You have all been duped.

Cade, I am in agreement with you. I do not believe in UFO/ET, I know UFO/ET exist, because I have proof:

The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
A statement or argument used in such a validation.

The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.

Can it be locked now?

Not my forum, not my call, hehe...

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Cade, I am in agreement with you. I do not believe in UFO/ET, I know UFO/ET exist, because I have proof:

The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Okay, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not interested in another fight. I just want to know what your proof is. I'm genuinely curious. Is it photos? video? alien artifacts? an alien itself? Please share with us.

And again, I don't mean this in even a remotely condescending way, you're just the first person I've seen on this board who says that they have proof.

Originally posted by thelibra
Okay, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not interested in another fight. I just want to know what your proof is. I'm genuinely curious. Is it photos? video? alien artifacts? an alien itself? Please share with us.

And again, I don't mean this in even a remotely condescending way, you're just the first person I've seen on this board who says that they have proof.

Me too. Proof is a rather hard call, say for instance I was camping in the woods, I am picked up by Aliens we fly around the moon a couple times and they bring me back. Is that proof? For me of course it is. But they left no tracks, No evidence, nothing. So is this proof for society at large? Nope.

I believe in the Aliens and as I have said we have pretty much a smoking gun at Roswell, Tons of witnessess, even the Military its self admited that they had a saucer for a time. But is that PROOF? As much as I would love to say yes, the answer is no. I am sure that its there but not in any hands thay would admit it.

If you really have proof, some thing that can be weighed, measured, etc; than you are the most important person I know of, and would LOVE to see it.

I don't know Amuk, the use of hallucinatory drugs is alsways a question with people who claim to have seen a UFO. Another question is wether these people who have seen UFO's are guilty of wanting to believe. Did they really see a UFO or did they see a shooting star, helicopter, swamp gases, weather baloons, etc.

Again, why is it that it took 30 years after the UFO crash for anyone to come out with the accounts of bodies, which is what made the Roswell incident what it is today?

Logic is also another great reason as to why we have not been visited by aliens. why would alien species capable of interstellar travel make it all this way and not contact us? Why would they continue to just hover above in the skies and why would they be so susceptible to lighting and the harsh New Mexico terrain? Simply because it has not happened.

Originally posted by Frosty
I don't know Amuk, the use of hallucinatory drugs is always a question with people who claim to have seen a UFO. Another question is wether these people who have seen UFO's are guilty of wanting to believe. Did they really see a UFO or did they see a shooting star, helicopter, swamp gases, weather baloons, etc

For me I grew up in the sixties and would know the difference between an acid trip and being abducted by Aliens, but you just proved my point about Proof, without any hard evidence (alien DNA, something from the craft, etc I don't have proof,I may know it but that doesn't mean I can prove it. I automatically discount all lights in the sky which are by definition UFOs (unidentified flying objects) but it a huge leap of faith to claim it full of Anal probing Aliens.

Again, why is it that it took 30 years after the UFO crash for anyone to come out with the accounts of bodies, which is what made the Roswell incident what it is today?

There are several ways to look at this, for one I don't think it took thirty years for ANY info on the bodies to leak out. And another reason is a lot of those who seen them were soldiers and having been one myself if told to forget about an incident you forgot about it, or you ran the risk of spending a LONG time locked up. A lot is coming out know because most are old and dying and don't want to take this lie to the grave, but again that is just a guess not proof.

Logic is also another great reason as to why we have not been visited by aliens. why would alien species capable of interstellar travel make it all this way and not contact us?

This is really quite easy to answer. Why don't we give the Amazon bushmen nukes? Why don't we let children play with Hand grenades? We are at a cusp that will see us become a fully civilized world or a burnt out radioactive cinder, now is not a good time to give us energy that is AT LEAST anti matter maybe even more potent.

Why would they continue to just hover above in the skies and why would they be so susceptible to lighting and the harsh New Mexico terrain? Simply because it has not happened.

No one knows why they crashed IF they did it was probably some malfunction on the ship itself, any "lightning" probably came FROM the ship.

Do you have PROOF the it didn't happen? Remember the same people you believe when they say balloon you disbelieve when they say disc. The only thing the two statements prove is the Government will lie to you.

We are in the same boat, two theories and no proof for either

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Cade, I am in agreement with you. I do not believe in UFO/ET, I know UFO/ET exist, because I have proof:

The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Okay, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not interested in another fight. I just want to know what your proof is. I'm genuinely curious. Is it photos? video? alien artifacts? an alien itself? Please share with us.

And again, I don't mean this in even a remotely condescending way, you're just the first person I've seen on this board who says that they have proof.

Well I've said it too several times, but what needs to be understood is that those who can't fit aliens into their minds will simply dismiss it. To dismiss something only requires only requires simple words like "it's a fake", "that does not prove anything" etc. You can never convince someone who does not want to be convinced and many are here on ATS alien forum to convince themselves and others that it's not true, but not because of the lack of evidence.

If your into exploring look for documentaries such as:

� The Disclosure Project 4 hour Witness video (am I supposed to dismiss 500 witnesses who want's to testify before congress, with background in military, intelligence and with corporate careers? People have been convicted to the electric chair with only 1 witness. Many have dismissed this project which only shows how irrational those who deny has to be these days if they can't chance their minds.)

� The Secret NASA transmissions (Documentary)

� Evidence: The case for the NASA UFO

� Out of the blue (documentary)

� Betty and Barney Hill story (several books and movies on this old abduction incident)

� Look for documentaries on the soviet UFO's (since the iron curtain fell a lot of classified documents fell into the hands of those who wants to uncover and not cover up.)

Many regard it as weak to "change ones mind", but I will comfort them with these words:" A man who does not change his mind, is a man who never grows".


If this material is new to you, you better fasten your seatbelt, cuase your in for a ride. We are not alone, they are here, observing. I think it's very comforting to know that someone with a higher understanding are watching us, because when I look around in our world I get a little worried.

This is the most important knowledge in our time


Sincerly

Cade

Well, proof, is an argument or evidence(s), that compells the mind to accept an assertion. I started researching ET/UFO a few years ago, initially skeptical, though open-minded to the possibility. I found myself surrounded in heaps of evidence supporting the proposition that ET/UFO is a real phenomena.

There is no singular piece of standalone proof, but there is a huge body of evidence that is proof of the veracity of the phenomena:

1. Millions of reported sightings and close encounters of UFO's and ET's
2. Mass sightings
3. Hundreds of thousands of cases that support the ET hypothesis
4. Thousands of cases of Radar-returns, radar-visuals and pilot chases
5. Nasa Space shuttle footage
6. Hundreds of testimonials from experts, colonels, generals, pilots, scientists, intelligence(CIA, NSA)
7. Declassified UFO files: MJ12 and Rendelsham
8. Government admission of captured UFO in Roswell 1947, corroborated by 500 witnesses and a transparent cover-up.
9. Historical documentation and depiction of UFO and ET beings, from every culture and every time period.
10. The quantum leap in human technology after 1947 and the soaring of the defence budget to more than $1 trillion
11. The confirmed existence of Area 51 and the black world
12. The confirmed existence of the shadow government
13. The statistical impossibility that we are the only intelligent life form in the universe, given that the conditions for life, as we know them are abundant in the universe, and the Drake equation estimates a million civilizations in the milkyway galaxy alone.
14. The fact that space travel is a reality, and even subluminal speeds, are adequate for space exploration.

Now consider the following cases:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So, I can say without any hestitation, whatsoever, that there IS proof of UFO/ET. To be honest anyone that says there isn't, is either lying or just plain ignorant.




[edit on 22-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Cade
Well I've said it too several times, but what needs to be understood is that those who can't fit aliens into their minds will simply dismiss it. To dismiss something only requires only requires simple words like "it's a fake", "that does not prove anything" etc. You can never convince someone who does not want to be convinced and many are here on ATS alien forum to convince themselves and others that it's not true, but not because of the lack of evidence.

Hey, man, if anyone''s trying to keep an open mind, it's me. But I keep my mind open to all possibilities, and choose the most rational one based off of the proof at hand, and logical deduction. While your list of documentaries, some of which I've seen, is comprehensive, it is not neccesarilly "proof".

To understand what I mean, consider that a documentary telling the story of sitings, or depictions of UFOs from ancient times, and other such, are evidence but not proof. I try to take as open-minded an approach as possible to the subject without being swayed too much by any single piece of evidence. I suppose you could say it's an eternal courtroom drama inside my head. I listen to arguements and evidence proposed by one side, then I listen to the other side to see if it is succesfully debunked. If it is debunked satisfactorily, I dismiss that evidence. If not, I catalogue it for future reference. I consider other alternatives for an explanation. It's not that I don't want to be convinced, I just have to consider all sides to the arguement.

But evidence can be argued against in some way. Proof is indisputable. Bits of strange metal from a reported siting are evidence. Eye-witness testimony is evidence.

Proof, on the other hand, would be something that can either be produced, or reproduced, and is inarguably so. For instance, alien DNA with 400 memory segments, or the wreckage of a craft, or some sort of techological gadget not possible with even our black-ops research, a living gray, in person. Something that can be shown, displayed, produced, or examined on demand. Not grainy questionable footage, but hard-core proof.

So while I cannot say for certain, one way or the other, I don't think asking about a claim of proof is out of line. I'll accept "evidence" and investigate it and counterpoints, but have yet to see "proof" of either side's arguement.

Originally posted by Frosty
I don't know Amuk, the use of hallucinatory drugs is alsways a question with people who claim to have seen a UFO. Another question is wether these people who have seen UFO's are guilty of wanting to believe. Did they really see a UFO or did they see a shooting star, helicopter, swamp gases, weather baloons, etc.

Again, why is it that it took 30 years after the UFO crash for anyone to come out with the accounts of bodies, which is what made the Roswell incident what it is today?

Logic is also another great reason as to why we have not been visited by aliens. why would alien species capable of interstellar travel make it all this way and not contact us? Why would they continue to just hover above in the skies and why would they be so susceptible to lighting and the harsh New Mexico terrain? Simply because it has not happened.

Who would research that which they fear? Who would research what they don't understand? Only those who put truth over comfort.

From time to time, you reveal how much you have studied the phenomena of which we are talking. My friend, I for one am not trying to convince you, your beliefe is your own choice and right and does not constitute or alter reality, what ever it might be.

If lack of comprehensive ability is your first trait, don't let ignorance be your second.

You must be searching since you spend so much time in an alien forum, and this shows you do have one very important quality dorming somewhere deep inside you, curiosity.

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious."
-- Albert Einstein

"Two men sat behind prison bars, one saw the mud the other saw the stars"
I wish you good luck my friend in finding the wonder of our universe, it belongs to you too.


Sincerly

Cade

Originally posted by Frosty

Again, why is it that it took 30 years after the UFO crash for anyone to come out with the accounts of bodies, which is what made the Roswell incident what it is today?

That comment just shows you're own ignorance on the subject.

But evidence can be argued against in some way. Proof is indisputable. Bits of strange metal from a reported siting are evidence. Eye-witness testimony is evidence.

There is proof of that in Roswell 1947, of a strange metal, as thin as tin foil, that does not dent, burn or cut, and returns to it's original shape post-stress. It was handeled by dozens of people, as well as the air force and a colonel. Today, that technology is known as shape memory alloys.

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by Cade
Well I've said it too several times, but what needs to be understood is that those who can't fit aliens into their minds will simply dismiss it. To dismiss something only requires only requires simple words like "it's a fake", "that does not prove anything" etc. You can never convince someone who does not want to be convinced and many are here on ATS alien forum to convince themselves and others that it's not true, but not because of the lack of evidence.

Hey, man, if anyone''s trying to keep an open mind, it's me. But I keep my mind open to all possibilities, and choose the most rational one based off of the proof at hand, and logical deduction. While your list of documentaries, some of which I've seen, is comprehensive, it is not neccesarilly "proof".

To understand what I mean, consider that a documentary telling the story of sitings, or depictions of UFOs from ancient times, and other such, are evidence but not proof. I try to take as open-minded an approach as possible to the subject without being swayed too much by any single piece of evidence. I suppose you could say it's an eternal courtroom drama inside my head. I listen to arguements and evidence proposed by one side, then I listen to the other side to see if it is succesfully debunked. If it is debunked satisfactorily, I dismiss that evidence. If not, I catalogue it for future reference. I consider other alternatives for an explanation. It's not that I don't want to be convinced, I just have to consider all sides to the arguement.

But evidence can be argued against in some way. Proof is indisputable. Bits of strange metal from a reported siting are evidence. Eye-witness testimony is evidence.

Proof, on the other hand, would be something that can either be produced, or reproduced, and is inarguably so. For instance, alien DNA with 400 memory segments, or the wreckage of a craft, or some sort of techological gadget not possible with even our black-ops research, a living gray, in person. Something that can be shown, displayed, produced, or examined on demand. Not grainy questionable footage, but hard-core proof.

So while I cannot say for certain, one way or the other, I don't think asking about a claim of proof is out of line. I'll accept "evidence" and investigate it and counterpoints, but have yet to see "proof" of either side's arguement.

We all set our own criteria for how we can know the truth, don't set yourself up for deceit. Remember that it was debunked beyond despute that the earth was flat, how else could we stand and not fall? How could we rotate around the sun without falling off, it just doesn't make any sence, until you discover gravity ofcause.

Do you feel that the 100 witnesses on tape from Disclosure Project has been debunked? I know it's easy to write "they could be wrong" etc. but where are those arguements when only 1 witness sentence a black man to the chair? Where is this outcry then? It's irrational to dismiss 500 witnesses ready to testify before congress, it's ignorant to claim they were all on drugs etc. etc.

You do not appear to be either irrational or ignorant. The list of documentaries is a mindblowing ride, I would hate to think that you have even missed one of them.

I say everything with deep respect. Please buy the DVD's you have not yet seen (wait untill after christmas if you must, but buy them) kick back with a pizza and a beer, and then please share back with me. I would love to hear what you thought of the witnesses in the DP video for example.

Peace

Cade

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
There is proof of that in Roswell 1947, of a strange metal, as thin as tin foil, that does not dent, burn or cut, and returns to it's original shape post-stress. It was handeled by dozens of people, as well as the air force and a colonel.

This is the perfect example of what I was talking about Proof vs Evidence. Where is this metal? Do you have it? Can it be produced? Can you get the dozens of people to produce it? If the answer is no to these questions than you have EVIDENCE not PROOF. A second or third or forth hand story is not proof even if it is true.

I believe you (and the dozens of people) are right but my BELIEF is not PROOF.

Did any of you watch the SCI-FI channel report on Roswell last night? They are doing this the correct way taking modern science and trying to find PROOF, something that can be measured, handled, weighed, tested, etc. Not a story that a bar maids sister overheard. I am not saying that this is the only evidence by far. I have always said that this is the closest thing to a "Smoking Gun" that we have and I think if all the cards were laid on the table we would have proof, on this one at least. There is just TOO much evidence to be explained away, but again no proof.

Finding that piece of evidence that can not be denied should be ANY serious UFO/Paranormal researchers goal.

[edit on 22-12-2004 by Amuk]

IGnorance, it did take 30 years for any rumors or speculation of alien bodies found at Roswell to leak. The only ignorance revolving in this forum is you own.

i agree i am not being nasty but if ufos were real and have visited us y have they not made cocntact proper contact

This is not one of my threads but lets not start name calling OK?

To be honest I cant remember when the first Alien bodies started coming up but it seems to have been shortly after the crash, shorty since you seem sure can you tell us when they started popping up? I am sure a quick Google should answer this question

Originally posted by Frosty
IGnorance, it did take 30 years for any rumors or speculation of alien bodies found at Roswell to leak. The only ignorance revolving in this forum is you own.

It did i dont deny that. Well, there were a few cases but of little relevance.

Revolving oo long word isn't it.

My own ignorance? At least i don't follow the well they aint made contact yet so obviously dont exist.

Originally posted by Amuk
This is not one of my threads but lets not start name calling OK?

To be honest I cant remember when the first Alien bodies started coming up but it seems to have been shortly after the crash, shorty since you seem sure can you tell us when they started popping up? I am sure a quick Google should answer this question

Alien bodys have been about for who knows how long there are sevral cases in which alien bodys have been found one that pops up straight away in my mind is a UFO crash in Russia. Also, there are sevral ancient paintings and drawing of supposed aliens.

So i think i have cleared my name now right?

Originally posted by Cade
Do you feel that the 100 witnesses on tape from Disclosure Project has been debunked? I know it's easy to write "they could be wrong" etc. but where are those arguements when only 1 witness sentence a black man to the chair? Where is this outcry then? It's irrational to dismiss 500 witnesses ready to testify before congress, it's ignorant to claim they were all on drugs etc. etc.

...I would love to hear what you thought of the witnesses in the DP video for example.

Well, to be honest, I'd have to research the findings on those people. Some would certainly fall under the "discredited" category, for one reason or another, and certainly some would probably be quite credible. But even assuming a credible witness, someone who is a college professor on aerodynamics, who has never so much as touched a beer in his whole life, and is the foremost expert on debunking UFO phenomenon,... assuming someone like this, saw a flying saucer do impossible moves in the air, the fly away, and was utterly convinced of what he saw, and has ten colleagues of similar background to confirm his story.... even assuming this, I would not consider it proof. I would consider it expert testimony, and strong evidence, and definitely worth listening to, but I would not consider it proof.

And one person's testimony actually isn't enough to sentance someone to death nowadays. Perhaps in the 50's... but not now. You have to establish a weapon, a motive, a perp, a victim, and reasonably prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the murder happened.

I do, however intend on watching those DVDs because they do sound fascinating, and look forward to discussing them with you.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
There is proof of that in Roswell 1947, of a strange metal, as thin as tin foil, that does not dent, burn or cut, and returns to it's original shape post-stress. It was handeled by dozens of people, as well as the air force and a colonel.

This is the perfect example of what I was talking about Proof vs Evidence. Where is this metal? Do you have it? Can it be produced? Can you get the dozens of people to produce it? If the answer is no to these questions than you have EVIDENCE not PROOF. A second or third or forth hand story is not proof even if it is true.

I really couldn't have said it better myself. There is a LOT of evidence in support of UFOs/Alien visitations/abductions, etc. But there is no proof. I've heard about the metal, hence my using it as an example. But even the existance of this metal is not proof, it is merely evidence. If you were to show me this metal in person, it would be proof of the metal's existance, but not proof of alien visitations. It would, however, be evidence.

Originally posted by shorty
So i think i have cleared my name now right?

There was nothing to be cleared

It seems to me that the stories started earlier than that but it might just be bad memory I will try to find out. Even if it did take that long as I have said earlier when you are in the Army and are told to forget something you forget it. It would have been easy at that time to call on people Patriotism to keep most mouths shut. The reason it took that long could be as easily explained as wanting to get it off their chest before dying as anything else.

This IMO is one story that can not be explained off as lies.

Neither side has proof in this arguement, we dont have any bodies or debris and the other side is depending on a government story that has changed repeatedly over the last 60 years