Pennsylvania mother who gave daughter abortion pill gets prison

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: intrepid
Safe? Unregulated, unknown substances are safe?

RU-486 is known and tested. You don't even need a prescription.

From RU-486 wiki:

"It is a prescription drug, but it is not available to the public through pharmacies; its distribution is restricted to specially qualified licensed physicians, sold by Danco Laboratories under the tradename Mifeprex."

It is available only by prescription in the USA.

God Bless,

a reply to: LDragonFire

Don't hold your breath. The left (liberals in this case, and I'm making the distinction here because I'm a Socialist who doesn't appreciate being associated with baby killers and drag queens) are about to learn the meaning of the old saying "Give them enough rope, and eventually they'll hang themselves".

You're right, Republicans are more motivated now to get out and vote than they've ever been, and don't forget that a big chunk of them are women. Not all women feel they should have the right to kill their babies.

originally posted by: Annee
I've had an abortion too. I would do it again under the same circumstances.

That child is probably looking down from Heaven waiting for his or her mother.

As far as Jesus goes, He DOES care...

In heaven, children are there, all the ones who died young, in childbirth, or were aborted.
Link

"This dome," said my guide, "is the place where all infants from earth are gathered for instruction. The outer buildings are the nurseries where they are first brought, to be nourished by their guardian angel." "Whenever an infant dies on earth, the guardian angel who brings it here considers all of its abilities and places it with others of similar ability. According to its artistic, scientific or social abilities, each is given a home best suited to the development of its gifts." INFANTS' PARADISE

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: LDragonFire

Don't hold your breath. The left (liberals in this case) are about to learn the meaning of the old saying "Give them enough rope, and eventually they'll hang themselves".

You're right, Republicans are more motivated now to get out and vote than they've ever been, and don't forget that a big chunk of them are women. Not all women feel they should have the right to kill their babies.

A bit off topic, but the elections will be interesting. The left is hanging their hats on one thing really--female reproductive issues. There are a lot of women out there who are more than their reproductive organs and will be voting on a lot of other issues--the economy, taxation, foreign affairs, the environment, business and job opportunities, gun rights, etc. It will be an interesting election indeed.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

It requires close supervision due to potentially life threatening adverse effects.

Nonsense! They give it to people to take at home all the time. Complication with medical abortions are extreemly rare.

Yep!

My daughter took an "abortion" pill she got from the Free Clinic (within walking distance).

Some mild cramping. That's it.

n

I wonder what the poor fetus felt?

Bunch of parasite cells?

I've had an abortion too. I would do it again under the same circumstances.

You can keep your self righteousness.

Annee--this is in support of you. Any "you's" involved are not to you but to those attacking you.

I have had 3 involuntary abortions. Each time I was told that I had to go to an abortion clinic due to religious and political controversy.

The first was because the baby was ectopic (deep in my fallopian tube). It was so deep in that the first D&C did not remove it and I had to go back in two days after uncontrolled bleeding for a second.

The second was because the baby had died at 6.5 weeks (blighted ovum). After two months of waiting, hoping and praying that it would somehow magically grow and that little star of a heartbeat would return as I still hadn't miscarried, it was declared dead. I will never forget my husband and I being accosted by pro-life protesters screaming at me that day, calling me a murderer and begging me not to murder my child. I will never forget the look on one woman protester's face after she grabbed my arm and stopped me, begging these things. I removed my sunglasses to look her dead in the eyes with my own swollen and heartbroken eyes and asked her "how could I murder something that was already dead?" She was blown away. She had no idea that women whose babies had died and, like me, had failed to miscarry would get sent to an abortion clinic because of people like her.

The third was because, despite precaution, despite it being one time, despite fertility issues, and despite nursing, I got pregnant when my youngest was just under 6 mos old. No big deal right? Wrong. Both of my children who lived required being born by c-section due to reproductive abnormalities and other medical complications (stroke). Both were extreme high risk pregnancies. My youngest was delivered via c-section one month premature. I had involuntary abortion orders up til 6 mos in my medical records in the case of any neurological event. During that c-section, the ob/gyn also noted that both my uterus and abdominal walls had thinned terribly. I was supposed to have been sterilized during that procedure but the approval came after the surgery had begun. As I wasn't sterilized as planned, my ob/gyn advised me to never attempt to carry a child again as the odds of my suffering from multiple ruptures was so high. In short, I would very likely die because of all my pre-existing health issues and that.

We had to drive 300 miles round trip for that involuntary abortion. It was the seventh ring of hell. The prior two involuntary abortions were not nearly as hard as that third. The first was killing us both and the second was already dead. Both were terrible but that third, though, being left with nothing to distract for 150 miles one way and being left to a grief struck, shocked mind on the way back...that was hell on earth. The only things that kept me from losing my mind was the thought of my two living children who needed me and knowing, deep down to my core, that I had no choice. That neither myself or that baby had a freaking chance in the world if I chose otherwise.

Three involuntary abortions which were ALL listed on my medical records as being involuntary and for every last one of them, I was sent to an abortion clinic where I had to deal with people who had no business in my affairs and judged me without knowing my circumstances or the hell I was going through at the time. I wouldn't have aborted a single one of those babies if I had had a choice. The ONLY time that I said a word was because I was so incensed and broken at the sheer and total irrationality being launched at me. Murderer? My baby was dead. Where was your god to bring that baby back to life?

Because of self righteous busybodies, I couldn't get these done in the privacy of my own ob/gyns' offices and by god, they wanted to help me. They didn't want to send me to an abortion clinic. They couldn't though because of those self righteous busybodies. My grief for my lost children is equal to the amount of rage I hold for the conditions that made each of these events happen and why I had to be subjected to all of this.

Any of you have a problem with my having had 3 involuntary abortions, BRING IT. When you all attack someone for having gone to an abortion clinic, you better be for damn sure certain that there was actually a choice involved. While I would've never personally had a single abortion in my life because I value life and love children so much, you all made me pro-choice.

Stick that in your hats.

First off, I don't have kids. Second off, I think the woman should be punished but not with jail time. I'm not saying she shouldn't be punished. I'm just saying that jail isn't a good way to handle this. While very risky, her actions were something that all parents should take note of. You can have the talk with your child, and you can send them to sex- ed classes but if they want to have sex, they will still have sex. Sex is means of continuing population, but what some people don't get is that it's now much more than that. I mean, even the people who wait until their wedding night to have sex... Do you really think they want to have a baby that soon?

There are a lot of things we don't know about this situation. Did the girl use some sort of birth control, and it failed? YES IT CAN HAPPEN, GUYS. If that is what happened, I applaud the girl in going to her mother, instead of hiding it like so many girls do. Really, in general, I applaud this girl in going to her mother, regardless of the circumstances.

We also don't know if maybe this girl had health issues that would make bearing children life threatening. Just because you CAN have a child, doesn't mean you SHOULD. I think most likely that the girl just did not want a child, and you know what? That is okay. We are overpopulated as is, and if a sixteen year old doesn't want to have a child, she shouldn't be forced to. I watched this video on upworthy and this female was talking about how painful the adoption process had been for her. An experience as such could be very harmful to someone so young. Likewise, an abortion might be, too. The bottom line though, is that while this was risky, it's not up to us, a judge, a jury or anyone else what this child and her mother decided. And this mother should not spend time in jail because she was trying to help her daughter.

I mean, this situation isn't the same as the man in Florida that tricked his spouse into taking the pill. This is a young girl who went to her mother, said she was pregnant and didn't want a child. And the mother took care of it.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Annee
I've had an abortion too. I would do it again under the same circumstances.

That child is probably looking down from Heaven waiting for his or her mother.

As far as Jesus goes, He DOES care...

YOUR belief.

Not interested.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

LOVES To you.

There are so many times I am forever thankful my parents left Ohio, and moved to Southern California before I was born.

There's still some ridiculousness in SOCA (prop 8) ----- but nothing compared to the Midwest and South.

I always say: "Thanks for being raised in SOCA, I don't have to unlearn bigotry".

a reply to: JiggyPotamus
I mean a deformity like being born without a brain, or in a vegetative state, or a really bad deformity that will cause them suffering. You know what I mean? I don't mean mentally retarded or physically handicapped or anything like that. I mean in extreme cases where the baby will have zero quality of life.

a reply to: NavyDoc

They can take the drugs at home if, after a good history and physical it is determined safe and they have follow up care to make sure there is no complications.

And this is why Pennsylvania law is so draconian, and causing otherwise conscientious mothers to become criminals.

You have no idea if the girl was or was not seeing her family doctor, who diagnosed her pregnancy, and would have been unable to prescribe the abortion, under Pennsylvania law. It's like you're just assuming the girl peed on a stick and her mom ordered random abortion pills from some internet veterinarian in China!

Giving your kid a drug that you bought over the internet with zero knowledge and training and then taking her to the ER when things get "ugly" is nowhere near the definition of "uber responsible." That's the very definition of "moronic."

Things never got ugly. The mother did more than make sure that her daughters needs were taken care of. Even if she had gone to the clinic 75 miles away, IF things DID get ugly, she still would have wound up in the same ER. I fail to see your (overblown) issue here.

This case is an example why it's more important for there to be easy and affordable access to Planned Parenthood and women's clinics, instead of this push to make access as convoluted, complicated and expensive as possible and to shut them down altogether.

The more the religious right pushes to close clinics, the more we'll see acts of desperation, putting young women's lives at risk.

a reply to: windword

People need to stock up and get ready.

If Republicans get control due to Democrat failures, it's gonna be a long ride home.

a reply to: Annee

Love to you, too. I know you're a tough lady but I could not sit by any longer. These people need to really understand the effects of their actions. They don't just injure those who had a choice but those who had no choice. My experiences with my three lost babies was entirely and dramatically framed by those who made a woman's personal issue their own.

My first baby which was ectopic also had been impacted by methotrexate. My gynecologist informed me that that baby had a 66% chance likelihood of being born with severe deformities including missing limbs. Even then, she could not, because of hospital policies, suggest abortion. When it became self evident that the baby was also ectopic, she, at the cited risk of losing her job, told me that she could not be both my doctor and follow hospital policies. She advised abortion. When I still didn't go in, was vomiting 24/7, experiencing terrible slashing pains and my face was turning grey, she flat out told me to abort or die--again against hospital policies.

My second baby--first ultrasound had a heartbeat at 6.5 weeks. Different hospital. My mother, husband and I were all there. When the tech got quiet and hushed us to count the heartbeat, it was terrible. My mother and husband counted. 60 bpm. Silence. Ordered back in the next day for another ultrasound. No heartbeat. Next day, another ultrasound, no heartbeat. Day after day--same thing. Ultrasound. No growth, no heartbeat, day in and day out. Silent ob/gyn. At 12.5 weeks, after 6 weeks of daily ultrasounds and silence, my ob/gyn got up from his desk and I swiped the latest notes on my most recent ultrasound. No fetal pole--blighted ovum. When he came back in to his office, he wasn't happy about my snatching that paper and we went round and round. He finally said that my baby was nonviable after what may have been 30 minutes of evasion. Hospital policies. I had to ask him what nonviable meant. Again, he wouldn't define it (it means dead or incapable of living)--hospital policies. He did say that I would eventually miscarry and, as an aside, said that if I couldn't bear it, I could have it removed but not there. Hospital policies again. My alternative was to wait for weeks, months or even a year, considering my specific issues, for the baby to miscarry naturally. I went through 6 weeks of daily ultrasounds, watching a baby that never grew and was never going to grow because of hospital policies against saying "it's probably dead" or "it's dead" because of abortion issues. Instead, I got silence. Nothing. No information. I had to steal my own medical test results.

The ramifications of the whole abortion controversy isn't just felt by women who want an abortion but for any woman whose baby happens to not be thriving, who has died, and more. Those hospital policies get framed around that controversy so that doctors have to break rules to do their jobs. It frames every procedure and even the language that gets used when a pregnancy isn't going as it should. These pro-life people didn't just accost me at the door of the clinic. They made it so that my ob/gyn wouldn't tell me straight up that my baby was dead for 6 weeks every day. That should explain why that one time, I released my personal hell on that pro-life protester. She was so very sorry. She was bawling for me and all I felt was rage.

I will NEVER forgive these people who made my world like that because they presumed to know everything and what is right for everyone. Hell, it's one of the number one reasons why I became an atheist to boot.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
I will NEVER forgive these people who made my world like that because they presumed to know everything and what is right for everyone. Hell, it's one of the number one reasons why I became an atheist to boot.

I don't blame you. I have no use for the self-righteous.

Love it (not) when they tell me how I think and feel or "If I had children I'd know".

No one (unless they have some kind of mental/emotional issue) wakes up and says: "I think I'll have an abortion today".

My first pregnancy was a 4th month spontaneous abortion. I was 21 years old and married to my high school sweetheart.

It did not come out clean, so they had to do a D&C. The hospital was doing major repairs. The only place they could put me was in the maternity ward. That was tough.

NO ONE has the right to legislate my reproductive choices.

a reply to: Annee

Legislate or dictate because those hospital policies that affected me were not federal or even state law. They were simply hospital policies. One hospital was Catholic. The other cited death threats and endangering patients. The thing that really bothered me as well was that my second lost child came just months after a bombing of an abortion clinic in another part of the country. Essentially, because some took their views to the extreme of murdering those who they deemed as murderers, if that had been where I was on that day, they would've murdered someone who would have given everything to have a living baby in her tummy and not be there at all.

And I agree. Even when the facts of the situation are clear and even if you're told "you're going to die", it still does not come easy. It just doesn't. It feels like you're giving up and it hangs on you. All that talk about it being taken too lightly, really, they should actually see the women who go in there and afterwards. I remember so much heartbroken crying. None of those women, regardless of why they were there, took it lightly from what I saw and heard. If it wasn't easy for me when it was clear cut, it sure as hell wasn't easy for those who had a choice either.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
I remember so much heartbroken crying. None of those women, regardless of why they were there, took it lightly from what I saw and heard. If it wasn't easy for me when it was clear cut, it sure as hell wasn't easy for those who had a choice either.

I totally cried when I decided on an elective abortion. It was not an easy choice.

However, I would do it again under the same circumstance.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: AnteBellum

The Pennsylvania case follows the prosecution of a Florida man who pleaded guilty to tricking his girlfriend into taking an abortion pill. He was sentenced in January to 13 years in prison and $28,500 restitution. In June, Florida toughened state law to allow for prosecutions in the death of non-viable fetuses.

So do we all agree that the sentence handed down to this guy in Florida was fair? I haven't heard anyone oppose it yet.

Tell me, why does whether or not the woman wants the child effect the fetus's value? If that's the case, then shouldn't whether or not the father wants the child effect it's value as well?

Double standard much?

Tell you what..

Since you are so against women having the right to "not be pregnant" and seem to want women to be forced to have unwanted children..

Why don't you volunteer to raise all those unwanted children..

(reply in advance) Didn't think so...

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
I remember so much heartbroken crying. None of those women, regardless of why they were there, took it lightly from what I saw and heard. If it wasn't easy for me when it was clear cut, it sure as hell wasn't easy for those who had a choice either.

I totally cried when I decided on an elective abortion. It was not an easy choice.

However, I would do it again under the same circumstance.

Mhmmm. I remember when I broke down and told my mother about what happened with my first pregnancy (ectopic one), she ripped me a new one for even considering that I could've had a child at that particular time. The methotrexate in my blood stream was from when I overdosed on my chemo drug just a few months prior. Her exact words were that if I couldn't figure out how to live for myself, I had no business bringing a child into this world until that day. And she was right.

a reply to: Annee

Yes, seriously I would think so.

74 miles away isn't anything! Wait days for a pill to arrive or drive an hour away.. hmm.

The only reason I can see this woman (who has a decent job and could afford the abortion/trip) not driving her daughter to the clinic an hour away would be that she wanted it to be a secret.

I know you are extreme on this topic, but give me another reason. We are just going to have to disagree. I support a woman's right to choose, but that isn't extended into illegal back alley abortions and buying illegal drugs just because she won't drive an hour away.

a reply to: windword

I don't doubt that religious right causes some problems, buy the right to choose will never be eliminated. Half of the clinics are closed due to safety and health issues, not politics.

Again, as i always have to explain, i support women's right to choose. I just don't think that is the issue here. The woman who had the abortion isn't on trial, the mother is, and that is for a reason. She essentially gave her daughter a new age back alley abortion when there were other legal options available to them. She had a clinic an hour away and the means to afford it and travel there. She endangered her daughter doing it the way she did. That said I still think the punishment was excessive.