Hatred Of America Is Greater Than Love Of Freedom For Some On The Left

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by edsinger
Oh I beg to differ,

Beg all youwish....it changes nothing..

there are many times that the choice is either black or white.

In ones perspective yes...in actuality, no..

Sure you must be aware of the big picture but the decisions always comes down to the right or wrong answer.

There is no "right" or "wrong"in the world...only what you believe is the best course of action....meaning the lesser of the two evils...

Ah therein lies your answer and why you are wrong.

Funny on the beg part, it is SLANG!



OK lets look at this from logic,


A 45 year old father molests his 13 year old daughter


Black view - He is a SOB and should pay a steep and heavy price.

White view - He didnt mean it. He is sorry. he promised to never do it again.

Gray view - She was probably asking for it wearing those 'sexy' clothes and she was probably teasing him and he couldn't help it. He can be reformed and maybe he will never do it again.




I do not see any view except the Black one! Why? I have a daughter and would not even hold any credence to the other 2 explanations.



No black or white issues huh?

Abortion for convenience of the mother only, nope no gray area there either.


see?

Originally posted by edsinger
Ah therein lies your answer and why you are wrong.

By your standards and opinion I am wrong and have a problem, I could say the same of you...

Funny on the beg part, it is SLANG!

Yes....but I care not....

OK lets look at this from logic,


A 45 year old father molests his 13 year old daughter


Black view - He is a SOB and should pay a steep and heavy price.

White view - He didnt mean it. He is sorry. he promised to never do it again.

Gray view - She was probably asking for it wearing those 'sexy' clothes and she was probably teasing him and he couldn't help it. He can be reformed and maybe he will never do it again.




I do not see any view except the Black one! Why? I have a daughter and would not even hold any credence to the other 2 explanations.

All you have shown is one example where the black will win...
How about mercy killing on the battlefield...

Black view: "he was dieing anyway, and he was fighting me anyway.."

White view: "he was murdered illegally and is totaly unjustified....the soldier is a murder"

Grey: "the wounded man/women was saved pain but was might have been saved..**

No black or white issues huh?

Abortion for convenience of the mother only, nope no gray area there either.


see?

There is no black and WHITE!
Only grey!
You are showing a one sided opinion and one sided view on the situation THERE IS NO WAY IT CAN BE THE TRUTH!

Originally posted by devilwasp
There is no black and WHITE!
Only grey!
You are showing a one sided opinion and one sided view on the situation THERE IS NO WAY IT CAN BE THE TRUTH!

Well I disagree, in the World today there ARE issues that are Black and white, right or wrong...........

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I disagree, in the World today there ARE issues that are Black and white, right or wrong...........

Can you name some?

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I disagree, in the World today there ARE issues that are Black and white, right or wrong...........

Can you name some?

OK Child porn, redistribution of earned wealth, genocide, shall I keep going?

Originally posted by edsinger
OK Child porn, redistribution of earned wealth, genocide, shall I keep going?

All of those can be argued for and most likely will remain grey, for the whole world is grey.

Last time I checked, Bush was NOT America. Being anti-Bush does NOT make one anti-America. Going by that line of reasoning, if you voted for anyone other than Bush you're a traitor. Now how ridiculous is that? That's why we hold elections, people! If you don't like who's in office you can vote 'em out!

Anyone who suggests that dissent is treason is committing treason themselves. First Amendment, people.

I am not a liberal.

Neocons are very anti-America. They don't believe in the Constitution. The Iraq war is unconstitutional. Bush is just about rolling out the red carpet for illegal aliens--which is unconstitutional. The Patriot Act is unconstitutional.

The President takes an oath at his inauguration, and included in that is defense of the Constitution. Bush has broken that oath time and again, which makes him a huge liar.

The message I'm getting from neocons is, "If you don't support Bush you're a terrorist!"

I beg to differ. It's because I'm a patriot that I did not vote for Bush!

Originally posted by edsinger
I believe this statement is so true in America today and it is just getting worse. When would these people be in favor of war to save themselves?
It is a clear hate for the United States, especially when the US takes a stand and backs it up.

"Hatred Of America Is Greater Than Love Of Freedom For Some On The Left"

If the right loved freedom so much, then why are they constantly fighting to take away our civil liberties?

You know, anti-war =/= anti-American, but anti-constitution == Anti-american.

Just who is pro-America, and who is anti-America?

Bush hasn't been America since he stole the elction in 2000 from Al Gore with the help of his brothe Jethro. If that doesn't tell you something then maybe the following information can. He has let almost triple the amount of illegal aliens then Clinton admitted during his two terms. Bush sent us to war on nothing but a bunch of lies, and look how many have had to pay the price because of it. Also, when he declared "war" on Iraq, he did not let Congress, both the House and Senate, vote on whether or not to go to war. That right there is a direct violation of The Constitution! What he did after Katrina should have got his and Cheney's asses thrown out right there. They should have known that aid was not getting were it was needed. I mean, come on, the guy heading up FEMA at the time could not even run the Arabian Horse Racing Association before Bush committed to that jerkoff. Plus what Bush is doing with this Patriot Act garbage is taking every single freedom away that our forefathers gave us. If you thought that was just the start, you are very mistaken. It would not surprise me if twenty or thirty years down the road, we come to find out that Bush, Cheney, and their NeoCon buddies were behind the attacks of 9-11.

Here are five questions to ask yourself.
My answers are already there, how about your's.
Does not supporting Bush make you a terrorist? I most certainly think not!
Does not supporting Bush and his lies make me Un-Patriotic? I beg to differ!
Do you think that Bush and his cohorts are willingly violating the Constitution by falsely going to war and the laws of the Geneva Convention by committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Iraq? You better believe that they are!
Do you think that Bush willingly let 9-11 happen so he could get his plans for war across so it could make him look like a strong president? Bush knew 9-11 was going to happen, and he did N O T H I N G to stop it from taking place!
Don't you think that it is time for a change in America because we are tired of Bush's thievery and lies? I believe it is time for major change in America!

By the way,

I am an American by birth.
I am a true Patriot by blood.
I AM A LIBERAL BY DEMOCRACY!

For a second there i thought Ed was back with the same rhetoric.

I think even Ed doesnt believe any of this anymore!

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir

Originally posted by edsinger
I believe this statement is so true in America today and it is just getting worse. When would these people be in favor of war to save themselves?
It is a clear hate for the United States, especially when the US takes a stand and backs it up.

"Hatred Of America Is Greater Than Love Of Freedom For Some On The Left"

If the right loved freedom so much, then why are they constantly fighting to take away our civil liberties?

You know, anti-war =/= anti-American, but anti-constitution == Anti-american.

Just who is pro-America, and who is anti-America?

Well the leaders of this country , when they had the chance did not defend freedom.

President Bush hid out in the guard and arguably did not even bother showing up for duty.
Cheney had 5 deferments.
Ashcroft had 7 deferments.
Rove did not serve.
Hastert? Frist? Did not serve.
DeLay Did not serve. In fact, in one of the silliest assertions ever, Delay actually said: "So many minority youths had volunteered that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself."

Chicken-Hawks they be.

Originally posted by edsinger
Ah therein lies your answer and why you are wrong.
Funny on the beg part, it is SLANG!

OK lets look at this from logic,

Your logic is flawed, you are appealing to emotions, in a debate you would have points taken off for such a thing.

A 45 year old father molests his 13 year old daughter

Rape, molestation, and incest happen on a far higher level than is reported. Most women I encounter have had some sort of encounter growing up. Of course, that is primarily due to the fact that teenage boys are monsters and don't become human until a point at which they can control themselves. Some never do.

Black view - He is a SOB and should pay a steep and heavy price.

While I undersand what the law is, I would like to point out that prior to the 1800's, 45 year old men were being married to 12 year olds. Yes, they consummated the marriages on the wedding night. You are suffering from cultural conditioning, while forgetting that historically older men sleeping with Younger women was encouraged as a survival trait for thousands of years.

White view - He didnt mean it. He is sorry. he promised to never do it again.

The white view would be that he is suffering from a dysfunctional association according to society. He needs treatment and some sort of outlet other than little girls for his sexual dysfunction. The girl needs counseling and he needs to be restrained from visiting her.

Gray view - She was probably asking for it wearing those 'sexy' clothes and she was probably teasing him and he couldn't help it. He can be reformed and maybe he will never do it again.

You can't reform a person's sexual proclivities. However, people at times move out of being attracted to their old attractors, and there is no evidence that erotica/pornography of a non-graphic nature encourages sexual offenders.

As for the girl... it can easily be proven by science that some girls before the age of pubescence have a disorder which makes them behave promiscuously and precociously.

The gray is the realization that a situation is isolated to itself... no two events are identical. The gray POV is that there are no absolutes, even amongst what could be considered monsters. Was the child harmed by the sexual offender, or was the child unaware that something wrong had been done? Soceity does much of the psychological damage in how they TREAT the victims of such acts as incest and pedophilia. They treat these children as if they should feel dirty and violated, and children imprint very easily.

That doesn't say that the act isn't wrong in itself... but I do not feel there *is* an absolute wrong. After all, I think it is just as wrong if there is an instance of no HARM being done to the victim (Who isn't a victim at that point) and then having them emotionally scarred because of what society expects to happen when all comes out.

I do not see any view except the Black one! Why? I have a daughter and would not even hold any credence to the other 2 explanations.

That is what is called dissociation in the psychiatric field. You are unwilling to accept alternative possibilities to certain events. Humorously enough, most forms of dissociation are considered to be severe mental illness.

It is understandable that you do not wish your daughter to be harmed, and you also do not wish her to be molested. However, as a father, you also don't want her having sex... but you'll have to deal with that some day.

Granted, as a parent myself, I never want my son molested or harmed in any way. However, if something like that had happened, I would do my best not to make my child feel as if what was done to them is the ultimate perversion of all... because it does no good, it would only harm my child further. However, I am not the norm... and I could just as easily be considered an accessory to such a crime if it were not reported. Mostly I just feel bad for such people that commit these acts, because it is just as hard to control as your own attraction to women, and they are not allowed to look at anything that might "Incite them to the act", even though no evidence supports that concept.

No black or white issues huh?

Really Really, just remember what you WANT to be true about the world doesn't mean it IS... even if all of the laws support your position, that doesn't mean the law is just or right. Only that it's the law.

Abortion for convenience of the mother only, nope no gray area there either.

I consider abortion as a form of birth control to be abhorrent. That being said, places where Abortion is legal have a drop in crimerate. You know why that is? Less UNWANTED children. Yes, there is adoption... but in many cases if the child discovers they're adopted they then have to deal with the concept of being UNWANTED by people who are a part of them.

I also feel it is preferable for a woman to have an abortion if she does not have the mental stability or capability of raising that child in a nurturing and loving environment. I don't think they should have the child in that instance, because there are high instances of such people having children and contributing to the delinquency of the world.

As Paglia said, yes... Abortion is murder. But it is a form of murder which, by all reason, should be a woman's right to choose.

By the by... Hello.

I consider abortion as a form of birth control to be abhorrent. That being said, places where Abortion is legal have a drop in crimerate. You know why that is? Less UNWANTED children. Yes, there is adoption... but in many cases if the child discovers they're adopted they then have to deal with the concept of being UNWANTED by people who are a part of them.

I also feel it is preferable for a woman to have an abortion if she does not have the mental stability or capability of raising that child in a nurturing and loving environment. I don't think they should have the child in that instance, because there are high instances of such people having children and contributing to the delinquency of the world.

As Paglia said, yes... Abortion is murder. But it is a form of murder which, by all reason, should be a woman's right to choose.

Interesting post. Yet, it rings true of most in the psychiatric field who live their lives rationalizing lies with ephemeral explanations and micro-instances of clarity.

It is great that some believe abortion for choice sake is murder. It is unbelievable that many believe it is still rational to rationalize murder for choice sake still....unbelievable.

Children in this time i.e., 2006, are subject to the protection of the law. We as a society do not need to have grown men breeding with 13 year olds to propagate this society as well as having sex with animals...again, let's rationalize child rape with historical anecdotes...unbelievable.

Supporting the KILLING of babies before they see the light of day by saying they will not have as good a life as the next one allowed to LIVE is the liberal thinking that many are growing to reject today. Your intellect, training, course study; your seminars, lectures and plaques of achievement on your walls just bolster your belief in mankind's dream of governing himself. This is not the case and the world is not getting better because of it. Quit fooling your self.

Black and White do exist. Grey also exist. The difference between the three is recognizing when one is appropriate and the other two are not. Liberals in general look for the Grey to relieve themselves of standing on a commitment, taking a stand for TRUTHFULLNESS and seeing with clarity so feelings will not be hurt, hands won't have to wring and fairy tales will come true all the time. Murder is murder. Black. Choice is a funny choice of words Liberals use to affirm and enable women to murder babies for convenience and the other straw rationalizations they , like children caught in a wrong use, to defiantly stand on that wrong in the face of a parent telling them it is indeed BLACK.

If one does not believe in any absolute TRUTH in life, all things can be done by men and some one will stand up and excuse it.

Question. Do these people have a direct line to GOD? I ask because it seems they know the future of all of these dead babies before hand are just saving society the trouble of one more bad apple....who are they to assume that one child is not worthy of life or that one mother may become the person she needs to be because of that baby.....God save you.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Tyriffic]

Originally posted by bodebliss

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir

Originally posted by edsinger
I believe this statement is so true in America today and it is just getting worse. When would these people be in favor of war to save themselves?
It is a clear hate for the United States, especially when the US takes a stand and backs it up.

"Hatred Of America Is Greater Than Love Of Freedom For Some On The Left"

If the right loved freedom so much, then why are they constantly fighting to take away our civil liberties?

You know, anti-war =/= anti-American, but anti-constitution == Anti-american.

Just who is pro-America, and who is anti-America?

Well the leaders of this country , when they had the chance did not defend freedom.

President Bush hid out in the guard and arguably did not even bother showing up for duty.
Cheney had 5 deferments.
Ashcroft had 7 deferments.
Rove did not serve.
Hastert? Frist? Did not serve.
DeLay Did not serve. In fact, in one of the silliest assertions ever, Delay actually said: "So many minority youths had volunteered that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself."

Chicken-Hawks they be.

Wow. Feel better?

Here we see true anecdotal evidence of edsinger's point. This whole response is hate-filled and negative. Nothing offered in a positive way to explain why America has not been attacked since 9/11 or why unemployement is at 4.7 ( the second lowest level since Clinton had it at 4.0 in over a century. Something that actually helps broke minorities like I was 21 years ago have an oppurtunity for employment other than the military option by the way.....

Speaking of Clinton, did he not travel to freaking RUSSIA to spit on America in the 70's----why don't you include that in your laundry list of unpatriotism? I guess Senators serving in the Klu Klux Klan technically does not count as military service either.......?

I served in Gulf War 1 by the way and am a Patriot who looks to see America prosper under DEM or REPUB if possible, but not serving in the military is the norm for politicians is it not?
If libs can only mudlsing in a time of war, then that is not patriotism. That is akin to traitorism. If the Pres or other officials commit a crime that can be settled in a court of law, not in the nearsighted mushy minds of haters, then all should get the punishment they deserve. In the meantime, please stop crying over supposed wrongs five years ago, faulty intel that would not have detoured the war in Iraq anyway, hanging freaking chads and the spilled milk in your diaper and sack up for America.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Tyriffic]

Originally posted by edsinger
I believe this statement is so true in America today and it is just getting worse. When would these people be in favor of war to save themselves?
It is a clear hate for the United States, especially when the US takes a stand and backs it up.

And you, my friend, worship at the alter of WAR.

I've read you long enough to know that you HATE those who hold different views than your own.

Folks, beware those who place loyalty to ANY party above what is best for America, as a whole. Today's so-called Republicans embrace fascism, and are too dim to even understand that.

These are the same folks who claim to hate what Hitler stood for.

It is the SAME idiocy.

Here's an article everyone should read and consider:

Political bias affects brain activity, study finds
Democrats and Republicans both adept at ignoring facts, brain scans show
msnbc.msn.com...

Vote THIRD party!

Speaking of Clinton, did he not travel to freaking RUSSIA to spit on America in the 70's----why don't you include that in your laundry list of unpatriotism? I guess Senators serving in the Klu Klux Klan technically does not count as military service either.......?

I served in Gulf War 1 by the way and am a Patriot who looks to see America prosper under DEM or REPUB if possible, but not serving in the military is the norm for politicians is it not?
If libs can only mudlsing in a time of war, then that is not patriotism. That is akin to traitorism. If the Pres or other officials commit a crime that can be settled in a court of law, not in the nearsighted mushy minds of haters, then all should get the punishment they deserve. In the meantime, please stop crying over supposed wrongs five years ago, faulty intel that would not have detoured the war in Iraq anyway, hanging freaking chads and the spilled milk in your diaper and sack up for America.

Nooooo, he did not go to Russia with love. He went there in a group like 10's of thousands of students go each year to see Russia for themselves.

Road Trip!

You should talk,huh!

Bringing up Clinton after 6 years into another convoluted mental breakdown of another Bush presidency. The only thing that irritates me more is that people still flock to Bush, the loser. He's bankrupting this country with his tax and spend politics.









[edit on 2/11/2006 by bodebliss]

Uh, nice rebuttal.........

I only mentioned Clintons America bashing trip to Ruskie as an example of UN-patriotism at its best in comparison to your "they didn't serve, so they must not be good Americans" motif........

"Tax and spend"???? Uh, you have your parties confused.

And, not flocking to Bush, just pointing out your negativity as opposed to having any good darn ideas that do not involve hate, name- calling and character destruction by libs............try again ......

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Tyriffic]

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[edit on 11-2-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I only mentioned Clintons America bashing trip to Ruskie as an example of UN-patriotism at its best in comparison to your "they didn't serve, so they must not be good Americans" motif........

Well, Clinton didn't do an Oswald while there. Who's blind ? you might be!

"Tax and spend"???? Uh, you have your parties confused.

I don't think so. Bush will double the deficit. Republicans, what hypocrits!

And, not flocking to Bush, just pointing out your negativity as opposed to having any good darn ideas that do not involve hate, name- calling and character destruction by libs............try again ......

I served 4 years in the 82nd abn. They served, not one day. I think it's obvious who is patriotic and who are lying opportunists.

Those flag waving thieves in the republican heirarchy can go to jail like they deserve for all I care.

No sweat off my nose. It's democrats that fight these lousy wars.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
Interesting post. Yet, it rings true of most in the psychiatric field who live their lives rationalizing lies with ephemeral explanations and micro-instances of clarity.

It is great that some believe abortion for choice sake is murder. It is unbelievable that many believe it is still rational to rationalize murder for choice sake still....unbelievable.

Read some Paglia. She's more respectable than a lot of the nonsense reasons for why a woman's freedom to choose makes sense. She at least concedes it is a form of murder, and makes an excellent argument that despite that women should still have the right to be free of an organism feeding off of them.

Just as you have the right to be free of hobos living in your basement. Forcing women to have children they don't want contributes to the degredation of society, there are STUDIES that prove this. Many studies show that legalized abortion effectively lower local crimerates after a generation.

Children in this time i.e., 2006, are subject to the protection of the law. We as a society do not need to have grown men breeding with 13 year olds to propagate this society as well as having sex with animals...again, let's rationalize child rape with historical anecdotes...unbelievable.

Interesting. We as a society don't have a sustaining birth rate, as do most western countries. Even with all the rampant teenage pregnancy, America still doesn't replace it's population. Aside from that, you can pretend civilization as much as you like, your version has only existed for two hundred years... and possibly not even that long. The length of human history dictates that men ARE inclined towards younger women. This shouldn't even be a surprise... but society nowadays draws a line which never existed before. That's the truth.

Supporting the KILLING of babies before they see the light of day by saying they will not have as good a life as the next one allowed to LIVE is the liberal thinking that many are growing to reject today. Your intellect, training, course study; your seminars, lectures and plaques of achievement on your walls just bolster your belief in mankind's dream of governing himself. This is not the case and the world is not getting better because of it. Quit fooling your self.

Considering some of the women I've met, I'd do the abortion for them if they weren't willing to. A child is more than just "A gift from God" it is also partially shaped by it's environment, and if their parents are going to be loser druggies and abusers, the child is better off not being born. I look at things from a situational perspective, because really, you can't argue that some people should have the child because the child has a right to live. It's also silly to expect such horrid people to give up a child for adoption, that happens SOMETIMES, but too many people aren't willing to recognize how incompetent they are as parents and decide to raise the kids while they abuse them and emotionally damage them for life.

Black and White do exist. Grey also exist. The difference between the three is recognizing when one is appropriate and the other two are not. Liberals in general look for the Grey to relieve themselves of standing on a commitment, taking a stand for TRUTHFULLNESS and seeing with clarity so feelings will not be hurt, hands won't have to wring and fairy tales will come true all the time. Murder is murder. Black. Choice is a funny choice of words Liberals use to affirm and enable women to murder babies for convenience and the other straw rationalizations they , like children caught in a wrong use, to defiantly stand on that wrong in the face of a parent telling them it is indeed BLACK.

Perhaps black and white does exist. I don't know, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. When people are ruled by their emotions, they have no business declaring good and evil, black and white, right and wrong. Of course the rub is that EVERYONE thinks they know something.

If one does not believe in any absolute TRUTH in life, all things can be done by men and some one will stand up and excuse it.

You are falling into the same assanine problem that most people fall into... recognizing that every situation is morally gray does NOT mean that inaction or uncertainty takes place. There ARE logical ways of dealing with every situation.

Question. Do these people have a direct line to GOD? I ask because it seems they know the future of all of these dead babies before hand are just saving society the trouble of one more bad apple....who are they to assume that one child is not worthy of life or that one mother may become the person she needs to be because of that baby.....God save you.
[edit on 11-2-2006 by Tyriffic]

Not a direct line to God, but some excellent human studies across several generations which support the idea that it is better to give the OPTION of abortion than it is to FORBID IT from women... for the sake of society AND the child. See above... do you really wish those kind of parents on children? I'd like to say some people need to be sterilized, but that's mighty fascist of me.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
"Tax and spend"???? Uh, you have your parties confused.

The Bush administration has driven our national debt up to the most obscene levels in our nation's history.

Conversely, Clinton was actually the GOP congress's best friend, fiscally speaking. In academia, Clinton was roundly viewed as anything but liberal. It did mystify me at the time (being in college in the early '90s - and despising Clinton). I see it now.

He (and the GOP congress) actually brought us the balanced budget.

Bush's policies are so destructive to the general good, the argument can be made that he/they are trying to destroy our economy.

People who believe Bush is conservative suffer from cognative dissonance. He's a fraud of the highest order. Reagan, Goldwater and even Nixon are probably spinning simultaneously in their graves over what has become of their revolution.