Who wrote the Torah?

According to “the documentary hypothesis” (DH) or “the Wellhausen hypothesis”, the current paradigm of centuries of textual criticism and other linguistic analysis, says that the Torah is the product of - or a patchwork made from - four main, separate and distinctive sources; The Javist Source, The Eloist Source, The Deuteromist Source, and The Priestly Source. The Javist and the Eloist texts are attributed to two single and separate authors, representative for the kingdoms of Judah and Israel respectively, while the latter two were written and designed in quorum by many authors:

Wellhausen hypothesis (DH) ==> en.wikipedia.org...
Javist (J) ==> en.wikipedia.org...
Eloist (E) ==> en.wikipedia.org...
Priestly (P) ==> en.wikipedia.org...
Deuteronomist (D) ==> en.wikipedia.org...

For instance the mountain called Mt. Sinai (20 times) in J and P, is called Mt. Horeb or “the Mountain of God” (14 times) in E and D. All of the four main sources belong to the stage of Hebrew called Classical Biblical Hebrew, which is earlier than the Hebrew of the post-exilic, Persian period, known as Late Biblical Hebrew (post-Babylon or after 587 BC). The language in J and E is from the earliest stage of Biblical Hebrew, while P is of later (less archaic) Hebrew. D is even more modern, allthough there seems to be some controversy about which is older than the other (P older than D or D older than P), thus we can establish that J and E are the two oldest sources which were later accompanied by P and finally the synoptical D comes as a further much later addition to the Torah around the Babylonian Exile.

You can’t really study the Torah without being aware of these things. I recommend a book written by Richard Elliott Friedman called “The Bible with Sources Revealed” ==> www.amazon.com... The book is in all essence a translation of the Torah, but where the different sources are marked by different colours and typography. This book includes several additional sources that spring out from the four main proto-texts (J, E, P and D) like how he divides D into Dtn, Dtr, Dtr1, Dtr2 and R. Great for looking up the sources quickly and a must for anyone studying the Torah in my opinion.

The below is from en.wikipedia.org...

the Yahwist source (J) : hypothetically written c. 950 BCE in the southern Kingdom of Judah.

the Elohist source (E) : hypothetically written c. 850 BCE in the northern Kingdom of Israel.

the Deuteronomist (D) : hypothetically written c. 600 BCE in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform.

the Priestly source (P) : hypothetically written c. 500 BCE by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in exile in Babylon.

ETA: I was uncertain of where to put this thread, so if mods figure out it belongs to "Religion, faith, and theology" feel free to bounce it over.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That's a good question. S&F

I've always wondered where 'they' came up with the source material to write down.

a reply to: Snarl

There has been done similar exercises to the NT gospels too. You might have read about Gospel-Q or similar, a proto-source of the the gospels, and how 'the three synoptical gospels' Mark, Mathew and Luke all rely on one common source Q (as in Fr. Quelle, "Source"), which was written in Aramaic, and how the Gospel of John has Gnostic origins. There is plenty of evidence in Scripture when going through it with Argus eyes, leaving no stone unturned. Also the OT Book of Job is probably even a few centuries older than the Torah.

Much of the Bible is written as songs and poems, not only Psalms and Song of Solomon, Genesis 1 is basically a song and Job is a poem, and many of the prophets have written their prophecies like songs and poems, complete with rhymes, verses, with bridge and chorus. Infact Music was seen as the highest form of worship and only through song could you reach God, hence David's Ladder and how it was music and that certain songs could make the foundations of the Temple vibrate and put the whole Temple in motion.

This is very interesting, I always love reading things like this. The fact that the bible was obviously written by so many different people, at different times and conflicts a lot means that it's obviously not a divine document.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

hence David's Ladder and how it was music and that certain songs could make the foundations of the Temple vibrate and put the whole Temple in motion.

Wouldn't that be something to see?!?

There are some stone pillars that resonate when tapped. I'm of the strongest opinion there are aspects of religious knowledge which have very unfortunately been lost ... or consigned to the category of myth.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
A lot of this writing will have been the collecting of older traditions (e.g. stories, laws) so the question of origin becomes very complex.

originally posted by: CB328
The fact that the bible was obviously written by so many different people, at different times and conflicts a lot means that it's obviously not a divine document.

Not necessarily, because it can be both at the same time.
That may be exactly how God works, by acting through different people at different times and bringing their efforts together.
However, the very varied origns do make it more difficult to see the whole construction as a human-orchestrated conspiracy.

a reply to: CB328
The idea of "the divine book" developed alongside the development of the Church. Different sects held different texts and manuscripts, and the Catholic canon and the later Protestant canon were selected and tailored to be an expression of the integrity and divinity of the books their churches/sects and their given canons.

a reply to: Snarl
Apparently, certain people claimed to have been able to make the whole Kheops Pyramid shake on it's foundations. I have never been able to trace the origin of these claims fully, it's kind of a myth in certain circuits. I recommend listening carefully to the lyrics in Leonard Cohen's song Hallelujah. Sort of sums it up nicely.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Indeed. Like how the "Priestly" Genesis 1 is a synopsis of Enuma Elish which is one of the oldest books we know of, predating the Torah by millennia, and also the "Javist-Priestly" Flood story is obviously far older than the Torah source and is also found in the ancient Mesopotamian library.

There is also clear references to the Indus library with the story of Cain and the Hebrew take on the origins of the ancient Indian caste system and cannabis sacrifice, and how Buddhism, relying on even older traditions, equate killing of animals with killing people, turning the table as for who was the first murderer, Cain, or was it really Abel?

Maybe the brothers Grimm. They wrote other fairy tales.

Intetesting. Ill have to look into this some more.

This is one of the reasons I struggle with the religion I was brought up in (Christianity), and will likely leave all together. The anonymity of the gospels, the fact that half the Pauline works cant be attributed to him, later additions such as Mark 16:9-20, etc. If we cant figure out basic things such as who wrote what, and what verses are added later, then my suspicions rise about the whole Bible. Its supposed to be inspired by God.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: CB328
The fact that the bible was obviously written by so many different people, at different times and conflicts a lot means that it's obviously not a divine document.

Not necessarily, because it can be both at the same time.
That may be exactly how God works, by acting through different people at different times and bringing their efforts together.
However, the very varied origns do make it more difficult to see the whole construction as a human-orchestrated conspiracy.

Bottomline is that the books of the bible were written over a period of more than two, relying on mss spanning nearly three, millennia-- between (roughly) 15th c. BC and 12th c. AD, by a bunch of different people and groups of people. I call the writing style of the Christian Bible a result of what I refer to as Midraistic Rhetorics, where every verse is backed up by several other verses, built like brickwork, one stone on top of the other, held in place through intricate formulae of weight distribution, geometry and style. Reading the books of the bible separately and in their most original wording and language, you soon understand that it is miles away from being as uniform and streamlined as the Vulgate or the Geneva, or any of the modern translations we have available suggest. They are written in very different styles and in several different dialects and languages ranging from Chaldean, Hebrew and Aramaic, and different Greek dialects, spanning a whole world and along the coarse of history.

a reply to: KidOK
What is your reason for assuming that God can't work through anonymous people, just as easily as through named people?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
They are written in very different styles and in several different dialects and languages ranging from Chaldean, Hebrew and Aramaic, in dialects spanning a whole world and along the coarse of history.

Quite so.
I suggest the possibility that this is how God brought the Bible into existence, through the process you describe.

originally posted by: UnBreakable
Maybe the brothers Grimm. They wrote other fairy tales.

Because it is rather silly to always see such bold arrogance of the kind in the previous statement, I submit to you...

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)

Simon Greenleaf, Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the most celebrated legal minds in American history. His Treatise on the Law of Evidence “is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure.”

As a law professor, he determined to expose the “myth” of the resurrection of Christ once and for all, but his thorough examination forced him to conclude, instead, that Jesus did rise from the dead. In 1846 he published An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice.

Go read the entire page here: Source

Enjoy learning history and logic all at once.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes, all agreed. God is existence. The Being in 'human being'.

the four possible sources to create the Torah (from a Wikipedia source)


completely eliminates the writers from the mindset of the Mystical Kabbalah sect...


they are the 'code' mindset people who would weave in the skip-letter code into the supposed 'word-of-God'
just to support their argument that there is 'hidden messages' in the 'WORD' ...Word itself is crypto code for God

these guys see the physical world in a different light than the 'practical, worldly man',,, they attach a lot of Magic/Mystical meanings to otherwise Mundane/worldly history & events... to promote their worldview

IOW.... the Torah itself was a designed "conspiracy" from the Elites who want you as a puppet to manipulate---- "Divinity" is only a creation of these clever puppet-masters




PS.... I am getting sick & tired of my PC freezing up on ATS because of some sort of 'SCRIPT' running slow...

this happens once a day, for the last 3 weeks.... is it because of ATS or is it a slow/outdated driver or something in my PC...
answer anyone ?
tks

originally posted by: CB328
...it's obviously not a divine document.

The odds of Scripture NOT being a divine document are statistically nonexistent.

Scripture IS God-breathed, the laws of probability prove that this is a fact.

The 100% accuracy of prophecies are irrefutable proof that it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to have fulfilled them by chance.

Over a quarter of all the verses in the Bible contain a prediction about the future. Altogether, 737 separate forecasts are made, from some only mentioned once, to others mentioned hundreds of times.

Of these, 594 (over 80%) have already come true. Since those that have not, are all concerned with the end of the world, which obviously has not happened yet, the Bible has actually achieved 100% accuracy. All that could have taken place already has done so, which should be ample grounds for confidence that the rest will also be fulfilled. www.danielpipes.org...

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. " Accuracy Of Prophecy

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.

After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.

Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ

Another attestation to the Bible’s divine authorship is the vast number of detailed biblical prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold. We see the psalmist, for example, telling of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ nearly a thousand years before it occurred (Psalm 22), and hundreds of years before crucifixion was even invented! Simply put, it would be impossible for human beings to have seen so far into the future with such precision and accuracy hundreds of times. Indeed, it would be completely illogical to believe these proven prophecies are anything other than the work of God. Incidentally, and amazingly, probability experts tell us the mathematical odds of just forty-eight prophecies regarding one person (i.e. Christ) coming true as foretold are one in ten to the 157th power!

Is the Bible a fairy tale?

The chances of just 48 out of the 456 prophecies being fulfilled in one person are 1 in 10 to the 157 power.

That's — 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

"All this illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on the probability theory, Emile Borel states that once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur."

LINK

"...once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur....Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 1050 have a zero probability of ever happening.... This is Borel's law in action which was derived by mathematician Emil Borel....

Here is one last illustration of the immensity of the number 10 to the 157th power and why the science of probability shows we are dealing with the miraculous… Imagine one ant traveling at the speed of only one inch every 15 billion years. If he could only carry one atom at a time, how many atoms could he move in 10 to the 157th power of years?

He would, even at that incredibly slow speed, be able to move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion universes the size for our universe, a distance of 30 billion light years! Again, by the laws of probability, all of this means that it is simply impossible for 48 prophecies to be fulfilled by chance. LINK

a reply to: St Udio

You seem hostile to Kabbalah? Is it because you are an "apocalypse Sufi" (as your mood reads)? As far as I'm concerned the Muslim Sufis and the Jewish Kabbalists deals with much the same material. The eternal mantra "As above-- So below".

a reply to: UnBreakable

The sheer IRONY of someone using the moniker 'UnBreakable' comparing something unbreakable to a fairy tale...

Surely God must be VERY amused...

So Scripture is unbreakable, or “indestructible” even. Not in a physical sense – plenty of Bibles have been successfully destroyed by fire. But in the sense that Jesus uses in Matt 2435 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” The doctrine of the unbreakability of Scripture means that God’s words never lose their truth, relevance or power. We never move beyond Scripture, and we never argue with Scripture. Or as J C Ryle explains it

“Wherever the Scripture speaks plainly on any subject, there can be no more question about it. The case is settled and decided. Every jot and tittle of Scripture is true, and must be received as conclusive.”

The Unbreakability of Scripture

Anyone who assumes errors in Scripture contradicts Christ to His face. He said of the whole Scripture and every single word of it “And Scripture cannot be broken.” Those who wish to restrict the inspiration of the Holy Scripture contradict the Apostle of Christ who testifies “All Scripture is inspired of God.”

Scripture Cannot be Broken

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: St Udio

You seem hostile to Kabbalah? Is it because you are an "apocalypse Sufi" (as your mood reads)? As far as I'm concerned the Muslim Sufis and the Jewish Kabbalists deals with much the same material. The eternal mantra "As above-- So below".

not intending to be seen as 'hostile'... just trying to shed the light


my :mood.... upon reflection & discernment actually distills/boils down to the real source -> Shamanism

that is the meaning/essence of Sufi