Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
A man SHOULD be responsible for his actions while drunk. Women should, too. But if a man rapes while drunk, it's NOT the woman's responsibility or fault, no matter how drunk she is. A drunk woman is responsible for falling off the table, passing out in the car, and so on. But she's NOT responsible for getting raped.

Consensual sex while drunk has NOTHING to do with rape, which was repeated MANY times in the OP. Are we talking about rape or consensual sex? They are two different things and need to be discussed as such. The problem with the OP is that she mixed them together as if they are the same thing.

Ok, so here's a question for you regarding the topic of alcohol and rape. So say the man and woman are both drunk. When sober, the man is attracted to the woman, but while sober, the woman is not attracted to the man. So while both are drunk, the man makes advances, and the woman accepts them. They end up having sex. The next morning, the woman realizes who she slept with, and claims rape because she was drunk.

Is that rape?

I ask, because where I grew up, this was claimed a LOT. So many women never take responsibility for their actions while drunk, and claim rape all because they slept with a person they never would have sober.

Is this fair??

Now before anyone tries to claim that maybe the guy pushed himself on top of the girl, and forced it on her, let me tell you that during many of those times the girl was sitting on the guys lap making out in front of everyone before they found a more private location. Drunk or not, you can't tell me she didn't want it at the time.

So how can it be rape if she was in to it??

The worst part is, many will say she was raped, because she was drunk and wouldn't have done it sober. So how is it fair that a drunk girl can make advances, but be raped because she never would have sober?? I've seen so much of this stuff, that I honestly take all accusations of rape with a grain of salt, wanting to know more information before I demonize the guy.

All of this is because girls want guys to take responsibility for their actions, because girls never want to. They want to have their cake, and eat it too.

a reply to: Necrobile

If it's against her will, it's rape. Otherwise, it's consensual. Doesn't matter if she's drunk or sober. If she's passed out, it's rape.

All of this is because girls want guys to take responsibility for their actions, because girls never want to. They want to have their cake, and eat it too.

BS.

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.

If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.

I think it's funny that we've managed to make it so that women can comport themselves in any manner they wish, without any kind of repercussion, because men should know how to act..

Obviously any woman who is raped isn't to blame for her rape, the rapist is, but if you have a habit of poor decision making, then your outcomes are often going to be of poor quality.

Everybody is responsible for their own actions and surroundings. When my son does a bunch of drugs and ends up crashing his car, do I blame his drug dealer? Do I blame that pole that should have known he was coming down the way too fast?

This whole thing where we we've decided that some people have no personal responsibility while in public, and others have all the responsibility is stupid.

Sexual assault is not a gender specific issue, it requires work on both sides of the aisle.

~Tenth

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

You're right. They're not going to change because you keep putting the onus on women. How about we start holding men accountable? Not just violent black men but upstanding white men too. When a black guy rapes a white girl he is demolished. When a successful white man rapes a girl it is covered up and excused.

I get your point. I agree. Women should be careful.

Once again, to repeat YET AGAIN, you are correct. Women should be careful. I've agreed in almost every reply. I get your point and agree. I submit that this message has been out for MILLENIA.

Now to repeat my point, most women are careful. Most women who are raped are not giant drunk sluts (Even though that might be foolish of the woman it's still not her fault). So as Senator Gillabrand and Jon Stewartbsaid , let's try putting some "personal responsibility" on men to report their friends. A friend who raoes should not be protected but they often are.

Since I've addressed and agreed with your points of women needing to be careful how about you respond to my point? Men need to hold themselves and their friends accountable. Organizations (NFL/police/military for example) should not protect rapists no matter how valuable they are.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

You're right. They're not going to change because you keep putting the onus on women. How about we start holding men accountable? Not just violent black men but upstanding white men too. When a black guy rapes a white girl he is demolished. When a successful white man rapes a girl it is covered up and excused.

I get your point. I agree. Women should be careful.

Once again, to repeat YET AGAIN, you are correct. Women should be careful. I've agreed in almost every reply. I get your point and agree. I submit that this message has been out for MILLENIA.

Now to repeat my point, most women are careful. Most women who are raped are not giant drunk sluts (Even though that might be foolish of the woman it's still not her fault). So as Senator Gillabrand and Jon Stewartbsaid , let's try putting some "personal responsibility" on men to report their friends. A friend who raoes should not be protected but they often are.

Since I've addressed and agreed with your points of women needing to be careful how about you respond to my point? Men need to hold themselves and their friends accountable. Organizations (NFL/police/military for example) should not protect rapists no matter how valuable they are.

I agree. That men need blamed. Everyone has mentioned that. I think that's what the majority of people in this thread agree with is that it the rapists fault. They need to be put away for it. It's a matter of 'how do we make that happen'. Cos you know... We're led to believe we have a voice in what happens in the world... But we don't.

And obviously the military/police/NFL/other sports organizations aren't going to change.

a reply to: tavi45
I am a grandmother with grandsons. They truly are being educated to respect the female gender as their equals. I am making sure that they are aware of possible consequences for personal choices they make. Respect for others in all aspects is what all of our young children should be educated on...not telling them that there are differing special rules if you are male, female, young, or old. Such confusion divides groups and respect for others gets lost. My daughters are still responsible for the choices they make, so will my grandsons be. I can see where history had made mistakes, I choose to make a difference and learn from those mistakes. Too often society wants to dwell on the past for the sake of revenge...no good comes of that...it only shifts the focus of suffering! Learn from the past so as not to repeat will ensure a better future for all equally.

Edit add: As far as my grandsons 'should be terrified and walking on eggshells' comment...Why in the world should that be the case when they have not done anything wrong? Seriously, this demonizing groups of innocent individuals due to a small percentage F*cked up, is not going to ever resolve anything!

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
When my son does a bunch of drugs and ends up crashing his car, do I blame his drug dealer? Do I blame that pole that should have known he was coming down the way too fast?

That you would equate an inanimate pole hit by a car to a rapist is incredible to me. The pole has no mind of its own. It did not ACT. To imply that a rapist is as "innocent" as a pole hit by a car blows my mind!

To equate that to rape, I would say, "When my daughter does a bunch of drugs and ends up getting raped in a bar parking lot, do I blame the rapist?

OF COURSE I DO! I blame my daughter for doing drugs, but I don't blame her for getting raped.

Sexual assault is not a gender specific issue, it requires work on both sides of the aisle.

What does that mean? Women need to do more work to prevent getting sexually assaulted?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

OF COURSE I DO! I blame my daughter for doing drugs, but I don't blame her for getting raped.

You knew what I meant. Not that the rape is equatable to the car crash, but that the series of bad decisions that led to the situation isn't always entirely outside your control.

What does that mean? Women need to do more work to prevent getting sexually assaulted?

There needs to be less focus on the kind of education that teaches woman to be afraid of men, because they're all potential rapists and more education about how as a society we need to watch out for each other, regardless of whether or not we know each other.

There is some level of responsibility that is on YOU personally, when you are out in public. Especially if you are partaking in activities that lead you to being inebriated.

~Tenth

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

There needs to be less focus on the kind of education that teaches woman to be afraid of men, because they're all potential rapists and more education about how as a society we need to watch out for each other, regardless of whether or not we know each other. There is some level of responsibility that is on YOU personally, when you are out in public. Especially if you are partaking in activities that lead you to being inebriated.

There needs to be less focus on the kind of education that teaches woman to be afraid of men, because they're all potential rapists and more education about how as a society we need to watch out for each other, regardless of whether or not we know each other.

There is some level of responsibility that is on YOU personally, when you are out in public. Especially if you are partaking in activities that lead you to being inebriated.


Exactly! This deserves repeating.

edit on 9 28 2014 by CynConcepts because: Fixing missing quote

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

WHY can't we teach men not to rape???

Every time i read this i question the person's intelligence.

...

Rapist rape, men dont.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
... the series of bad decisions that led to the situation isn't always entirely outside your control.

"The situation" is rape. Not drugs or a car wreck. The woman's bad decisions did NOT lead to rape. The man's decision to rape her led to rape. And as I have said, I do take responsibility for my actions, and I think every person should. But the ACTION in the case of rape, is rape, not drugs, not alcohol, not a dark alley or her short skirt.

There is some level of responsibility that is on YOU personally, when you are out in public. Especially if you are partaking in activities that lead you to being inebriated.

I agree that I am responsible for ME and what I do. But if someone else ACTS upon me in public, whether I'm drunk or not, whether I'm wearing a short skirt or not, whether I'm in an alley or not, I am NOT responsible for their actions.

originally posted by: luciddream
Every time i read this i question the person's intelligence.

...

Rapist rape, men dont.

Did you see the post I was responding to? It said, "We can't teach PEOPLE not to rape." I agree with you, and if you had read more of my input in this thread, you would see that I am TOTALLY against the idea that all men are potential rapists.

Question my intelligence all you want, but read what I have said in the thread before coming after my intelligence.

No one said that the victim is responsible for the actual rape and the actions of the rapist. The victim is only responsible for their actions alone.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

I agree. But many people here, including you, seem to be saying that women are responsible for putting themselves in the position that got them raped. Am I misunderstanding that?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I agree that I am responsible for ME and what I do. But if someone else ACTS upon me in public, whether I'm drunk or not, whether I'm wearing a short skirt or not, whether I'm in an alley or not, I am NOT responsible for their actions

So why then am I considering a misogynist, ( not by your obviously) when I simply remark that the above is true?

Like any amount of teaching women that it's probably not a good idea to get black out drunk with questionable people is a bad thing?

There is far far too much political correctness when it comes to this issue. Especially if you look at rape from a non gender specific stand point.

~Tenth

a reply to: CynConcepts

Because at some point a group has to sacrifice willingly to right past wrongs. It's a shame that so many men for free passes for so long but saying "its not my fault, why should I pay?" Just prolongs the issue.

It's just like white people refusing to own up to slavery. OK you're right. You didn't own slaves but black people suffer from the effects of slavery and racism to this day. If you turn a blind eye to issues and say " its not me so I shouldn't have to do anything" you do nothing to help. Just because your individual actions didn't cause the problem doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it. Wrong is wrong is wrong.

Look at Israel/Palestine. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong. but when neither side sacrifices anything nothing changes.

Look at Christians/Muslims. Yeah most Christians didn't # up the middle east but when you absolve all Christians of the actions of their worst members you remove any responsibility to make changes.

End of the day women have suffered at the hands of men for a long time. Maybe men should make some sacrifices now, not because it's their fault but because sacrificing one's benefits to redress wrongs is for we move on.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

I agree. But many people here, including you, seem to be saying that women are responsible for putting themselves in the position that got them raped. Am I misunderstanding that?

Yes. You are misunderstanding that.

It's a woman's responsibility to make sure she is being a responsible person in public and not putting herself in situations that could turn harmful. Example that's been used this whole time: Don't get #faced with random people.

You're not responsible for that rape. You are responsible for your actions.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Your are trying to void the comman responsibiity of the victim.

In a city where there are high robberies, If someone leave their car doors open and got their things stolen... would you never ask the person "why did you leave the car door open?" or is that "victim blaming?"

Of course its not the car owners fault but could he have lowered his chance to have his things stolen?

I mean you cant stop the theif, they steal because what they are. The theif in this case is a constant factor that cant never be taken out of the equation.

You can start a class for "why stealing is bad"... how many theif would show up to the class? and if you force a certain population to take the class, it would not be effective because they never stole to begin with. In return it would only anger them for false profiling.

The rapist is a inevitable factor, it will be always be there, if you want to change that help research into why PEOPLE become rapists, serial killers, pedophiles etc.

When you reinforce people to not be careful or take responsibilty for their well being, things like this will happen more frequently.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
Like any amount of teaching women that it's probably not a good idea to get black out drunk with questionable people is a bad thing?

Teaching women that is not a questionable thing. We have been taught that for at least my whole life. There's nothing wrong with teaching women that there are situations out there that are best avoided. NOTHING. What's wrong is, if a woman goes against that advice, and ends up raped, telling her that she shares in the responsibility. That's what's wrong. She's NOT responsible for being raped, no matter what situation she put herself in.

There is far far too much political correctness when it comes to this issue. Especially if you look at rape from a non gender specific stand point.
~Tenth

Please. Female on male rape does exist. But it's only like .2% of the time. Rape is about power and control. And both genders have to potential to want it so badly that they take it without consent. But it's not, by ANY stretch of the imagination equal. You don't see organizations like the NFL, police departments and the US military protecting women who have been charged with rape. I THOUGHT that was what the thread was about. That's what Jon Stewart's quote was about. If we're talking about women going out, getting wasted and then crying "rape" the next morning, because they're ashamed, then it should have a different title and OP. I'm against that, by the way. LOL

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: CynConcepts

Because at some point a group has to sacrifice willingly to right past wrongs. It's a shame that so many men for free passes for so long but saying "its not my fault, why should I pay?" Just prolongs the issue.

It's just like white people refusing to own up to slavery. OK you're right. You didn't own slaves but black people suffer from the effects of slavery and racism to this day. If you turn a blind eye to issues and say " its not me so I shouldn't have to do anything" you do nothing to help. Just because your individual actions didn't cause the problem doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it. Wrong is wrong is wrong.

Look at Israel/Palestine. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong. but when neither side sacrifices anything nothing changes.

Look at Christians/Muslims. Yeah most Christians didn't # up the middle east but when you absolve all Christians of the actions of their worst members you remove any responsibility to make changes.

End of the day women have suffered at the hands of men for a long time. Maybe men should make some sacrifices now, not because it's their fault but because sacrificing one's benefits to redress wrongs is for we move on.

Wooooooow.
Or maybe if people just minded their own damn business in half of those situations, there wouldn't be a problem.
I hate when people bring slavery up, and say white people refuse to own up to it. No, white people owned up to it a long time ago. And I for one don't think that myself or anyone else should be held accountable for things that their ancestors may or may not have done. Black people still suffer because there are assholes in the world. Not because of whatever issue you think there still is with everyone.

No one should have to sacrifice something because someone else does something wrong. And when things like that happen there's a lot of unhappy people, and it causes even more problems.