Hernando's Hideaway. Another Thread "almost certainly not for you."

originally posted by: guohua
How a Male will place a woman on a Pedestal, could that have a religious thing.
"all those Knights in Shining Armor who were always pledging allegiance to some fair maiden and fighting to the death anyone who insulted her. "

Wearing my "student of history" hat, which is older than my "religious person" hat, I can see that the question is more complex.
Taking knights in shining armour; the original version of this was in the Arthurian cycle of legends as developed by the poets of mediaeval France. This was mixed with the conventions of "courtly romance". This was certainly about putting women on a pedestal. But the conventions were not entirely Christian. E.g. they attached equal value to adulterous affairs like Tristan and Isolde.
Then there was the contribution of Victorian sentiment. In fact the knights of King Arthur in the poems of the Victorian Tennyson are actually much more gallant and protective towards the ladies than they are in the mediaeval Malory.
I'm reading Malory at the moment, and I recently bookmarked a classic piece of British understatement;
"And therewithal Sir Tristram strode unto him and took his lady from him, and with an awk stroke he smote off her head c lene.
Well knight, said Sir Breunor, now hast thou done me a despite."

So we have to take into consideration the currents of cultural convention as well.

a reply to: ketsuko

Ketsuko! Hello! I'm glad you stopped by. Want anything to drink? A snack maybe? Just ask G, she's a genius. I'll cover the tab as it's your first time here.

You're not late to the party. In some form Hernando's has been in existence back through the Greek philosophers. Any place or time when people have valued Truth, Love, and Beauty, you can find a Hernando's. This is, as far as I know, the only Hernando's on ATS.

When it comes to clothes, I'm in and out as quickly as possible. My husband loves it . . .

Well, I'm not surprised that he does, especially the "out" part of your clothes. I should tell you that even though Hernando's is an adult place, we try to keep it clean. (As I fall off my stool laughing. Sometimes, I crack myself up.)

As you enjoy football, I assume that you're both fans of the Green Bay Packers. (Dodges thrown glass) You're not? They're the team that symbolizes all that is great in America. (Dodges thrown beer pitcher.) OK, OK, I give. Who do you like?

I like your thinking on marriage.

I will say that the thing about happy wife; happy life is generally true only inasmuch as why would you marry someone you didn't intend to try to keep happy?

I think a problem comes up when a man doesn't realize what a marriage involves or requires to keep functioning. Are men willing to leave their jobs for their wife's sake and move? Take on a second job? Spend more time at home? Watch a stupid chick flick with her every now and then?

I'm not sure that men agree with me when I say that your wife is man's number one focus. Above everyone else, above everything else. Some of that comes from my religious background, but it makes sense to me.

But, if what it takes to make her happy isn't also going to make you happy, then it generally isn't going to be worth marrying IMO.

You're right, kind ketsuko, but I don't think that happens very often (at least I hope it doesn't). Expat888 can tell you about a woman who just wanted more and more, but she wasn't in love with him, it sounded like she was in love with his things.

Love's important here. I'd like to think that men should sacrifice a lot of energy and time, because knowing that their wife is being "uplifted" by his love should be satisfaction for him.

I'm really glad for you that you had so many good examples around you. How many families today are single parent?

G, I need a beer. When I think of where we are, as opposed to where we ought to be, it gets a little depressing. Oh well. G, could you turn the station to the Green Bay highlights film? (Falls under a flood of mugs and pitchers thrown by everybody in the place.)

a reply to: charles1952

Well, we are homers, so we follow the Chiefs, but we are also Packers fans as one of our fav alums plays wide receiver for them. Mr. Nelson had an outstanding senior year right in front of us, and it was a pleasure to watch him work. If the Chiefs can't win, then we are for the Packers all the way!

And as for a drink, anything margarita or a Long Island iced tea will do.

"And therewithal Sir Tristram strode unto him and took his lady from him, and with an awk stroke he smote off her head c lene.
Well knight, said Sir Breunor, now hast thou done me a despite."

a reply to: DISRAELI

WoW,,,, My American English is Not The Best, Now I have this Old World English and it sounds like this Sir Tristram just took off the head of a Lady and this other Sir Breunor is, Like, OK Dude, now you've gone and done it!

a reply to: charles1952
I'll crack the Whip and get the Waiter moving with those Drinks Charles & ketsuko.
While we wait, how about some Turtle Meat Soup with potato's, celery, thin slice carrots and water chestnuts.
The bread is a Brown wheat bread your choice of butter or honey spread.
( by the why that's is what we're having tonight )

a reply to: Bassago

Bassago! You old Dick fan, you. (I like him too, but I have to ration him.)

You don't have to worry about the menu. G, the bartender makes excellent corn dogs, and her Asian food is unique. You have to try the Chinese Hornets Honey, if she has any left. And as far as liquid potables, I haven't been disappointed yet.

I think you nailed it with that Golden Rule observation. Somewhere I heard that was one of Jesus' moral advances. Before that it had been "Don't do unto anyone what you don't want them to do to you." His is more challenging, I think, because He gives us the job of going out and doing things, instead of sitting around and avoiding doing bad things.

But, OK. You've got this whole communication thing down, why do you think ATS gets as crazy as it does? We've both been on threads where we want to scream at somebody, or they're screaming at us. Do we know the problem? Do we have a cure?

That's why I like stopping by Hernado's. It's a good place with good people and there hasn't been a scream yet. (I'm not counting the reaction to my Green Bay comments.)

Enjoy yourself, say Hi to the others, talk when you want on any subject you want. Good to have you.

a reply to: guohua
That's about it.
You will guess that a fight followed.
Sir Breunor had only himself to blame, because he was the one who started the custom of cutting off the heads of passing ladies, so this was just retaliation.
About the "awk stroke"; I've just checked in my dictionary, and apparently "awk" is an obsolete word meaning "back-handed".

a reply to: charles1952
Thank you for that quotation.
I am pondering it, but at the moment I don't have anything else to add to it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm glad you jumped in. We need a scholar here, and you can take over that job unless somebody wants to challenge you for it.

I didn't know British understatement went that far back. You're right, that is a classic.

"And therewithal Sir Tristram strode unto him and took his lady from him, and with an awk stroke he smote off her head clene.
Well knight, said Sir Breunor, now hast thou done me a despite."

How would Sir Breunor have described the event if Sir Breunor's head had been "smote off clene?" (Assuming he didn't lose his head over the affair.)

Hey, Disraeli. Let me buy you a beer, because I've got a question for you. Do you think women were taken off their pedestals during the times of poverty when everyone was forced to work to live, then taken off again when industry and technology put them into factories?

Is the care, respect and protection for women a mark of society's goodness and health? (Don't tell guohua I said that, she's a little bit on the "woman is equal" side of things.)

It's a good thing you're here. Stick around and teach us some stuff. We'll try to do the same for you.

a reply to: ketsuko

That's all right, ketsuko, I can understand and appreciate homers. Your football hearts are in the right place and that's what matters.

You gotta watch out for those Long Islands. At a bar-restaurant I had three of them within an hour and a half, but my body chemistry is funny depending on some psychological things. They seemed to have no effect, but I wouldn't recommend it for the average human.

One of things that I find fascinating about the Packers was their decision to sell shares in the team to members of the community. Probably didn't make much difference in the management structure, but it was a nice touch. And when you couple that with the Lambeau Leap where the players offered themselves to the fans after a score, you've got a team with a warm spot in my heart.

a reply to: guohua

Oooo, I've never had turtle before, but it's on my list of things to try. Will it go well with the homemade springrolls we are making for supper? I'll share if it does. They're nothing too fancy, just chicken with cabbage, carrot, shiitake, bean sprout and marinated and stir fried in ginger, lemon grass and garlic and fish sauce and soy before being wrapped and fried.

But we'd share.

originally posted by: charles1952
I didn't know British understatement went that far back. You're right, that is a classic.

I can think of a couple of older examples.
When I had to study a book of Bede,I came across one catalogue of disasters (how do I stop this browser from spellchecking in American?) summed up by the remark INFAUSTUS ILLE ANNUS- "a rather unfortunate year, that one".
There's also a famous one at the beginning of Beowulf, when the praise of the king who is just being buried ends in the anti-climax of "That was a good king".

Do you think women were taken off their pedestals during the times of poverty when everyone was forced to work to live, then taken off again when industry and technology put them into factories?

I'm going to suggest that putting women on pedestals was originally an aristocratic thing. Certainly the old French "courtly romance" tradition is supposed to go back to the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was technically an independent ruler(when she was divorced by the king of France and married the king of England, the rule of about a quarter of the territory of France went with her).
I think the ladies of Tennyson's "Idylls of the king" are modelled on the ladies of his own time, those of the more well-to-do classes. They would have had a certain power in the courtship game, because they could make their own choices, and they would have had money as well as beauty to make them appealing. Perhaps putting them on a pedestal reflected this power they had, as a class, over their potential suitors as a class.
But then there is the sentimentalising of women in the novels of Dickens. Maybe it began in the upper classes and then filtered down through the social scale.

a reply to: ketsuko

OH, You enjoy the game of Football and other Sports.
That is Great, you know, I never could understand American Football, But Base ball and Basket ball I like to watch.
No, I don't fallow or a Fan just watch some times, I would much rather go out and shot at targets with my husband or go fishing and set crawdad traps.

I'm not one to change clothes quickly though even out of my gardening clothes I choice my clothes to match and sometimes my husband as actually gone to sleep waiting for me to change for a dinner.
I was raised in China, so, the girls and boys were kept separated mostly in schools.
Our weapons, unarmed and martial arts instructors were Female in school and we competed against the boys who instructors were of-course Men.

I did not have my first boy friend until I was 22 years old, my first kiss at 22, I already had my first Master's degree.
Different culture,,, Because I liked to watch the boys, we all did and we noticed the boys watch us girls and pointed at us and would run away.
We did not attend class with boys until the sixth grade and we were still separated by boys on one side and girls on the other.
OH,,,Sorry, I'm drinking and Rambling and my husband is Massaging my neck and shoulders,,,, he asked if I wanted another drink,,,,,,NO,,,I want a Kiss you Big Knuckle Draggier!!!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: guohua

Oooo, I've never had turtle before, but it's on my list of things to try. Will it go well with the homemade springrolls we are making for supper? I'll share if it does. They're nothing too fancy, just chicken with cabbage, carrot, shiitake, bean sprout and marinated and stir fried in ginger, lemon grass and garlic and fish sauce and soy before being wrapped and fried.

But we'd share.

OH, YES, That sounds Soooooooo, Delicious,,,, Yes, Turtle Soup would go Perfect with your meal.
Just Excellent, OHm Soooo Good!
Yes, the Cabbage and Carrot, people just don't understand, how those two make each other taste just that much better, you agree?
Shiitake and Bean Sprout are the Best,,,, you know, EXPAT888 is missing a Great Meal, I bet his mouth will be Watering when he reads what you've made.
Yes, We'll share!!!
Put out the big table for all our friends, bring the drinks and we'll have a Great time!

a reply to: charles1952

Thanks for the welcome Charles.

I really believe if more people lived the golden rule much of the distress we suffer would be alleviated and many problems would disappear. Doubtful that will ever happen though so the best we can do is look for like minded people in that regard.

why do you think ATS gets as crazy as it does? We've both been on threads where we want to scream at somebody, or they're screaming at us. Do we know the problem? Do we have a cure?

On that I really don't know. My old biblical teachings would simply put it down to the fallen nature of mankind. The humanistic portion would see it simply as competition by some of the members or their need to be right or validated in their position or beliefs. Looking at it psychologically would give it a different perspective, probably darker.

A cure, no I don't think so. At best I see applying the golden rule and trying to set example that others wish to emulate. Who knows we may eventually hit a critical mass and achieve world enlightenment. In the realms of the multiverse all outcomes are possible.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Are we talking about when putting women on pedestals began in literature or in society? We might have to look further back into Greece and Rome to see some of the beginnings and the downfall of those beginnings?

a reply to: Bassago

Good to see you my friend, How are you feeling these days?

Live by the Golden Rule, Hummm, Love to, when my neighbor does I will, that's the problem right?

Like Global Warming, The Pages and Pages of Hate that goes on in those threads, when it's very easy,,,There's only one answer and it's the Right Answer, It's My Answer!!!!!!
Got It!
What Ya Drinking,,, Yea Bar Tender, Get Your Cute Tight A$$ Over Here
My wife serves a mean, Rum & Coke,,,,,,,

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DISRAELI

Are we talking about when putting women on pedestals began in literature or in society? We might have to look further back into Greece and Rome to see some of the beginnings and the downfall of those beginnings?

In society basically, (Oh,,, Thank you for Tomorrow nights Dinner idea, my husband also read what you have cooked and we both agree, That is for us, Thank You!)
Oh, I need to add, people need to understand, that is a Very, Very, Very Healthy Dish, Very good for your Digestive system and Heart.

Now, I had taken issue with the whole idea of women being taken care of, and not pulling their own weight.
like setting trap to kill supper or build a shelter, but setting waiting for the Cave man to return with the meat and all that B S.
My point was, History was written by Men!
So, naturally, the little woman was helpless and only good for cleaning and cooking and pushing out kids.
I don't agree with that!
What if history had been written by a woman,,,, we'd have a bunch of Girlie Men in the Cave huddled next to the fire crying!

a reply to: guohua

Oh yeah, I'll have a double Jack Daniels on ice with a splash of Coke if you please. Short glass and no more than half a dozen or so as I'm easily confused and worse might create a new thread in the Mud-Pit.

The Pages and Pages of Hate that goes on in those threads, when it's very easy,,,There's only one answer and it's the Right Answer, It's My Answer!!!!!!

I try to skip the hate threads/posts but you're right sometimes difficult to avoid, especially when it gets brought into a thread you just made. Just ignoring those posts which sometimes seems to drive the frenzy. OK I got a little bit of a mean streak but I'm trying to do better.

a reply to: ketsuko
I was looking in literature for evidence of social attitudes.
In poetry there is a long tradition of individual lovers putting their own girl on a pedestal, but I was trying to set that aside and look for signs of treating women in general like that. The first probably spreads across all classes and times, the second may be a little more abstract and idealistic.