The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories (The Truth About MH17, Why Do People Not Want To See It?)

originally posted by: 3v0lv3r
I take your point and understand your position, but there is another thread of data in the mix that makes the "rebel mistake" theory a bit more complicated. The flight path for the MH17 flight is usually much further south and at a higher altitude than ended up being the case for this particular flight. This information makes me believe Kiev was in on it. The remaining question is whether it was a matter of Kiev sending the plane into harms way, knowing that the rebels had a BUK and an itchy trigger finger, or whether they sent it to where they had planted their own BUK close to rebel territory and felt confident they could pin it on them. The other wild card is the eyewitness reports about jets escorting the plane before it went down and whether the jets were an "insurance policy" that served to make the rebels believe it was a high value target or made sure that the plane went down, even if the ground fire failed to get the job done.
a reply to: aguywhoknowsaguy

There's another theory. That the 1300kg of lithium batteries were some kind of bomb. There was tightened airport security with regard to laptops and mobile devices in that they must be able to be powered up.

Flight MH370 had a large consignment of lithium batteries, which mysteriously were being flown from Malaysia to China and not the other way round. With MH17, this consignment was being flown from Amsterdam to Malaysia. Why ... ? Just about anything manufactured comes from China. So who was flying over 1000kg of lithium batteries back to China by air freight?

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

I agree that it was most probably pro-russian rebels, based on the 'evidence', but can we PLEASE stop utilising Occams cursed Razor.

It is a fairly trivial thing said almost a 1000 years ago that does NOT apply in today's world. Or at least, does not hold a place in being applied to everything imaginable.

Why? Because it is so easy to present a fabricated 'simple answer' to people, and then utilise the evil that is Occams Razor to make them feel like they logically have to accept your proposition.

This allows some very dangerous games to be played. Especially when apparently so many intelligent people are completely brainwashed by a concept a 5 year old can spout ("go with the simple answer").

Occams Razor is NOT a LAW. Yet, everyday on ATS it is used like a law. It is even applied to OUTSIDE the universe lol. Truly spectacular to watch.

So to repeat, YES, based on the presented 'evidence', all logic and rationale point to the simple answer presented to us. However, we ALL know here that every piece of evidence presented regarding MH17 (from the west and east) could easily have been fabricated, or bent to the truth.

Maybe in this case it is what it is. In fact, it seems highly probable. But applying Occams Razor to everything and anything will NOT help humans in the long run.

TLDR version; Occams Razor good for strictly scientific approaches and the process of hypothesising. Applying it to things like this, and expecting it to work like a fundamental law of the universe - big no no in my opinion.

The simple answer to the OPs origional questions is . . .

People want to believe there is something more.

A molecule is not small enough. Something must be smaller.
An atom is not small enough. Something must be smaller.
A neutron is not small enough
Quark . . . .

An idiot pressing the launch button when he isn't sure what's up there isn't simple enough.

originally posted by: samkent

An idiot pressing the launch button when he isn't sure what's up there isn't simple enough.

It is too simple.

The evidence against anybody is circumstantial so far, and I fail to understand why the OP's used the claim that no one but the rebels had a BUK system as the backbone of the opening post, when Russia, Ukraine and the rebels all claim they had such a system, and the rebels also claim that the BUK system was nicked OFF the Ukraine forces, and Ukraine is supposed to have quite a few BUK systems and the missiles post Soviet era, that much noted by Reuters back a while,

"But if an SA-11 Buk missile, known as "Gadfly" in NATO, struck the aircraft and killed all 298 on board, that won't solve the mystery of who did it: Russia, Ukraine and Russian-speaking rebels have all claimed the missile in their arsenals."

Again something the OP has not dealt with, is just exactly what information western intelligence had in the run up to the tragedy of a civilian arliner being shot down. You see if you listen very carefully to what is being said to the media by politicos, the western intelligence sources knew damn well who had what at any given time. That is an indictment on our goverments in the west, because knowing what they did, all overflights of Ukraine should have been banned some time ago.
Just yesterday a conservative MP blurted out the knowledge of military movements in the 'war zone' when talking to a BBC reporter, but the reason he said that was to reinforce the UK's case for more sanctions on Russia, he didn't seem to realise the importance of what he was saying in regard MH17 being allowed to be there in the first place.
There's no doubt in my mind, that given what was known by 17th July, no civilian aircraft should have been anywhere over the Ukraine.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

There is actually a psychological disorder that causes people to believe anything is conspiracy. I, for one, believe there are conspiracies, but a high number of members here believe that everything that happens is a conspiracy.

Paranoia and the Root of Conspiracy Theories

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

"The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories"


You mean like this?

19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort coc aine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.

Like that one?

Conspiracy or not, it's sad that the deaths of 300 people becomes entertainment fodder. I recall the line from the song Dirty Laundry, "We got the bubble headed bleach blonde comes on at five, She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye." Our world has become very scary indeed.

a reply to: Wiregrab

Our world has been scary for a long, long time my friend. This is nothing new.

The biggest change in recent times has been the awesome power of the Internet to deliver information/propaganda much quicker and with more effectiveness.

Forget everything you know, erase your memory here comes the proof of all proves and nothing more then the proof

Looking at the specs of this BUK missile system :

The acquisition radar component (several variants have differing capabilities) allows the system to identify, track and target selected targets.

Does that mean you could be completly retarded and still know whoam you target?

The command component is intended to discern "friendly" military aircraft from foes (IFF), prioritize multiple targets, and pass radar targeting information to the missile launchers.

The missile launcher component can carry a variety of missiles (as listed below) and may be able to engage more than one target simultaneously.

The logistics component carries additional (reload) missiles and provides other supplies and parts for the system and the operators.

Alternatively, the command component may be able to remotely detonate the missile

wow theres a switch off button...?

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Conspiracy Theory is a Newspeak term. I wouldn't use it unless you deliberately want to make yourself look bad.

Furthermore, "tweets" from social media sites are hardly grounds for incriminating evidence.

This is a very sad thread.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Furthermore, what exactly is the motive for Russia wanting to shoot down a civilian air liner in the first place?

This quite a paradoxical thread... and Im not even talking about the fact that it was posted on a 'conspiracy forum'

Im talking about how.. If russia had all the same type of weak and circumstantial evidence that the west has against them and pointed it the other direction.. it would be a "debunkers dream"

The way this thing is unraveling, there is a lot more evidence which is now pointing toward the Ukrainian Military..

Really, the only objective stance at this point is - its still to early to point the finger at either side.. and the fact that the West was so quick to make hasty accusations, in my mind, only hurts their credibility.

Im absolutely not by any means pro-Russian, but I am pro objectivity...

...it would be nice if the US would quit beating around the bush though, and release the satellite images which are so crucial to the investigation...

originally posted by: SUBKONCIOUS

The way this thing is unraveling, there is a lot more evidence which is now pointing toward the Ukrainian Military..

Shhhhhh...the TV people want you to accept the story you were handed. Why must you question it? Didn't this badly written OP shame you enough for thinking past the TV-screen???

When will you be a good American and just nod and hate who they tell you to hate?

Even though this entire chaos SCREAMS manipulation and propaganda, I am watching dumb and smart people alike demanding there is nothing to see here. Nothing to see.

I find it odd when I see a hero(s) of mine on this thread so quick to support and endorse the hole-filled story that is being handed to us thus far. I find it very very VERY odd how quick everyone is blaming one side over the other in a time of war, based on tweets, hate, state controlled news outlets and speculation.

The OP in this thread basically made me sick. Its like 9-11 all over again. YOU don't believe the official story?!! YOU IZ DUMB BRO! OS IS THE TRUTHS YO!!!


MM

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
Yes, imho most conspiracy theories are silly. I like to think of it this way - there is no World Conspiracy but there are conspiracies in the world. Some small, some large and false flag opereations are not unheard of through history. Why there is no world conspiracy? Because the "system" takes care of it to the same effect as the "illuminati" would if still live, kicking and dominating the world (and evil, I get the impression that they ware good guys back in the day). To put it another way, industrial society is hard to beat and to thrive within it you almost have to be a sociopath or have no balls at all (or be extremely skilled, but that's so rare it doesn't count). Remember, normal people thrive when they are able to complete tasks alone or as part of a small group.. If you rebell against it you can't have the same technological abilities as those who don't. Nerds led by hawks are quite hard to beat. This is greatly examplified in the movie The Last Samurai (the movie ends with all brave samurais being proudly slaughtered by poor soliders with superoir weapons). So general conspiracy theories are not exactly wrong, but an after construction. They could be true, but so many other scenarios could lead to the same end result.

Of course the rebels shot it down. Those tweets are genuine and come from the account of the Donetsk leader. Yes, the voice intercepts are genuine, Ukraine has released them before. The day that happened pro-Russian rebel posters were posting the rebels downed a plane believed to be a AN-22. You can find all the info on the internet, and on in the same area the flight went down.

The truth is this site is a favorite target of Russian propaganda. Russia purposely targets conspiracy theorist websites to muddy the waters. A group of Cossack's took a BUK system from the Ukraine military and the drunk idiots downed the plane. Could have been another group, but most likely this one.


These outlandish non credible theories are just madness. Ukraine is winning the war, why would they false flag a plane? Russian rebels have shot down planes before. They got training from Russia, most likely, or some had missile system experience before, most likely.

Now Putin paid trolls are descending on this thread. Its worthless to argue because they will post lie after lie to make you not sure. Pretty clear cut the rebels downed it, it was posted all over liveleak by Russian accounts and then after it was found out to be civilian, deleted. It was posted more than 30 times and they thought it was military.

So you are saying that just because its on the internet (Twitter) It must be true? Good thinking...
ALWAYS think outside of the box, always make questions!

Bottom line on this, false flag or not, innocent airliners get taken down from time to time either through terrorism or accidental shoot downs, the US Navy did it with an Iranian plane. It is the tragedy of conflict. But anytime there is a danger zone the airliner should go around, I wouldn't fly with one that has a record of not doing that.
Personally I think it was an accidental shoot down, a guy has a few too many vodka's get trigger happy, too easy.
I don't think they would have fired if they new what plane it really was. Either way it's very sad.

originally posted by: JackSylvane
So you are saying that just because its on the internet (Twitter) It must be true? Good thinking...
ALWAYS think outside of the box, always make questions!

Funny how pro-russian shills never view moscow the same way. Never any question that Putin is telling the truth, is there? The catholics should seriously consider canonizing Putin once he passes, as he is obviously the most saintly and truthful man alive, upright in all his ways and incapable of telling a lie. At least you would think so if you listen to the pro-russians around here. It's always "question everything" and "don't believe the propaganda". Unless of course it's Russian propaganda. That is beyond reproach, and not to be questioned at all.