States with Higher Minimum Wage Boast Faster Job Growth

a reply to: criticalhit

I live in TX.. and I would challenge your assertion that if you installed solar panels that you "would still be paying the single energy provider".

In TX energy has been de-regulated. There are competing companies ... actual competition and.. TX has one of the lower energy rates in the country. Your state, apparently, subscribes to the "monopoly" form of energy supply. I am sad for you...

If you install enough solar panels to take care of your energy needs, you could disconnect yourself from the grid and not pay them diddly. That is, assuming you could afford the $40k or so that it would take to do that....

So...show me why you would still have to pay for energy when you are self-sufficient. I don't believe you can simply because that is a BS statement. If there is some provision that results in your statement being correct, then I apologize and would encourage a grass roots campaign to change that crap.

In TX if you are self-sufficient energy-wise you do not pay anyone anything for energy, other than what you need to maintain your system.

a reply to: Laykilla

Your statement that small business is dead shows a huge ignorance of the facts.

Small businesses accounted for 46% of the US GDP in the most recent year in which that data is available.

I see a lot of misinformation and bs floating around in this thread.

Well of course they do.

Well paid and well cared for populations, ie good programs and services and equalizations, with good medical, not like the US models, have higher employment, more money spent in local businesses and for every job created or obtained, 3 or more service jobs are created.

Abundance works, not scarsity.

a reply to: bbracken677

I subscribe to the bizzarro world yes, where everything is backwards and in that world Capitalism wasn't hijacked by massive corporations who control our government.

Interesting to read this thread. Good discussion on both sides. Something that showed up early was a discussion that raising the minimum wage in those states that showed growth, was only incremental and had no effect, (ask those that received the "bump" how it had no effect on them). Later in the thread a very relevant point was made that raising the minimum wage to much would push all wages up and soon out-price the ability to run a business. Not really too good with economics, but does anyone else in this thread think they could make it on 7.25*32hr(minimum FT)*4weeks=$928 before taxes?

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: criticalhit
ROFL

No...what I am talking about are the observations of having worked in the private sector for oh...40 years. Having experienced double digit inflation. Having experienced the effects of numerous fluctuations of the economy. Having experienced the balance sheet (P&L statements) and having to adjust pricing based on market rates, based on labor and material costs etc etc.

Do you really think that companies make more than 8-10% profit? Some would consider themselves lucky if they could reach that level before going out of business.

It's pretty clear that you have no experience or training and just mouthing the platitudes of the left (corporations are evil!! OMG another company is moving it's operations overseas to be able to compete internationally!!WHY???) lol You are so typical: Complain about the evil corporation and encourage higher corporate taxation and then turn right around and complain because jobs are going overseas. LOL

You do realize that corporate taxes are paid for by the consumer, right?

LOL being a task master doesn't qualify you to decide anything for anyone else, "i'm in the private sector for oh....40 years"

So what your saying is you work for the people who have made American Industry suck? That's the reason you know it should stay the same way? 40 years, you presided over the decline of the American dream, you must know what your talking about...

Look, the American ECONOMY despite what people who work for mega corps think is not or at least should not be the mainstay of America, there are 320 some odd Million Americans who pay taxes too. And NO I actually own a Company, a nice normal small company and NOBODY works for me for less than a living wage, when your talking abut 8% or 10% it is still complete BS because you can slash it to half that and still make Billions other nations like Japan put caps on the money the highest employees can make above the lowest PERIOD

No, no, no I am not some end corporations kind of guy or corporations are evil, corporations run out of control that do NOT serve the public good are the problem because they hold MILLIONS of us back from Competition, that's called MONOPOLY and this is all very simple.

If Walmart can survive in Europe where they are REQUIRED to treat people like human beings and Mc Donalds can pay 16-18 an hr plus raises and health care in Australia and Japan, that means they can do it here too and you anti minimum wage hike guys are completely full of crap.

You can over complicate it anyway you want, Americas economy is larger than these nations, there is nothing but greed price gouging and Monopoly involved here, we get paid garbage at the lowest level, we don't get health care w/o further paying for it ourselves, Our govt is owned by lobbyists and that HAS to change... You keep telling me that's the "way it is" yeah... with guys like you in charge So take your 40 years and quit because you sucked at your job.

a reply to: bbracken677

www.treehugger.com...

And honestly don't distract the main point, nobody can live on 8.00 an hr... and nobody works well for 8.00 an hr.

And realistically, California is going up to 10.00, Seattle went to 15.00 an hr, San Diego just went to 11.50 and is pushing for 15.00 in 2016

and forget the argument, That's the way the Pacific rim is doing things, that's the way the WC is doing things because that's who we do business with and.. screw Texas lol, I assure you, this is where to live, the EC, places like Detroit look like the Gaza strip in places, unlike Texas no one is awaiting the Death penalty for smoking pot either, if you want to spout the past and be in one of the most socially repressive parts of America good for you

And hate to break it to you, your 40 years... all that says to me is your OLD and out of touch, i'm looking west, my business is tech, there is plenty of money and it looks a lot more like "America" than it does in places like Texas, NY or Illinois for the average Joe and more so every day.

Progressive: making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods

Try it on texas

a reply to: FyreByrd

It's called trickle-up economics - much better than the trickle-down sort. Plus, the trickle-up economy is not a pyramid scheme so it won't just collapse and go bust.


F&S&

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: FyreByrd

Not 100%... you forget increased taxes and SS held out.

Which in turn go back into the economy through pensions and healthcare. You have to take a longer look.

When companies raise wages, the pressures to increase prices to the consumer also increase.

I spent about 15 minutes looking for my source and couldn't find it and I'm not willing to look farther on a Sunday night. Yes the prices will increase - in the neighborhood of about 17% if I recall correctly. There is a thread somewhere here about it as well.

Prices go up all the time - do you scream about increases in gasoline prices that are for purely speculative reasons, or the rise in price in food due to drought.

The premise that 100% of increase wages stimulate the economy is valid. For low and middle income people. The rich can't buy enough stuff to help the economy - see the Video on this thread.

Think about it this way: If every fast food burger place doubled their labor costs by increasing wages accordingly, what would be the effect on the cost of those burgers?

Would more people buy the higher priced burgers? Would the burger shops increase the number of people employed? What would be the effects on other low paying jobs, and then the resultant ripples as those above the minimum income workers demanded similar increases?

First off most higher wage employees will not nor expect any raises. I make a living wage most days and wouldn't expect a raise based on minimum wage - I look to others doing similar and comparable work.

You are over exagerating and drawing bad analogies.

originally posted by: criticalhit

If Walmart can survive in Europe where they are REQUIRED to treat people like human beings and Mc Donalds can pay 16-18 an hr plus raises and health care in Australia and Japan, that means they can do it here too and you anti minimum wage hike guys are completely full of crap.

You can over complicate it anyway you want, Americas economy is larger than these nations, there is nothing but greed price gouging and Monopoly involved here, we get paid garbage at the lowest level, we don't get health care w/o further paying for it ourselves, Our govt is owned by lobbyists and that HAS to change... You keep telling me that's the "way it is" yeah... with guys like you in charge So take your 40 years and quit because you sucked at your job.

Very well said and deserving of repeat ad infinitum.

originally posted by: criticalhit
a reply to: bbracken677

www.treehugger.com...

And honestly don't distract the main point, nobody can live on 8.00 an hr... and nobody works well for 8.00 an hr.

And realistically, California is going up to 10.00, Seattle went to 15.00 an hr, San Diego just went to 11.50 and is pushing for 15.00 in 2016

LA is working on $15.00 an hour too. In fact, California, the 7th largest economy in the world, has always had a minimum wage higher then the federal one and is a huge job generator. Even with the loss of Aerospace jobs, Industry (Hollywood) jobs California springs back slower then someplaces but with more stabliity. And it's amazing too all the money spent over the years trying to destroy this place.

a reply to: FyreByrd
I can't back hollywood these days, they continue to try again and again to blame their losses on pirates, instead of trying to innovate and compete. They think they can keep their BS business model going, despite the fact that they are dinosaurs. They blame their "lost revenues" on pirates, when they should be adapting to new situations. Instead of paying brad pitt 10 million for a job, they could be paying him a million. And instead of trying to make bank off a outdated medium like DVD, they could be making bank from downloads. What kind of idiot pays an actor/actress millions for one movie role? Seriously, you work for less than one year and expect to be paid more than most people make in a lifetime? While the people that really make the movies through editing and whatnot make pennies? It's a racket, and will fail sooner or later based on the fact that the people that do the most work are underpaid, and people that do the least work are overpaid.

a reply to: criticalhit

Then you, indeed, have no understanding nor education on the subject of economics.

a reply to: criticalhit

The vehemence of your reply tells me much. You say I suck at my job and yet you do not know me, do not know what job I worked nor do you know my relationship with small business.

Just based on your attitude I can tell you that you do not own your own business. In fact, I believe you make minimum wage. Your understanding of economics is...

Another point: You seem to believe that I do not believe in paying people a "living wage". Wrongo bud. I am against paying people with no skills, no experience, performing an entry level job, working part time, in a fast food restaurant more than minimum wage. I am also against jacking it up to stupid levels (such as 15/hr). I have no problem with moderate increases to keep up with cost of living. However, jobs like at McDonalds never were supposed to be careers (unless, perhaps in management). Any job that paid minimum wage was never supposed to be taken as a career job. If you are making minimum wage you should be in school or taking some kind of vocational training to improve yourself and your hire-ability.

I am involved in a number of small businesses. My best friend owns one. You do not pay minimum wage for skilled positions unless you are fine with constantly losing and then hiring employees. In most cases, this does not make for a successful business. If you hire non-skilled people to perform non-skilled work then you are much more likely to pay minimum wage or close to it. If you prefer to maintain your employees for a longer period and reduce your turnover (and you can afford to) you pay a higher rate.

Your assertion that companies are "greedy" and somehow make 35% profit is .. pretty misguided. Show me one company whose profits are 35%. If you can I will show you a company who faces zero competition, in which case, it will not last long. The 35% profit is a myth of major proportions.

You tout Australia's minimum wage as being higher than that of the US...fine. Did you also happen to notice that the cost of living in Australia is much higher than in the US? Why? Because of the higher wages. Cost of living in Australia is over 33% higher. That is rent, food, fuel... everything.

a reply to: criticalhit

"Look, the American ECONOMY despite what people who work for mega corps think is not or at least should not be the mainstay of America, there are 320 some odd Million Americans who pay taxes too."

The IRS own numbers only say 138 million filed federal tax returns in 2009 with AGI. Does anyone think it's getting better? The number of zero tax returns is 43 million. The two combined down even match your number. Source

With your example you're confusing profit margin with total profit. Since you're a business with multiple employees explain what your mod rate is and how you arrived at that, and what percentage of their salary do you end up matching? These are something we deal with everyday, real business owners know this off of the top of their head.

I'll take 40 years experience over a business model that includes a lemonade stand in front of a cardboard box and shopping cart. You live in a fantasy that only originates between your ears and has nothing to do with reality. One thing is for certain every business is looking for the same thing, that edge over their competition, if what you expound was accurate they would be beating down your door to hire you. But somehow the door sounds silent. The entire industrial economy of the United States is wrong and you are right. Pure Male Bovine Excrement.

a reply to: TKDRL

I agree with your sentiment regarding pay.

The problem is: In America "Star power" rules the day. This phenomena is supported by the population at large. We pay sports figures ridiculous amounts...

I do not support pro sports at all since the last threatened strike by baseball where the least paid player was making 1.1 million a year. I refuse to contribute towards the insanity of baseball, football, basketball. I do not buy tickets, I do not watch games on TV and I do not buy the products.

Star phenomena is what creates ridiculous levels of pay for sports stars, for CEOs, for Media stars (some of which are only famous for being famous and have zero skills (Kardashians)). Why are tickets for pro football games ridiculous? Because we pay them. Why are tickets for farm teams (college ball) so high? Because we pay them.

There is no way that you can convince me that the difference in contribution to society for a ball player is oh, a billion times higher for a baseball player than the guy that cleans the toilets in a stadium. Since when did we start rewarding convicted criminals with pro sports contracts worth millions?

Common sense left this country long ago. We are more interested in a Mel Gibson melt-down than what is going on in our economy, or what is going on with world policy.

originally posted by: criticalhit
a reply to: bbracken677

www.treehugger.com...

And honestly don't distract the main point, nobody can live on 8.00 an hr... and nobody works well for 8.00 an hr.

And realistically, California is going up to 10.00, Seattle went to 15.00 an hr, San Diego just went to 11.50 and is pushing for 15.00 in 2016

In Seattle's case the $15/hr goes into effect 01 Apr 15, and will be phased in over 3 to 7 yrs depending on the size of the business. But it's progress at least.
www.latimes.com...

There's also a federal lawsuit filed against Seattle's $15/hr increase.
www.usatoday.com...


San Diego's $11.50/hr is a gradual increase by Jan 2017. Starting at $9.75 in January 2015, $10.50 in January 2016 and $11.50 in January 2017. Again, it's progress.

And yes, California is moving towards $10/hr statewide minimum wage by Jan 2016.
www.utsandiego.com...-copy

Considering the cost of living in Cali, it's still not much, but it's a start.

a reply to: criticalhit

The problem with increasing minimum wage is that kids don't have to live on their wages. It is pocket money, or car money for the majority of teens.

On top of that, and like i said....increasing minimum wage is nothing more than taking the same pie, and just carving it into smaller pieces. You may get more pieces of pay in your minimum wage hike....but you won't get any more volume of pie.

As it regards Wal Mart...i have very little to comment. As a worker, i chose to not apply to work for them. Their reputation speaks for itself and I like to think I have more credibility than to work for people unworthy of my efforts. As well, I shop there about twice a year (since my small town has nowhere else I can buy kitchen appliances, guns, ammo, or sports equipment). When people say, "Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away" they aren't thinking about Wal Mart. But guaranteed...if we all ignored Wal Mart, they would go away.

originally posted by: xuenchen
The Link

In the 13 states that boosted their minimums at the beginning of the year, the number of jobs grew an average of 0.85 percent from January through June. The average for the other 37 states was 0.61 percent.

WOW !!!

a whole 1/4 of 1% difference !!!

Good news yes, but what was the pay rates of the jobs that "increased" ?

And what kind of "jobs" were they ?

Interesting, but we need details to come to any accurate conclusions.

This. Also correlation does not equal causation. Was their grown because there were higher wages or were there higher wages because of growth?

originally posted by: criticalhit
a reply to: bbracken677

www.treehugger.com...

And honestly don't distract the main point, nobody can live on 8.00 an hr... and nobody works well for 8.00 an hr.

And realistically, California is going up to 10.00, Seattle went to 15.00 an hr, San Diego just went to 11.50 and is pushing for 15.00 in 2016

and forget the argument, That's the way the Pacific rim is doing things, that's the way the WC is doing things because that's who we do business with and.. screw Texas lol, I assure you, this is where to live, the EC, places like Detroit look like the Gaza strip in places, unlike Texas no one is awaiting the Death penalty for smoking pot either, if you want to spout the past and be in one of the most socially repressive parts of America good for you

And hate to break it to you, your 40 years... all that says to me is your OLD and out of touch, i'm looking west, my business is tech, there is plenty of money and it looks a lot more like "America" than it does in places like Texas, NY or Illinois for the average Joe and more so every day.

Progressive: making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods

Try it on texas

Progressive: a misnomer in that it repeats the same tried and failed ideas of "social justice" that are just power grabs by politicians using useful idiots.

You mention Detroit--Detroit looks like it does because of decades of leftist "progressive" social justice policies.