You have all been duped.

I will quote something off the US Airforce page about Rosswel, tell me, does this sound logical?

"Aliens" observed in the New Mexico desert were actually anthropomorphic test dummies that were carried aloft by U.S. Air Force high altitude balloons for scientific research.

www.af.mil...

WHY in HELLS name would they put TEST dummies on WEATHER BALLOONS? it MAKES no sense, not one bit of sense, were they curious what a fall from great height would do to a pilot? I highly doubt it...

It JUST doesn't make sense...Frankly, I would be more comfortable knowing we are all alone on this planet, but evidence proofs otherwise...

My question again about the old UFO paintings...

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Then why do they resemble current UFO pics so much?? And why is there a UFO pic taken in the 19th century by astronomer Jose Bonilla??

www.worldofthestrange.com...

Nice pistol Frosty. What is it.

Originally posted by Frosty
Why does everyone assume these paintings are legit proof of UFO's and not just works of the authors imagination, pure fiction. Where are the links to ancient text that describe these ancient UFO's in paintings? It's pure fiction and you have taken it a step to far by wanting to believe to the point to where you convence yourself without any reasonable evidence, such as people have convinced themselves of the existence of Atlantis.

Are you choosing from the same painting what is fiction and what is real? Or are you also suggesting the virgin Mary was also just in the painters imagination?

If you are selectively choosing what corresponds with your already ingrown belief, are you in effect then being fair to yourself or are you just acknowleding the evidence that confirms your belief and labeling the rest as imagination on the painters behalf?

You can see that your arguements are not having a huge impact on us here in the thread (you did ofcause also choose a forum for ALIENS to bring forth these thoughts, so there should be no surprise)
but are you being fair to yourself?


Sincerly

Cade

Originally posted by thelibra
Do I think it's visited us yet? Probably not... if so, we'd be toast.

Originally posted by LadyVRealy!? Why is that?..and you are right..some of has had encounters and therefore, while we can't "prove" it, we know. Aaaaanyway...why do you think we would be toast? Doesn't make sense to me.

While, of course, I do leave myself open to the possibility that there have been visitations by aliens in the past, I think it far more likely that there are sentient extra-terrestrial species that, thankfully, have not encountered us yet.

As for why "we would be toast", my answer is based off of the only life forms I am currently well-educated in, Earth Life.

Every animal on Earth needs at least basic resources: food, mates, water, or shelter. From the lowly worm in the dirt, to the fish in the sea, to birds, to humans. And almost all of these animals stake out a territory of their own. The more advanced or specialized the needs, the more likely the chances of staking out the territory. This territory is, almost without fail, brutally defended against others who seek out territory of their own, so that their own needs can be fulfilled. This can be observed from the insect kingdom, to wolf packs, to tribes of monkeys, to human wars over the centuries. Life is inherently both gregarious and xenophobic. There are exceptions, but these exceptions are few and far between in comparison. Xenophobia is the rule. The more advanced the life form, the more xenophobic, because the territorial needs are more as well.

Now imagine how advanced a lifeform that has the capability to travel planets must be. We are quite clever little apes, and we haven't even visited the moon since the 70's. Say a species had the ability to construct ships and man crews that could travel between Pluto and Earth with a craft that is only the size of a house, or smaller. Now imagine how advanced they would have to be to travel between stars. Their resource needs would be almost incomprehensible to us. Their need for territory would like be that of an entire moon or planet.

If they were to discover Earth, this species would care little for the advances of human civilization, except as a nuisance to be dealt with. We would be viewed in the same light as the Aztecs were by the Spanish conquistidors. They had buildings, weapons of war, art, religion, and--racial differences aside--pretty much looked the same as their discoverers... but this did nothing to stop the Spanish from slaughtering these people for nothing more than piles of gold. The technological difference was only a matter of metals, gunpowder, and the ability to cross the ocean. Imagine how uncaring the human race's discoverers would be if the technological difference were the ability to cross the vast reaches of space, or dimensional travel, and a comparatively unlimited energy source for their weapons...

They would see nothing more than a planet, rich with resources, if they bothered to see us at all. Perhaps we would be lucky enough to have nothing they want, and they would pass us by, but I doubt it. They would come, take what they want, and if we offered some token resistance, we would be slaughtered. If we showed enough of a sign of intelligence to catch their attention, we would probably be enslaved, in the same way that ants or humans have enslaved one another, because we would have just enough intelligence to be taught how to serve.

Now, I do leave myself open to the story-book possibility that our discoverers might have the same warm hearts and minds of traders. Meaning that instead of seeing a planet full of resources to be taken by force, they would see an opulent orb to be taken advantage of, and scammed out of any and all interstellar commodities before we knew what they were worth.

For instance, water. We are surrounded by it, it falls from the sky, we have it frozen at both tips of the planet, and is freely wasted on water-park statues and swimming pools. This is not dissimilar to how ancient indigenous cultures treated gold, silver, and precious stones. The Europeans, whom had mastered the crafting of glass, and though it was still slightly a luxury item, could easily offload tons and tons of glass beads to Native Americans in exchange for land, gold, jewels, and just about anything else, because the of the fact that, while glass could be made just about anywhere, precious minerals remained hard to find. Water, on a calm planetary surface with enough temperature range to satisfy nearly any species, a near-lack of tectonic activity, and enough of an atmosphere to block out constant meteors and radiation, would seem a rather difficult thing to find. The only other surface we absolutely know it exists is Titan, a frozen wasteland of a planet. Perhaps this mercantile species decides to trade us something that the rest of the "civilized" galaxy takes for granted (such as clean energy) in exchange for the moon of Titan. They break it down, haul it off with friendly waves, bid their goodbyes, and leave with a galactic fortune on their hands, which could have been ours... and we may not find out until many decades, if not centuries, later when we begin to make contact with other races... perhaps by then we have bargained away our oceans, our lakes... our polar caps... By the time we discover the truth, we are a relatively impoverished species.

Perhaps our first contact is with the galactic equivolent of Nazis, and we decide to join with them in an effort to appear civilized, and join some interplanetary union, where we agree to share our resources for their protection and contact and trade with other stars in that union? And by the time we find out the rest of the galaxy hates them, we might be so entwined as to not care, and be convinced that our side is the right side.

So, my friend, those are our two branches for future contact with aliens, and either way, their only interest in Earth would be as a means to exploit resources or gain territory. With absolutely no frame of reference for the rest of the races in the galaxy, we could easily be conquered without a single shot being fired. And that is why I say "we would be toast."

www.af.mil...

WHY in HELLS name would they put TEST dummies on WEATHER BALLOONS? it MAKES no sense, not one bit of sense, were they curious what a fall from great height would do to a pilot? I highly doubt it...

****edited to fix quoting again.. grrrr

And yes, didn't that whole project mogul not start until like 1949, or 1950, and roswell was 1947, I thought I had read, and seen on TV that project mogul wasn't launched until AFTER roswell. I'll try to find a link.

[edit on 12/8/2004 by diana]

Originally posted by Roper
Nice pistol Frosty. What is it.

It is THE .22 Caliber1880 Brass Frame Tranter which was given to Inspector Donald Swanson of Scottland Yard...who by the way was assigned to the little known case of Jack the Ripper. IF you have the money why not buy? antiqueguns.biz...

Cade, I was trying to make a case (poor though it seems) that the so called ufo can be interpreted as anything and isn't confined to nesesarily one object. I also tried to state the case that since the existence of dragons was a popular belief at the time, that the object in the background could be a similar mythological creature, being, entity, or object other than an ufo. People in those times mistook dino skeltons as proof of dragons, a strange bird in flight could be the interpretation for the objecct in the background.

Guns...Perhaps I should go back to the gun forum I always posted at...*sighs*

Right here (as expected) I only get flamed for posting my thoughts...

Atleast in that gun forum they respect me...

Sorry, way off topic here...

Anyway, everybody should view the UFO phenomena in their own way, some think they are definitly aliens, some think it's the Gov', some say it's a weird natural occurance...some say there are no UFO's...

We can't force our believes on others right? we don't force Christianity, Islam etc on other people...well some try, but not people on this board...

I don't even know what the point is to argue...

``

with so, too much to cover...i'll be real brief

as for those fiery, comet like (supposed) UFOs
-with respect to LadyV for the pics-

The Romans then later the Vikings and then celts & others==from
50CE to the 1st Crusades built an evolving series of 'seige engines'
Gyns, onagers, catapults, bricoles, mangonel-> Trebuchets' !!

*later able to loft 200lb stones some 300 yds, accurately!
what if 'greek fire' pitch/tar/sulpher, were juiced on these lobbed stones..
! viola ! a fiery/comet ~~
ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu...

~~
?? isn't this pic??? Style:1014 "Tel Aviv Hat" familiar as 'UFO' sillouette
in several of the artworks??


www.millerhats.com...


OTHER art representations, claimed as UFOs...i would say are artsy ways
of suggesting 'spiritual activities'.

KEEP in mind the artists in the mideviel times were most likely Alchemists
and adep[t at occultisms & magic/sorceries...and were keenly aware of
phenomena like 'Saint Elmo's Fire'...

I think it would follow, the artists wanted to insert some of their own
'secrets' & messages in the art....for discerning eyes or future enlightened
students of their own cults/disciplines/'schools'

...after all, their 'works' were not supposed to be realistic 'photographs'....but "religious inspirations"

keep on the hunt

[quote]quote: Lol LadyV, van goghs models didnt have square heads either im sure!

That would of course be the Cubist painter Picasso, not Van Gogh...


Thankyou Gazrock, my mistake.

Well said ST Udio !

Let me clarify...AGAIN, for those who call me "in denial" about images in paintings.

I have no doubt there are unknowns in our skys today, likewise its not hard to beleive they have been in our skys since ancient times.
YES some of the images in those paintings look like the typical flying saucer, BUT, it dosent mean they are!
Ever watched a scifi ? we can imagine all sorts of fantastic crap and make it seem real, i.e a huge, 150ft long flying dog like creature in the kids movie "the never ending story"
Why are you so adament that early folk could not imagine machines that flew? Sorry thats a bit arrogant. and self serving. You accuse me of selective beleif? Pfft!

I will say its entirely possible that early folk saw ufos, even cave men too.
This does not eqate to it being a Fact! In anycase, I said long ago ,I BELEIVE they exist! What more do want? You want me to humbly swallow anything you present as fact without question? Thats not denying ignorance ,thats living it.

As for Jesus possibly being an alien, who the hell cares? I beleive in what he taught and I try to best of my ability to live in that manner, I dont push my beleif on others. If he was an ET then good luck to him, Im just saying that there was nothing about him dissappearing from the cross, or saying, "i am not of this world" in the indoctrination I got as a kid. Maybe you got the ET version bible? What difference does it make?
It doesent sway my beleif in either ufos or jesus one iota.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by instar]

Originally posted by Frosty
We have images of chupacabra, big foot, loch ness, and dinosaurs which have never been seen by asingle human. Do not be ignorant towards the minds ability. The idea for flying saucers came from Hollywood and sci-fi books, most notably War of the Worlds (which they are now remaking).

Has anyone here atcually read Blue Book, or are you people simply going by word of mouth by what you heard from someone else? Why not come to your own conclusion in this matter?

UFO's in ancient times? They also believed in dragons, titans, and cyclopses, the UFO's they may have seen or corraborated are not too far from these other "legends".

People people people,

What's with the "All or Nothing" views? Isn't there room for both ET's and government cover-ups? Does it have to be one way or the other? It's starting to sound like politics in here
Are there top-secret military craft that they probably want to keep secret. Yeah, probably.
Is there intelligent life in the universe besides humans? Yeah, probably.
Isn't there room for both to co-exist in our world?

How about an open-minded discussion?

I've researched the UFO phenomena for two decades and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence of an alien presence. We accept peoples eye-witness testimony in our legal system do we not? Why should this be different?

Let's look at a particular UFO case: The lights over Phoenix
Multiple witnesses say they saw a "triangular craft" over the city. There is tons of photographic and video evidence to support this. Now I ask you, "When did the military start creating craft that don't make any sound, can hover in place and are almost a mile wide? Amd why would they bring it over a major metropolitan area if they wanted it to be a secret? That argument simply doesn't make sense.

Frosty: Have you researched beyond Project Blue Book? (which by the way ended with over 700 cases out of around 12000 that were "unidentifiable and unexplainable" even by their standards)

Have you seen the STS-80 video footage from the space shuttle? Do we (humans) have craft capable of accelerating above Mach 25 in space? If so, where did this technology come from? Why is it not being used by NASA?

Have you seen the "Out of the Blue" video? (IMO the best video on this subject to date) Since when did we start shooting down our own test missiles using UFOs? This video is full of credible, military and government eye-witnesses including astronauts who share their experiences.
Buy it, watch it, and then come back on here and tell us believers that it's all non-sense.
Link Here

One last thing, with respect to the ancient days, have you ever read the book of Ezekiel? Sounds a lot like UFO's and aliens to me! But this is strictly subjective.
www.bibleufo.com...
www.themystica.com...

Peace,
~Jammer+

EDIT: Fixed link & Snipped Quote

[edit on 9-12-2004 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

instar and Gazrok beat me to the punch, I'll add my little ditty anyway-

Good thread Frosty, it's about time someone brought this issue squarely to the front.

PROOF, I want proof! I laughed at those posts. Like UFO believers have proof.

Personally I believe in UFOs. That doesn't change my amusement with many of the posters in this thread. Some even made a point of posting that Frosty is either too new (to have a decent opinion), a point whore (so what), or some other flit from the side.

The old paintings prove zero- how about Da Vinci and the last supper? He wasn't there, he imagined it. All those cave drawings and other paintings- big deal, the artist was trying to convey something. Maybe it was a UFO maybe it was 'that thoughts have wings.' These things we will NEVER know.

Now as to circumstantial evidence and hypothesis- this is where I believe in UFOs.

Like the Titanic- I have seen no proof that it sank because it hit an ice berg instead of having an internal explosion, but based upon circumstantial evidence I do believe the ice berg story.

Props Frosty

Originally posted by Frosty
Cade, I was trying to make a case (poor though it seems) that the so called ufo can be interpreted as anything and isn't confined to nesesarily one object. I also tried to state the case that since the existence of dragons was a popular belief at the time, that the object in the background could be a similar mythological creature, being, entity, or object other than an ufo. People in those times mistook dino skeltons as proof of dragons, a strange bird in flight could be the interpretation for the objecct in the background.

Bur ofcause it can, but Mr. Bush could be interpreted as a Democrat. Anything can be interpreted right and wrong. It does not counter argue that Mr. Bush is a republican if I find a few issues where he thinks like a democrat. Ofcause you can find other interpretations for what is seen in the picture, this is obvious.

To explain away something is the easiest thing in the world my friend. They will not show themselves to you as long as you don't want to, so you are safe. They respect the universal law of free will. You have nothing to worry about at all. If you would like to see them, ask for it, one day it will happen.

I have never seen a UFO, but I know several people who has. Recently I have had two good friends tell me how they each knew someone who was in telepathic contact with them. One of these two different men, was asked if he wanted to come aboard their craft. There were 3 crafts infront of him when they asked him.

I know I will see them soon, I know we will meet soon, I can feel the time is comming very soon.
Can't wait, but also one must keep a "grounded" approach, they know if it's right your us to have such an experience or not.

Einstein said: Few are those who look with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. Open your eyes my friend the evidence is all around you. The world is being watched and cared for by incredible technological creatures from other civilasations. This is good news, it's comforting.

Perhaps it's not the aliens who are to be feared but those creatures here on earth who manipulates the whole world into believing that 9/11 was done by Osama, and that Iraq had WMD etc. Those creatures are who I'm worried about.


Sincerly

Cade

Cade, see if you can get the aliens to tell you when they'll give us disclosure of sorts. Also, see if they'll tell you how to make a simple 50 watt free energy device, I'm not kidding.

You have an amazing oppertunity if your being truthful about this.

Has anyone here atcually read Blue Book, or are you people simply going by word of mouth by what you heard from someone else? Why not come to your own conclusion in this matter?

I've read Blue Book, quite often, as I've done a few college papers and speeches on the subject back in the day...

You're STILL ignoring the fact that most of the brass involved with that project have ADMITTED the project was bogus, and predisposed to trying to dismiss as many cases as possible as explained. If YOU had read the files, you'd see that some of the cases explained as "birds" or "swamp gas" are conclusions that do NOT fit the details of the sightings in question. Perhaps we need a new thread on Blue Book, since that seems to be the sole basis for your argument of the reason for the phenomenon? We could then debate the merits of the project. Of course, you'll then quickly realize the project for what it was....a public campaign to lessen the fears of the public...in essence, "nothing to see here folks", while in the background, projects like SIGN and GRUDGE, were trying to REALLY figure out what was buzzing our defense bases, aircraft, etc.

As for the artwork, as I've already explained...many feature the viewers looking up at objects in the sky that EXACTLY fit modern UFOs, with NO interpretation needed by the observer. Regardless of what you THINK the artist is trying to convey, it doesn't change the FACT that the IDEA of a strange, unidentified object, with the shape of modern UFOs, could be seen in the sky inspiring awe in viewers. Therefore, the idea that the government started this idea to coverup their projects, is inherently false.

Likewise, you've failed to address WHY such sightings have occured in even third world nations with no such aircraft programs, and how despite these people being cut off from modern pop culture, they describe the same crafts and beings.

Originally posted by Gazrok

Has anyone here atcually read Blue Book, or are you people simply going by word of mouth by what you heard from someone else? Why not come to your own conclusion in this matter?

I've read Blue Book, quite often, as I've done a few college papers and speeches on the subject back in the day...

You're STILL ignoring the fact that most of the brass involved with that project have ADMITTED the project was bogus, and predisposed to trying to dismiss as many cases as possible as explained. If YOU had read the files, you'd see that some of the cases explained as "birds" or "swamp gas" are conclusions that do NOT fit the details of the sightings in question. Perhaps we need a new thread on Blue Book, since that seems to be the sole basis for your argument of the reason for the phenomenon? We could then debate the merits of the project. Of course, you'll then quickly realize the project for what it was....a public campaign to lessen the fears of the public...in essence, "nothing to see here folks", while in the background, projects like SIGN and GRUDGE, were trying to REALLY figure out what was buzzing our defense bases, aircraft, etc.

As for the artwork, as I've already explained...many feature the viewers looking up at objects in the sky that EXACTLY fit modern UFOs, with NO interpretation needed by the observer. Regardless of what you THINK the artist is trying to convey, it doesn't change the FACT that the IDEA of a strange, unidentified object, with the shape of modern UFOs, could be seen in the sky inspiring awe in viewers. Therefore, the idea that the government started this idea to coverup their projects, is inherently false.

Likewise, you've failed to address WHY such sightings have occured in even third world nations with no such aircraft programs, and how despite these people being cut off from modern pop culture, they describe the same crafts and beings.

Exact;y, the words in bold prove most of what you are saying as a modern day prejudice to what an artist 500 years ago might have interpreted as a glider that they had designed or something completly different.

There has never been any proof, beyond the lens, of an out of earth entity craft being slavaged. People talk frequently about Roswell being the first time the US gov confiscated a craft, but how? How did the government know where the craft was at, and why would an interstellar species capable of light years of travel crash in the NM desert?

Frosty, it was speculated the alledged Roswell craft crashed due to electromagnetic interference cause by a wild electrical storm during the night of the crash. How would an ET nessesarily be able to predict the effect of bad weather on its craft, or the bad weather itself for that matter?

Originally posted by instar
Frosty, it was speculated the alledged Roswell craft crashed due to electromagnetic interference cause by a wild electrical storm during the night of the crash. How would an ET nessesarily be able to predict the effect of bad weather on its craft, or the bad weather itself for that matter?

Lightning,? Why would it be flying at such low altitudes in the first place, do we have any proof to this claim, I find this hard to believe because our aircraft today do not simply crash due to lightning; still it does not explain how the government knew of its whereabouts.

Originally posted by XL5
Cade, see if you can get the aliens to tell you when they'll give us disclosure of sorts. Also, see if they'll tell you how to make a simple 50 watt free energy device, I'm not kidding.

You have an amazing oppertunity if your being truthful about this.

You say your not kidding, well you made me smile anyway Meeting visitors from another part of your universe and going "hey, yo, nice to meet ya', so anyway, how DO you make those 50 watt free energy devices anyway?"

I am being truthful about this, I'm not trying to be ironic or condecending. I've never seen a UFO, I've never met them either. I can feel that I will soon. When I meet them I will try and ask them how to make a 50 watt free energy device, we'll see if they will tell us. However evidence point to the fact that we may already know, and that we may not have to wait for me myself and I meeting our visitors. If you are being truthful about your concern about free energy you might find these links interesting:

www.newenergymovement.org...
www.netro.ca... (talks about the coverup of free energy + UFO's)
cheniere.org...
www.zpower.net...



Sincerly

Cade