Pennsylvania mother who gave daughter abortion pill gets prison

a reply to: NavyDoc

It's funny to be pro choice and be attacked by people that are.. I don't know, but beyond pro choice. Like they WANT these abortions. Damn an hour drive, to hell with safety and health of the mother, give us a quack with a coat hanger that does house calls.

I don't think they really see what this fight has turned them into.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Annee

Well we know why you think how you do, my question, why did you decide to murder your unborn child???

Jaden

YOUR belief.

Not mine.

You said it was a spontaneous abortion.. why didn't you just define that instead of saying your belief not mine. This is getting a little weird.. it sounds like you support abortion but have never had one, but are implying you have to.. i don't know better relate?

A spontaneous abortion is a miscarriage not an abortion as the poster replying to you presumed.

Oh, she's had one--it's almost like a right of passage in their house. Her, her daughter, free clinics, let the taxpayer save us from our decisions! Yay!

Of course, it's all about spending your money.

You got any personal experience with abortions you'd care to share?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

No it's not untrue I looked into it.

It is true. I looked into it better.

In reality, the guidelines for the ingredients in the abortion pill were released back in 2000, and doctors say they’re now extremely outdated. Women who want to end a pregnancy can safely and effectively take a much lower dosage than the FDA recommends, so that’s how doctors are administering the pill. And this dynamic is hardly specific to abortion. Drug companies don’t always go back to the FDA to complete the complicated and expensive process of re-lableing their products, even if the medical standards evolve, so it’s actually very common for doctors to follow an off-label protocol for prescribing medications.
That’s why the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) and the American Medical Association (AMA) both oppose these state laws. “

thinkprogress.org...

On ABC’s “This Week” Carol Tobias, the president of the National Right to Life, tried to make the argument that clinics are shuttering their doors because “they don’t want to meet even the minimum of safety and health regulations established for other surgical centers,” though it’s been established by health professionals that the new regulations, like the width requirements for doors and hallways, parking lot designs, and having admitting privileges to local hospitals, are excessive and unnecessary for a safe abortion. Dr. Barbara Levy of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists said, in the clip shown to the show’s guest, that the new laws are “Absolutely about restricting access… it is not about safety.”

When “This Week” host Martha Raddatz pointed to the American Medical Association and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists statements that these new regulations were not needed for patient safety,
bluenationreview.com...

TRAP Laws Gain Political Traction While Abortion Clinics—and the Women They Serve—Pay the Price

Well.. no you didn't because those arguments and links are irrelevant to the point I was making.

Actually the whole point you are making is irrelevant because we know the woman had a clinic available to her and her daughter.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Annee

Well we know why you think how you do, my question, why did you decide to murder your unborn child???

Jaden

YOUR belief.

Not mine.

You said it was a spontaneous abortion.. why didn't you just define that instead of saying your belief not mine. This is getting a little weird.. it sounds like you support abortion but have never had one, but are implying you have to.. i don't know better relate?

A spontaneous abortion is a miscarriage not an abortion as the poster replying to you presumed.

Oh, she's had one--it's almost like a right of passage in their house. Her, her daughter, free clinics, let the taxpayer save us from our decisions! Yay!

Of course, it's all about spending your money.

You got any personal experience with abortions you'd care to share?

I've done some.

a reply to: Annee

If presented with the options what would you choose. Say you have the same job and means of transportation (or hell, even if you don't and have to save and seek out a ride), your daughter gets pregnant, would you take the day off and drive (get a ride) an hour (to an 1.25 hours) away and pay for an abortion in a safe clinic after the doctor makes sure the pill is the right choice and safe choice for your daughter (and you can choose the dates for the checkups which is likely) and have the option to call if anything happens OR would you order an abortion pill off the internet and administer it to your daughter yourself not knowing if something in her medical history will cause complications, etc?

What would you choose? Both options are completely available to you as they were with this mother, an abortion is going to happen that is not questioned, just the path to it is the option.

But


But all of that is too hard. It has to be around the corner and free with no effort or conscious thought involved--at all.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Sorry Doc, you are no longer needed. Yep that's right our daughter is going to her friends house for an abortion. Seems her and 3 of her friends all got pregnant. Yeah they are having an abortion party.. sleep over. It's safe, one of her friends moms got 4 of the pills on the internet.

Precedent set.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: NavyDoc

Sorry Doc, you are no longer needed. Yep that's right our daughter is going to her friends house for an abortion. Seems her and 3 of her friends all got pregnant. Yeah they are having an abortion party.. sleep over. It's safe, one of her friends moms got 4 of the pills on the internet.

Precedent set.

That's cool, just don't call me at two A.M. when one of them starts bleeding out. I hear you can order plasma online too.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Yeah.. we got some Bayer brand plasma from UK too. I've heard there's never been a problem caused by tainted plasma in Europe.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: windword


Do you have a source that she had closer clinics that were shut down by "busy bodies?"

Out of Pennsylvania’s 22 abortion clinics, only one, Hillcrest Women’s Medical Center in Harrisburg, actually met all requirements and received a full license. Thirteen clinics, including all Planned Parenthood abortion facilities in the state, received provisional licenses will continue to supply surgical abortions on a temporary basis for the next 3-6 months. If the clinics do not meet all of the requirements by that time, they will no longer be allowed to do surgical abortions.

It's ridiculous that the abortion pill is classified as a surgical abortion, in its regulation. I've already provided source that the American Medical Association and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists oppose the regulations as medically unnecessary.

Also you think 2-4 hour and 15 minute trips are such an inconvenience that the mom should risk her daughters health?! Do you not understand how ludicrous your argument is?

It's not a couple of hours, figuring rush hour traffic, freeway traffic and side streets, it's about 3 hours drive time, plus waiting room and doctor time. It's more like 3 or 4 days off of work and school, plus the cost of the transportation and the doctor. Many good, hard working single mothers can't afford to do that. Research shows that the abortion pill is safe, and the AMA and the ACOG oppose the restrictions on it's access. But, even so, access wouldn't have been an issue if the clinics in their area weren't closed because of "busy bodies".

If someone I loved needed an abortion I would take the time and money it took to do it right to make sure they were healthy and safe. Some of you guys are insane and so caught up on the freedom that you dismiss the importance of safety. You sound like you would prefer a Gosnell on every corner rather than a couple trips an hour and 15 minutes away.

Gosnell did late term abortions, which are done to save the life of the mother or in the case of extreme fetal distress or abnormalities. Those babies, that survived their abortions, were destined to languish and die of thirst or starvation, it happens all the time, legally.

We need more late term abortion doctors, like Dr Keller, but right wing religious nuts keep killing them and threatening them, forcing their clinic to close.

a reply to: NavyDoc

On a serious note. Do you know any of the dangers from the pill abortion (i think it's usually given at 6 weeks or less). The girl I dated that had had one previously told me it was like the worst period imaginable (as a dude i have trouble imagining a light period so it wasn't much help) with severe cramping, etc. Hers went as it was supposed to though since she went to a clinic. I wonder how the pill goes badly.

a reply to: windword

Here is more of your absurd argument.

It is an hour to maybe an hour and 15 minutes drive one way. You know that is what we were talking about. Of course there is a drive back and waiting time and the visit time.

The reason your argument is absurd is because you think the abortion pill is an abortion on the go. Like because it's as simple as a pill they should be handed out in mass to keep on hand when needed. No they are dangerous. We are talking about safety. The doctor needs to know you didn't just take one last month, he needs to make sure there is nothing in it or you have no condition that makes it dangerous.

If you have met someone that has taken one, you know it's not something you pop before a jog or going to work. You expect to be laid up for a while.

Okay it shouldn't be classified as a surgical procedure.. that means what to me? It sure doesn't mean it should be legal to purchase over the counter.

An abortion is a serious thing and the person receiving it should be provided with proper care despite what you think. The mother endangered her daughter. If it was someone I loved.. I would make sure it was done and done right.

You are arguing with me for the sake of arguing because I support abortion and it's looking like you are arguing against women's health and safety.

I can't BELIEVE you are defending Gosnell. He did illegal late term abortions for anyone that walked through the door. He did live birth abortions in a flea infested hell hole with leaking ceilings and animals everywhere. He did live abortions too which is messed up. He didn't sterilize his equipment, left blood on the tables and chairs, AND WOMEN DIED THERE.

After that post I now know that you are a radical left winger. Someone firmly grounded in the middle, and in reality has not reason to continue talking to anyone espousing the ludicrous beliefs you hold.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

It should be available over counter.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

The reason your argument is absurd is because you think the abortion pill is an abortion on the go.

It IS abortion on the go. They hand it to you and send you home!

Like because it's as simple as a pill they should be handed out in mass to keep on hand when needed.

They are handed out enmasse!

No they are dangerous.

No more dangerous than many other perfectly acceptable risks.

We are talking about safety.

No we're not. That's where you and I are not communicating. These draconian laws are NOT about safety, not according to the people pushing them, who admit they are using them to stop access to abortion, as I have sourced. The AMA and ACOG also agree that the laws are medically unnecessary. Judges have ruled, state after state that these laws are unconstitutional.

The doctor needs to know you didn't just take one last month, he needs to make sure there is nothing in it or you have no condition that makes it dangerous.

But there's no reason why your own doctor can't make that decision, other than the fact that there's busy bodies who want to come between a woman and her own doctor.

I can't BELIEVE you are defending Gosnell.

I can't believe you pulled the Gosnell card when we're talking about an early, easy 8 week procedure! But, educate yourself! Late term abortions are necessary and we need more good late term abortion doctors. But whackos, who don't understand the medical need, keep killing and terrorizing them, which is why we get substandard doctors. It's not because the pro-lifers care about the women, I promise you!

Learn about late term abortions, and tell me that allowing languishing deformed babies to starve to death, is more human than euthanasia.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: windword


Do you have a source that she had closer clinics that were shut down by "busy bodies?"

Out of Pennsylvania’s 22 abortion clinics, only one, Hillcrest Women’s Medical Center in Harrisburg, actually met all requirements and received a full license. Thirteen clinics, including all Planned Parenthood abortion facilities in the state, received provisional licenses will continue to supply surgical abortions on a temporary basis for the next 3-6 months. If the clinics do not meet all of the requirements by that time, they will no longer be allowed to do surgical abortions.

It's ridiculous that the abortion pill is classified as a surgical abortion, in its regulation. I've already provided source that the American Medical Association and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists oppose the regulations as medically unnecessary.

Also you think 2-4 hour and 15 minute trips are such an inconvenience that the mom should risk her daughters health?! Do you not understand how ludicrous your argument is?

It's not a couple of hours, figuring rush hour traffic, freeway traffic and side streets, it's about 3 hours drive time, plus waiting room and doctor time. It's more like 3 or 4 days off of work and school, plus the cost of the transportation and the doctor. Many good, hard working single mothers can't afford to do that. Research shows that the abortion pill is safe, and the AMA and the ACOG oppose the restrictions on it's access. But, even so, access wouldn't have been an issue if the clinics in their area weren't closed because of "busy bodies".

If someone I loved needed an abortion I would take the time and money it took to do it right to make sure they were healthy and safe. Some of you guys are insane and so caught up on the freedom that you dismiss the importance of safety. You sound like you would prefer a Gosnell on every corner rather than a couple trips an hour and 15 minutes away.

Gosnell did late term abortions, which are done to save the life of the mother or in the case of extreme fetal distress or abnormalities. Those babies, that survived their abortions, were destined to languish and die of thirst or starvation, it happens all the time, legally.

We need more late term abortion doctors, like Dr Keller, but right wing religious nuts keep killing them and threatening them, forcing their clinic to close.

No you didn't. You posted two opinion pieces from two activist blogs, one of which was using an opinion piece from ABC news as a reference. Get a consensus statement from the societies themselves and then we might have something to discuss. (You might want to look up what a consensus statement is first.)

The very article you posted states that the 13 clinics in question were still operating under provisional licenses so the narrative of "clinics closed down by meanies" is not true by the very own source you posted above.

It still boggles the mind that you think what this mother did was not dangerous and irresponsible.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

It should be available over counter.

Not only is that insane and irresponsible, that is not what the rest of the western world does so you can't claim it's a Tepublican conspiracy.

a reply to: NavyDoc

No you didn't. You posted two opinion pieces from two activist blogs, one of which was using an opinion piece from ABC news as a reference. Get a consensus statement from the societies themselves and then we might have something to discuss. (You might want to look up what a consensus statement is first.)

No. I presented quotes from representative of the American Medical Association and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist that confirmed their opposition to various pieces of legislation.

The very article you posted states that the 13 clinics in question were still operating under provisional licenses so the narrative of "clinics closed down by meanies" is not true by the very own source you posted above.

The poster asked me to provide proof that clinics were closed. I did. The OP article stated that Harrisburg was the closest clinic available, as my source confirmed. The closest clinic was too far because closer clinics were closed, because of medically unnecessary draconian laws, written for right wing religious nuts that want to block access to abortion, and DON'T care about women' health one iota!

This issue is about the constant push to block access to safe and affordable abortion.

a reply to: Annee

No.. it shouldn't.

We are talking about a pill taken up to 9 weeks that requires a visit to a physician and can require follow up appointments. It's NOT the same as the day after pill which generally prevents you from getting pregnant.

This is a pill that aborts a confirmed pregnancy. It can have serious side effects and is different than the day after pill. If you made this over the counter you might have a very large amount of women dying in secret because they had complications or took too many or are taking them regularly. You know it's dangerous to have multiple abortions close together but you want to give a drug that causes abortion to the generally ignorant masses.

You are way off and people like you hurt the cause and women's rights. I am all for women's right to choose, but it should be in a safe supervised environment.

a reply to: windword

"No more dangerous than any other perfectly acceptable risks"

What?? Are you hearing yourself.

It is not an abortion on the go. Yeah they give it to you and send you home, but I bet they don't say "oh you're cool, go camping or hiking or swimming."

I bet the tell you to call off and take a few days in bed.

No you are talking about republicans or religious people blah blah blah. I am talking about a woman who bought a pill illegally. If your private physician wants to give you a pill.. fine. If they want to do it and since that is an option now I don't care honestly. An actualy procedure other than the pill probably requires someone besides your private doctor. Forced to drive an hour away.. I wouldn't call that draconian necessarily.

Trust me, you having a hard time believing I brought up Gosnell is a long shot (as far as unbelievable things go) compared to you defending such a vile human being. You defended Gosnell, you are no different than the extreme religious right that try to take away women's right to choose you are just on the same extreme but opposite end of the spectrum.

Think about that a little bit. You are every bit as extreme and (in the eyes of many of us in the middle) as bad for women's rights and people's safety as those far right religious people you are bashing.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

No you didn't. You posted two opinion pieces from two activist blogs, one of which was using an opinion piece from ABC news as a reference. Get a consensus statement from the societies themselves and then we might have something to discuss. (You might want to look up what a consensus statement is first.)

No. I presented quotes from representative of the American Medical Association and American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist that confirmed their opposition to various pieces of legislation.

The very article you posted states that the 13 clinics in question were still operating under provisional licenses so the narrative of "clinics closed down by meanies" is not true by the very own source you posted above.

The poster asked me to provide proof that clinics were closed. I did. The OP article stated that Harrisburg was the closest clinic available, as my source confirmed. The closest clinic was too far because closer clinics were closed, because of medically unnecessary draconian laws, written for right wing religious nuts that want to block access to abortion, and DON'T care about women' health one iota!

This issue is about the constant push to block access to safe and affordable abortion.

No you didn't. You did not present consensus statements from either of those organizations. You presented opinion pieces from two activist blogs who made unsubstantiated claims as to what the stance of those organizations was.

But what you posted was NOT proof that they were closed. The article stated that they were operating under provisional permits. Did you even read it before you posted it?