Who wrote the Torah?

a reply to: undo

Genesis 1:26 onwards has a very complex structure and syntax, and explaining it adequately... well I give up even before starting to analyse these verses, it's a wasps' nest. A cabal of sorts, and it's very hard to understand and translate it properly into modern languages. That said, Biblical Hebrew is actually quite "modern" in it's structure. Which is rather odd.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

you mean the royal "we" form? oh i agree that's indicated in the creation of the adam male and female passage. however, i think the idea it is constantly the royal we, is incorrect, unless that royal we indicates other gods are in agreement, THEN, sure, it's the royal we with the we being here represented as a body composed of multiple gods, agreeing in unison on an action or topic. did you read the link regarding the meaning of elohim? it applies to other gods, to the dearly departed, and so on.

Well, as far as I'm concerned the heavenly Father suggested making little ones with the heavenly Mother in Gen. 1:26. When male and female form a procreational union, two become one.

i watched a really good video on WHAT created the universe. mechanically, the universe was created by super massive black holes. now if the elohim came to be associated with black holes, it makes sense that it would be said that the elohim as black holes, created the universe.

but i'd like to offer an even more perplexing issue regarding the opening verses of genesis. in the second verse it says the earth became tohu and bohu (void and desolate). well, it was translated to say the earth WAS tohu and bohu, but the word there doesn't translate to WAS, it does however, translate to BECOME. the correct tense for the passage, of the word become is not "was", it's BECAME. so that means the second verse of the bible is not talking about the creation of the earth, but later in the timeline, when something happens to make the earth become tohu and bohu and the creation of the lifeforms and so forth, is actually a RE-creation. here is where the elohim/atum that the adam are copied from, comes in. they were the prior lifeforms on this planet before a massive cataclysm that wiped out their civilizations. as a result, i think the noah's flood story is a double layered affair, having evidence of both a massive cataclysm that required evacuation of its lifeforms, perhaps as part of a dna bank, and a not so massive cataclysm that resulted in saving the royal barnyards.

Eretz, the word for Earth in Gen 1:1 is a funny one. It can be translated in quite a few ways depending on the context. Earth, land, world, even Eden and the Holy Land. Compare this part of Genesis 1 with the opening lines in the Norse Voluspå in the Elder Edda. Much similar indeed.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

watch this video. all the way to the end.

super massive black holes created the universe

Let me just say this. Hebrew grammar is very complex, or at least that's how it seemed to me when I was studying Hebrew. I'm pretty skeptical about anyone trying to say what some grammatical thing in Hebrew 'really' means, especially without sources to back it up. Even when I thought I learned some grammatical structure, when I would actually read scripture in Hebrew the translation would be different from what I had understood that specific conjugation to mean. So, it's complex, not something that you can just know that simply.

As for 'when' the earth was formless and void. Just thinking philosophically, formlessness precedes form. Emptiness precedes manifestation. If the 'time' of the void was meant to indicate it's becoming void after a previous state, then it would be an allusion to cyclic existence, imo. But I think the more obvious teaching is as I said, emptiness preceding manifestation, formlessness preceding form.

a reply to: TheJourney

the angels were created before we were. perhaps this was one of their planets. all i know is the verse suggests that the universe + earth was created and then some indeterminate amount of time later, the earth ends up in a cataclysmic state. since the bible is really not about what happened before homo sapiens, it just skips what happened before, although there are small snippets and hints through out the text.

btw, i did back it up with the original hebrew.
if elohim (a plural word) creates adam (a plural word as it represents mankind), male and female, he/they are either creating hermaphrodites OR the adam were a race of males and females, created/copied from prior existing elohim.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: TheJourney

the angels were created before we were. perhaps this was one of their planets. all i know is the verse suggests that the universe + earth was created and then some indeterminate amount of time later, the earth ends up in a cataclysmic state. since the bible is really not about what happened before homo sapiens, it just skips what happened before, although there are small snippets and hints through out the text.

btw, i did back it up with the original hebrew.
if elohim (a plural word) creates adam (a plural word as it represents mankind), male and female, he/they are either creating hermaphrodites OR the adam were a race of males and females, created/copied from a prior existing elohim.

Saying something isn't backing it up. Adam is NOT a plural word. Yes it can be used to refer to mankind in general, but that doesn't make it a plural word. One idea is that the original Adam was neither male nor female, or both male and female, and the 'creation' of Eve was simply the splitting up of the male/female Adam into separate sexes. Which could then be a metaphor for unity preceding duality.

You're not backing up 'hayah' meaning that it came into being that way from an existing state. Strong's concordance gives a variety of distinct meanings it can have, one of which being what you are asserting, one of which being the traditional translation, 'was,' so unless you have real evidence to back it up it seems your understanding of its meaning/translation is no more or less legitimate than the usual one.

mankind in general, but that doesn't make it a plural word.

mankind implies many, not one. and some of them were female. they just weren't procreative yet. so male or female, meant nothing to them, as they had no sex drives. that's the big secret in the text.

i think it went something like this:

first there's a massive cataclysm. the lifeforms deemed worthy / necessary for the re-terraforming of the planet, are either onboard, bodily, or are present in a dna database. from this, the lifeforms are recreated. the adam male and female are copied from the elohim, who are a race of gods. one of them in particular, is a creator, a life doctor, a geneticist. he creates new lifeforms from pre-existing lifeforms, using his own dna and the dna of several female elohim. the new adam are not humans yet, as they are copies of elohim males and females. they are eternal beings, with eternally regenerating dna, however, because they were created to help rebuild the planet, they are created a little dumber than the angels, so they can be servants instead of leaders.

fast forward. according to the sumerian texts, they begin to protest from being overworked and stage a worker's strike in front of the dwelling of the owner of the planet, who is a particularly mean elohim. all work stops. he calls for the elohim geneticist who created the workers, to solve the problem as now there are not enough workers to do the work. the geneticist is elsewhere at the time, and when he returns he solves the problem by giving the workers the ability to make copies of themselves, then tells them to go forth, be fruitful (work) and multiply (procreate).

however, the owner of the planet does not like this solution, as the resulting over population of eternally regenerating procreators will wreck his planet, so he demands in the divine court that the geneticist block the section of dna that allows for eternal regeneration (the way to the tree of life is blocked) so that the workers will work till they die. because the planet belongs to him, under divine law, he is allowed to make such demands. however, the geneticist elohim, does not like this solution and vows to the people that he will come again and solve the problem.

now fast forward a few thousand years and the geneticist, the master physician who created us, shows up as jesus. the rest is history.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

you mean the royal "we" form? oh i agree that's indicated in the creation of the adam male and female passage. however, i think the idea it is constantly the royal we, is incorrect, unless that royal we indicates other gods are in agreement, THEN, sure, it's the royal we with the we being here represented as a body composed of multiple gods, agreeing in unison on an action or topic. did you read the link regarding the meaning of elohim? it applies to other gods, to the dearly departed, and so on.

Well, as far as I'm concerned the heavenly Father suggested making little ones with the heavenly Mother in Gen. 1:26. When male and female form a procreational union, two become one.

And there's another hint in the verb used for create in Genesis 1:1 Heb. verb 'bara'. That is very similar to Heb. noun 'bar', as in Jeshuah bar Joseph or Bar Mitzvah. Bar means literally 'son'. Shamayim and Eretz (Heavens and Earth) were Elohim's first sons? As in the Sons of the Heavens and the Sons of Earth?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

maybe so? did you watch the video i linked a few posts ago? there's a reason i linked it and if you've watched it, then i can go on to the next part of my reasoning for posting it. watch whole thing if you haven't yet. believe me, it's worth watching it all

super massive black holes

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
And there's another hint in the verb used for create in Genesis 1:1 Heb. verb 'bara'. That is very similar to Heb. noun 'bar', as in Jeshuah bar Joseph or Bar Mitzvah. Bar means literally 'son'. Shamayim and Eretz (Heavens and Earth) were Elohim's first sons? As in the Sons of the Heavens and the Sons of Earth?

Hmm, definitely an interesting thought. Although technically 'bar' is Aramaic, the Aramaic version if the Hebrew 'Ben.' Not sure when Aramaic came into existence relative to hebrew and the writing of the Torah.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

My take on Gen 1:

Bara also means to birth. And "in the beginning" is one word reshiyth, which is a cognate of rosh head. reshiyth is translated very often as first fruits.

Genesis 1:1 is describing the birth of the first fruits. And the rest of the first creation account is a birds eye view of the evolution of mankind. The earth being formless and void are referring to us, and then God said let there be light

"For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"

Each of the days is a stage in our personal and universal development. The 6th day, the day of man and beast (666) is the final revelation before entering our rest. The day of the Lord (7th day) will not come until the son of perdition is revealed who is the one who sets himself in the seat of God in the temple.

Don't you know you are the temple of God?

19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

The 6th day is the unveiling of the beast which is the person you see when you look in the mirror. This coincides with and precedes the unveiling of the Sons of God, which brings in the 7th day for all of creation.

In the temple there was the veil that was woven of babylonian design. With cherubim's on it (the cherubim are beasts). That is symbolic of the flesh (He entered through the veil of his flesh, entered into His rest aka the 7th day).

1 Cor 13
For now we see in a mirror an enigma (the changing faces of the cherubim=the babylonian veil=flesh)
but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.(the veil is removed and the bride and husband see face to face)

2 Cor 3
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

We are in the 6th day. The beast is being revealed. All creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the Sons of God.

The beast is you and me in our minds of flesh, which is the 6th day (day man/beast was created).


Heb 4
4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Heb 10
19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

The creation=the temple=US, the 6th day is the veil, which is the beast/cherubim/flesh,

when we enter through the veil of flesh we reach the Holy of Holies=7th day=Rest=Unveiling of the Sons of God=Revelation/uneiling of Jesus Christ in you the hope of glory

There are 7 stages to the tabernacle 3 veils, 3 courts and outside the outer court. Just as there are 7 feasts, which starts you in Egypt (death, formless and void), and ends in the Holy of Holies/Promised land/7th day, which is the feast of tabernacles/7th feast (word tabernacling in us/word became flesh/two shall become one)

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

My take on Gen 1:

Bara also means to birth. And "in the beginning" is one word reshiyth, which is a cognate of rosh head. reshiyth is translated very often as first fruits.

I picked up my Strong's and looked for possible connections to similar words, and it turns out 'bar' in it's most primitive or general state means any kind of grain or seed, even while standing in the field, by extension the open country, and a field. 'Ben' as Journey illustrated, is also 'son' and used as a builder of the family name similar to how 'Bar' is used. Ba'ar means to kindle or burn with fire, while fire is Be'era. Could this be an allusion to slash-and-burn? Slash-and-burn is a primitive and quite effective way to fertilise the ground and turn it into farmland, you simply hack down and burn all vegetation at a select spot and what's left is fertile ground ready to be turned into tons of cereal and wine. That, and how the sons of God are supposed to be created from fire, i don't know...

[…]And the rest of the first creation account is a birds eye view of the evolution of mankind.

I see it the other way around, as a prophecy; I see Genesis 1 as the development of religion and civilisation as experienced through terrestrial eyes. That first, the Earth was desolate and void and the Spirit of God was the center of faith. Then came Light, and night and day, which was then worshipped and the first calendars developed and so on, people started harvesting the sea, and agriculture started, herding of animals while the clouds cleared and they saw the bodies of the Light for the first time and astrology was developed etc etc. We are now at the development stage when we will make copies of ourselves and other lifeforms and design new life and so on.

"For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"
[…]
Hopefully that wasn't too confusing

Paul's ramblings are just that. Confusing It's why the letters were made Paul turned Jesus into what he ain't and managed to sell it to the Greeks and the Romans who promptly founded a religion so far from the original message it's not even annoying, for it's so methodic and thoroughly done that you expect they must have understood something profound that all of a sudden invalidates the Law of Moses and replace it with a mystical biography of a Jewish rabbi going all Mithras and the Pauline keys to "understand" it. It's quite a remarkable feat. But he made it. It's like,

"They can't seriously get away with it?, Can they?"
"I'm afraid they do, if the lie is grand enough, Anyone believes it, or so it seems anyway..."

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
And there's another hint in the verb used for create in Genesis 1:1 Heb. verb 'bara'. That is very similar to Heb. noun 'bar', as in Jeshuah bar Joseph or Bar Mitzvah. Bar means literally 'son'. Shamayim and Eretz (Heavens and Earth) were Elohim's first sons? As in the Sons of the Heavens and the Sons of Earth?

Hmm, definitely an interesting thought. Although technically 'bar' is Aramaic, the Aramaic version if the Hebrew 'Ben.' Not sure when Aramaic came into existence relative to hebrew and the writing of the Torah.

Indeed. In Hebrew, Bar means seed or grain as far as I can see from a quick look in Strong's, I have to get deeper than that to make a better assumption, gonna be much better when I get my BDB and a few other lexicons available. But as far as I know, even in the time of Jesus, Hebrew as a language was considered archaic and apart from being the word used in the Torah it was a dead or extinct language, much like Latin compared to Italian today or Koine Greek compared to modern Greek. Biggest difference between Aramaic and Hebrew is the script or alefbet used. The alefbet we call Hebrew is infact Aramaic (the "square" script used in Israel today). The Hebrew alefbet looks more like Norse runes actually.

a reply to: undo

No, I didn't. I'm not that fascinated by black holes to be honest. They exist and can only be detected because of the nothingness they represent, how they show up as a black spot on the screen, almost like Russian subs. Saying anything about them with any kind of certainty is a crusade to fallacy it seems. They may or may not exist, and they may or may not be the solution to the origins and purpose of the Universe(s) and so on, but until there is something more substantious than fancy computer graphics and far less fluctuations in essence and sense, I normally choose ignore it together with Tesla tech and quantum generators.

However, sometimes something shows up catching my attention, and your video somehow didn't, you know, catch that vibe. If you wrote a few words about what it shows, perhaps I'll change my mind.

a reply to: TheJourney

A little more on differencies between Biblical Hebrew vs. Aramaic. Both normally followed a verb–subject–object (VSO) syntax, while Persian Aramaic followed the Akkadian SOV order. You also see SVO structures in both ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, but at their cores they are VSO.

Israel first fell to Assyria, then later Judah fell to Babylon, and when Babylon fell to Persia, the Persians allowed Jews to return to the Promised Land. During this process Aramaic developed and was introduced and used alongside Hebrew, and eventually became the language of the remnants after Israel, while Hebrew prevailed in Judah as the language of the Jews (from "Judah", first used in the time of Daniel).

en.wikipedia.org...

Whereas other Northwest Semitic languages, like Hebrew, have the absolute and construct states [of nouns and adjectives], the emphatic/determined state is a unique feature to Aramaic.
[…]
The Aramaic verb has gradually evolved in time and place, varying between varieties of the language. Verb forms are marked for person (first, second or third), number (singular or plural), gender (masculine or feminine), tense (perfect or imperfect), mood (indicative, imperative, jussive or infinitive) and voice (active, reflexive or passive). Aramaic also employs a system of conjugations, or verbal stems, to mark intensive and extensive developments in the lexical meaning of verbs.

The Syriac Aramaic script looks quite similar to Arabic. Syriac Aramaic has some prominence these days because of the discovery of a NT codex written in that language. I don't know so much about it, but I know it's supposed not to include the Apocalypse. I have sniffers out, but getting a good copy still costs too much. Hope to get my hands on one soon.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

the video explains that they have found a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxy they've studied. the information says that when the black hole feeds on gas/debris/planets/stars, it goes into quasar mode, or what they call active phase. during active phase, the black hole emits a descending and ascending radiation jet from it's center that look like gigantic pillars of light and it does this because the material it is feeding off of, is being recycled into the radiation jets that are emitting new, reorganized material into space. the milky way has a super massive black hole as well, but its currently in inactive phase. they explain exactly, i mean exactly, how this happened to create the galaxies, although they don't explain where the gases came from that the original black holes fed on, nor how the black holes themselves just suddenly appeared and began feeding on the gases. the gases were just there. and the black holes just came into existence, seemingly that's quite interesting, doncha think? you should watch it till the end.

well, in the book of enoch, he is taken up in a "vision" by an angel, and shown various celestial and terrestrial and apparently, other dimensional stuff. one of things he is shown, matches the description of a super massive black hole in active phase and one in inactive phase. but to realize this, you actually have to have the scientific description of at least a quasar and more specifically, a super massive black hole in active phase.

further evidence of the elohim using black holes/worm holes, is scattered through out the texts of the ancient world. so when you ask who wrote the torah, it helps to realize the intellect behind its information is actually science to the nth degree, that we simply did not recognize for the first 6000 + years of written history.

a reply to: undo

OK. So it's not just about black holes, it is about black holes that turn into quasars? Makes sense. Let me guess, they are also wormholes and portals to other dimensions where the Cheshire Cat lives? Sorry for being an arse here, but I have a hard time seeing how black holes relate to linguistics, that's all.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

We will have a proper discussion about Paul when I have time my friend . For now the verse you picked is mirrored in 3 other places. 2 in the gospels, and 1 in 2 Peter.

a reply to: zardust

Hehe, robbing Peter to pay Paul I guess. Jokes aside, I just don't buy into the religion bit about Jesus, well, not the Church version anyway. To me he is just an interesting character who unfortunately became the object of massive worship in ways he himself condemned. As I have said on a few occasions I really only consider two books in the bible divine. The first and the last, Genesis and Revelation. The other books of the Bible are secondary to me. I have a few more books in my "canon" but it's ever changing. For fun, try rearranging the books of NT after when they arrived in time, chronologically. At the time Revelation was written, none of the gospels were around, and knowing that, it's quite easy to see what John meant with a Rome based worldwide worship of a Beast that was slain, but was resurrected. Just a thought.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You must not have caught my allusion to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The word revelation is unveiling, apokolypsis G602 is the same as apokolupto G601. G601 is apo=away from/separate + kalupto=veil
that word kalupto is the same word used in 2 Cor 2:4 which I quoted above. Not that this proves anything just showing its connections

The entire vision is filled with 1st temple symbolism. This was a direct affront to the second temple and its 'jews' aka brood of vipers from Babylon.

Anyway the Unveiling of Jesus Christ is the theme and purpose of the book of 'Revelation', the light in the middle of the seven lamps or churches corresponds with the light shining in the darkness, and also with the mystery that was unveiled written about in Ephesians, Collosians, and Jesus' teachings on the kingdom of heaven being within.

We see this summed up in the NJ coming down out of heaven adorned like a bride for her husband. This corresponds with the allegory as shown by Paul in Galatians, which was written way before Revelation of Sarah vs. Hagar. This theme of heavenly and earthly, is carried throughout Paul, Hebrews, Revelation, and Is woven throughout the OT, these were signs planted, these signs are now elucidated in the book of Revelation (of Jesus Christ).

I'm not proposing an inerrant book or anything like that, but seed within chaff, diamond within field, spiritual within natural.

I know you don't see it, no big whoop. Doesn't mean I won't stop trying. I'm not pushing any religion btw. That is the exact opposite, and I think you and I agree on the difference between ecclesia and church, bride and whore.

My goal is life abundantly. Not bondage to man or system

Shalom