Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

a reply to: TzarChasm

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Does that answer your question sufficiently?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Akragon

I guess. It isn't really the same thing. I'm judging you according to the Bible, whereas you're judging me according to...................

Really good question. might I have a go? Thank you your too kind. This question made me take a moment and consider...longer than usual I mean. What for instance determined our civil rights as granted by the government. Started in Rome as a religion based argument for freedom, resurrected (hehe) in great Britain based on citizen ship. And it was usually exercised in cases of legal discrimination against Catholics. But there is a differnce between legal rights and natural rights. Which coincidentally used to be used to challenge monarchs acting with divine authority. Inalienable rights. The things every good parent teaches their child. Which might explain both our morals and our audacity to challenge your god...and his divine authority.

I know that technically wasn't what you asked but I know you have also accused people here of judging god. And as I have just shown above, damn right they should. Judge him but give him a fair trial. We're not him after all. Last of all, there is a difference between pride and self respect. I know you mentioned that as well, pride being our downfall and stuff. That difference is the reason we no longer owe our allegience to England. It's the reason we send our men and women to die for other countries. If this god truly holds our destinies in his palm, that's a threat to our freedom isn't it? We could never know if he was secretly playing with our lives. Blowing us up and scattering us to the wind for fun. And we all know what he's like if things don't go his way. He breaks his misfit toys. He cuts the gordian knot, choosing to destroy instead of resolving. Yes put him on trial. And in a way you are on trial too. Well not you just your support in the defendant. Criticism is not judgment its us helping you build a better boat. Anything that holds water can keep it out.

Does the clay tell the potter what to do with it? Do toys tell their owner how they ought treat them?
We're created for the pleasure of God. He may do as He wills.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Does that answer your question sufficiently?

Please don't play that game with me. I want to read it in YOUR words.

a reply to: TzarChasm

My words simply echo what the Bible states. It isn't a game.

originally posted by: graphuto
Does the clay tell the potter what to do with it? Do toys tell their owner how they ought treat them?
We're created for the pleasure of God. He may do as He wills.

Ugh. That's just sad. Im sorry but you sound like women used to before they got their heads straight and demanded their rights.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

My words simply echo what the Bible states. It isn't a game.

And thats what's scary.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Scary to whom and for what reason? Why does it bother you? If you don't believe it then whatever. Why even argue against it? I don't see you going around into Harry Potter forums and the like, doing the same. Nothing we actually DO even affects you! It's what we believe. Sure, it may annoy you, but I'm sorry, no one has the right to not be annoyed.

Speaking of rights, where did humanity's rights supposedly derive from?
Anywhere BUT God right?
We evolved from pond scum into the beings we are now, and we what... created rmoral standards and rights for ourselves? When evolution is supposedly all about survival of the fittest?
It doesn't make sense.

a reply to: graphuto



You have no understanding of evolution I'd wager by the context you're using "survival of the fittest" in. And since you made it clear in previous posts that you don't care what other people believe I'm not going to spell it out for you. You try to mock the theory of evolution but you have absolutely no understanding of it nor a desire to try and understand it. You use God to fill in the gaps your lack of understanding creates. Please read a science book.

Show me the evidence our morals come from a God and we can go from there..

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Yeah I went to 12 years of public school and 6 years of college. I read the material. It's nonsense.

a reply to: graphuto

Well then it should be easy for you to debunk it and change the face of scientific understanding worldwide. You might even get a Nobel Prize!

originally posted by: graphuto
Nothing we actually DO even affects you!

Maybe not you, or the people of this forum. But one only needs to look around them to see how religious beliefs can have a negative impact on the world. Christianity has mellowed out over the generations but now Islam is having its turn to have an inquisition of sorts. What horrible things people have done, do, and may do in the future, in the name of religion, DOES have an affect on us.

Especially if people like you gained power and instituted the laws you said you would uphold if it was legal. Seperation of church and state is a beautiful thing.

originally posted by: graphuto
A couple of public executions would whip people into shape really quickly.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Did you know that "Seperation of Church and State" wasn't even actually in any of the founding documents? Did you know that it was in a letter?

Did you know that the purpose thereof was the keep the GOVERNMENT out of RELIGION. Not the other way around.

a reply to: graphuto

Would you like to present a case as to how our morals came from God?

a reply to: Akragon

so its based on words in a book not evidence

It rarely if ever follows the teaching of Jesus

curios, where are you getting your "teaching of Jesus" from and what's the evidence?

originally posted by: graphuto
Did you know that "Separation of Church and State" wasn't even actually in any of the founding documents? Did you know that it was in a letter? Did you know that the purpose thereof was the keep the GOVERNMENT out of RELIGION. Not the other way around.

100 correct...

I was blown away when I started to research this recently.

Also one has to understand that God is not the author of religion, man is.

The two are complete opposites.

"...the introduction and application of the “Separation Between Church and State” doctrine into the fabric of American culture is one of the greatest acts of fraud and deception ever to be perpetrated upon the American people. The doctrine is nothing more than a legal fiction brought into existence only by committing tremendous violence against the founders’ original vision for the country.

The BIG Lie: “Separation of Church and State” (Part 15)

The doctrine or separation of church and state is a fabrication of blatantly liberal, anti-Christian, dishonest, activist judges. In fact, the words,"separation of church and state" are only words taken out of context from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. They exist nowhere in the laws of our nation.

The Separation of Church and State Hoax

..."separation of church and state" is a gigantic fraud. Why? Because there is no separation of church and state. Government religion is a fact in the United States.

Court Unmasks Secularism as State "Religion"

"...the separation of church and state as understood today is a total fraud. It seems obvious that Founding Fathers vision is completely opposite to that of the ACLU or the liberal courts."

What the Founders believed regarding the Separation of Church and State

"the doctrine of separation of church and state is a scam..."

The Separation of Church and State Hoax

Most political conversations now initiated, concerning the separation of church and state, claim that the separation they speak of is based upon the U.S. Constitution. In reality, this phrase is found nowhere in the Constitution; neither is their argument.

Separation of Church and State: Then and Now

So before we can discuss the constitutionally protected rights of students at school, we have to dispel this sinister myth of the so-called “separation of church and state.” Like the proverbial monster hiding in a child’s closet, the “separation of church and state” is a pure figment of the imagination that has for far too long haunted us. It’s not in our Constitution, Bill of Rights, or any other of our nation’s founding documents.

Dispelling the Church-State Separation Myth at School

Mr. Patton claims that this is not a Christian nation. Is that right? The founders who built this great nation would disagree. One hundred fifty-five of the one hundred fifty-seven men who were considered America's founders were devout Christians! Thomas Jefferson, the man who coined the phrase ‘separation of Church and state’, it seems, did not abide by his very own ‘separation of Church and state’ doctrine. The reason he did not is because there was no such thing!

The Lie of Separation of Church and State

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

where does anything you "know" come from? other's right?

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power Colossians2

Maybe not you, or the people of this forum. But one only needs to look around them to see how religious beliefs can have a negative impact on the world. Christianity has mellowed out over the generations but now Islam is having its turn to have an inquisition of sorts. What horrible things people have done, do, and may do in the future, in the name of religion, DOES have an affect on us.

Especially if people like you gained power and instituted the laws you said you would uphold if it was legal.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

This is an incomplete listing of some very bad things that happened before the 20th Century. I've scoured the history books and collected most of the major atrocities that anyone has bothered to enumerate.However, just because an event is missing from these pages doesn't mean that it wasn't very bloody..Maybe the 20th Century really was more barbaric than previous centuries (as some people say), but you'll need more complete statistics to prove it. [n.1]
necrometrics.com...

The Bolsheviks who murdered the Russian Tsar Family and worked themselves into the Russian government, created the Russian Revolution and are responsible for all the horrors that afflicted Russia after their hostile takeover. The annihilation numbers are claimed to be between..60 Million to 120 Million Russian citizens murdered by their own government. Many European citizens were captured in addition to this number between 1941 and 1950 and taken to Russian slave labor camps if they were not executed. www.germanvictims.com...

Madman who starved 60million to death: Devastating book reveals how Mao's megalomania turned China into a madhouse
www.dailymail.co.uk...[/ exnews]

Persecution of Christians can be traced historically from the time of Jesus in the first century to the present time.[1]..has reported that over 100,000 Christians are violently killed annually because of some relation to their faith.[140] According to the World Evangelical Alliance, over 200 million Christians are denied fundamental human rights solely because of their faith.[141] Of the 100-200 million Christians under assault, the majority are persecuted in Muslim-dominated nations.[142] Christians suffer numerically more than any other faith groups or groups without faith in the world. Of the world's three largest religions Christians are the most proportionally persecuted with 80% of all acts of religious discrimination being directed at Christians[143] who only make up 33% of the world's population.[144]

Most people in the West would be surprised by the answer to the question: who are the most persecuted people in the world? According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular group with members in 38 states worldwide, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians.

The Centre for the Study of Global Christianity in the United States estimates that 100,000 Christians now die every year, targeted because of their faith – that is 11 every hour.www.independent.co.uk...

Why are Christians, as a new Pew report documents, the most persecuted religious group in the world? And why is their persecution occurring primarily throughout the Islamic world?..these faiths tend to be coterminous with their respective ethnicities: Buddhists, Asians; Judaism, Jews; Hinduism, Hindus.. www.frontpagemag.com...

originally posted by: Rustami
a reply to: Akragon

so its based on words in a book not evidence

It rarely if ever follows the teaching of Jesus

curios, where are you getting your "teaching of Jesus" from and what's the evidence?

Same book mostly, though not entirely... but you're comparing a mythical land of fire, pain and torture with a way to live ones life...

The evidence is the change in ones life if they follow said teachings... which is testable

Where as hell is... Well, a fear based myth designed to entice conversion...

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: TzarChasm

Scary to whom and for what reason? Why does it bother you? If you don't believe it then whatever. Why even argue against it? I don't see you going around into Harry Potter forums and the like, doing the same. Nothing we actually DO even affects you! It's what we believe. Sure, it may annoy you, but I'm sorry, no one has the right to not be annoyed.

...theres a harry potter forum?!?! must locate...

Speaking of rights, where did humanity's rights supposedly derive from?
Anywhere BUT God right?
We evolved from pond scum into the beings we are now, and we what... created rmoral standards and rights for ourselves? When evolution is supposedly all about survival of the fittest?
It doesn't make sense.

Classically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature — both social and personal — and deduce binding rules of moral behavior from it.

en.wikipedia.org...