States with Higher Minimum Wage Boast Faster Job Growth

originally posted by: Laykilla

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: CB328

dollar value is supply and demand. raising the minimum wage doesn't make more money. It just gives you more of what is already there. The net value of our economy isn't increasing. Its just being cut into smaller pieces. Its like me taking a potato chip and breaking it into 3 pieces, then telling you I am giving you 3 times as many chips.

Well yeah, but really -- the problem isn't that there isn't enough potato chips... the problem is too few people have hoarded bags and bags of it.

There is WAAAAY more than enough money to go around...

There is 2 mindsets, the correct one, and the greedy one.

The correct one says, if you're a business, you abandon the "get rich quick" mentality and you pay your employers more and make less.

If all employers did this, the employees would have more liquid in their pocket, and they would bring even MORE money back to you -- in which they'd make some of that back through their "allowance" offered by the employer.

The wrong mentality, is the get rich quick mentality, I'm gonna be greedy and save every penny and pay people less than they require just to make my pocket fatter.

This is the mentality that actually puts companies out of business. So, when the economy is down and you're getting LESS sales for whatever it is you're selling, the WRONG answer is to RAISE the price of your product. It's ALWAYS the wrong answer. The logic is as follows, "If I raise the price, I need to sell less to make the same amount, and since we're selling less, this is the route to follow."

This is wrong, the proper logic is as follows "Sales are down, so I will LOWER my prices, to make my product MORE affordable to prospective buyers, this means I'll have to sell more to make the same profit, but if the price is right, I will sell many more."

Greed is a disease, a sickness -- it doesn't actually translate into you getting richer, it actually translates to you closing up shop.

Again, someone who doesn't understand economics or how things actually work. The wealthy got wealthy and stay wealthy by investing. People have this rather silly myth in their heads of Scrooge McDuck sitting on a huge pile of money. That's not the case and you don't stay wealthy for long doing that. The "evil rich" return their money into the economy in the form of investment and stocks and bonds and so forth in a manner that is much more efficient than the "social justice" redistributionists could ever dream of.

Listen to the rhetoric-- an honest job is "wage slavery," "price gouging" people who don't pay enough should go to jail but people who charge too much should go to jail. Mindsets like this created this problem and will continue to make it worse.

originally posted by: criticalhit
I can't believe some of what I read...

1: Anyone not making an amount that pays for an apartment SHOULD STRIKE IMMEADATELY and shut down all commerce, because the number of people living like that could do it.

2: Number of jobs created means nothing if they are crap jobs because your state allows them to turn you into slaves, any business paying minimum wage if it's below a living wage should be boycotted by everyone

3: Inflation is not is not a necessity of higher wages, if a business owner raises prices to compensate and guarantee 35%, that is called "Price gouging" and they should be JAILED, there are actual business practices that can help earn more money like efficiency and better service and a god damned original product to make more money, not opening a "franchise" essentially doing nothing but investing money with ZERO innovation for a return guaranteed at 35%, that is not good capitalism or good business, bring it down to 20% it's still a good investment again these people need to be JAILED

4: EVERY OTHER NATION ON THE PACIFIC RIM MANAGES THIS

5: Low paid employees suck, it's bad for the economy in esoteric ways, crime, disease and health care, quality of service... all of which DESTROYS TOURISM perpetuating a cycle in which money doesn't enter America

6: There is simply no argument in regards to wealth disparity in this nation

7: Job creation by large corporations is meaningless, it's a horrible life, real job creation is ordinary people having the money to open NEW businesses creating competition and thus better service, innovation etc... These are basic rules of good capitalism any 3rd grader should know

1). Your pay should be based on what you are worth, not what you think you need. Minimum wages jobs are intended for kids without skill who still live at mom and dad's and need pocket money. If an adult is trying to live on a minimum wage job, the problem lies with them and their life choices.

2). "Living wage" is a nice leftist buzzword, but what does it actually mean? I think it means just about as much as the rather inane premise that working for a wage is a "slave."

3). LOL. Ok. So an employer should be jailed if he doesn't pay enough but also jailed if he charges too much? LOL. Such command economies did not work so well in the Soviet Union did it? If you demand labor to be paid more than it's worth, you cannot make it illegal to raise the price on the good and services to cover the increased of cost of labor without running industry out of business. I assume you've never taken econ and I don't believe that you run a business.

4). I also can see by this that you don't know much about how most of the Pacific Rim does business. Here is a hint--get a globe and look at it. Pacific Rim is a hell of a of more countries than Australia and Japan--both of which are having economic difficulties too, BTW. And if you are going to go on about "wage slavery" than you'd better stop using Japan as a shining example--their businesses are run like slave plantations at times.

5). Hmmmm actually Thailand does everything what you claim hurts tourism and their tourism industry is booming.

6). There are plenty of arguments about wealth disparity because people have disparity in skills, drive, ambition, education. Hell, talk to anyone who has a business who has minimally skilled workers and he says the biggest skill he wants in a worker is someone who bothers to show up to work on time and sober and still has trouble finding them.

7). Job creation is part of the free market capitalism--and every third grader should know that all your talk of mandatory minimum wages, "living wage," and putting people who charge more and a certain level of profit into jail is everything opposite a free market and competition. A third grader should know that less laws and less mandates and a free an open market achieves all of these things, not more government mandates.

a reply to: FyreByrd
No...that is fallacy and displays a lack of knowledge.

By your definition a large or overly large govt is good for the economy. It isn't, never has been, never will be. The govt does not produce a product and whatever services they provide are at costs that would drive businesses into bankruptcy. Anyone with a lick of economic knowledge knows that the govt (beyond basic infrastructure) is a parasite on the economy.

Your remark about costs increasing 17%...for how much of an increase in pay? In Australia the cost of living is 33% higher than the US. You can no more live on $15/hr in Australia than you can on 8 here.

The concept that an increase in wages, without a corresponding increase in productivity, will help the economy fails. Unless you think the increase will somehow come in a vacuum without a corresponding increase in costs and prices.... in which case I want to live in the bizarro economy you do.

Based on your theory, we could increase minimum wages to $60/hr and the economy will boom like gangbusters. Umm...no! lol That is pretty damned funny.

a reply to: soficrow

Your trickle up theory results in inflation and no one wins. Show me how increasing wages does not result in an increase in costs and hence prices for goods and services.

a reply to: FyreByrd

You can repeat it all you want, but that doesnt make it true. Anytime you see higher wages you also will see higher costs of living. They are intricately connected and if you cannot see the connection... well... I am not going any further with that thought.

a reply to: criticalhit

Pacific rim, eh? Minimum wage in Japan is (in US $) 8.32. Their cost of living is quite a bit higher than ours.

What about South Korea? Are their wages below ours? Vietnam? Thailand? Malaysia? China? Mexico? Nicaragua? Costa Rica? Panama? lol

lol Try it on Texas? Our economy is doing better than your state's is, and I do not know what state you live in but I can say that. Chances are our cost of living is lower as well. Try real economics buddy. Pie-in-the-sky economics doesn't work, just ask Detroit.

If by looking west you are talking about California...I was born there: San Bernardino. You take your tech business there and then after a year ask yourself why? Businesses are leaving California, in case you hadn't noticed. Bring it to Texas and you will find that (once you get away from your closed minded bigoted view) Texas is actually a great place to bring a business or even start one. Few states are better. But hey! Go for it! Go California lol

I dare ya.

a reply to: NavyDoc

LOL I missed his "death penalty for smoking pot" remark. If ignorance is bliss, then he is one danged happy guy.

That just shows how incredibly ignorant he is. I think that 4 of the top 10 fastest growing cities in America (economic wise) are in Texas. Texas has some of the lowest energy costs in the country. Texas has (even with bukku immigrants) one of the best employment rates in the country, but hey! What does Texas know about business. They cant even run a deficit in state spending to match their size. Unlike other states that run deficits way out of proportion to their size and population levels...you know: those so-called "progressive" states that are going bankrupt.

Hi first post ever after 6 years of only reading.

Let's say there's no conspiracy variable (nwo, evil fed reserve, etc) Wouldn't it make more sense to cut taxes ? Very simply put....

1. Cut taxes for small and medium corporations. Cut laborers taxes (state, fed income taxes)

2. That'll increase net wages for business and laborers win win.

3. Make up losses by increasing taxes on global corporations doing business within the USA. Or cut superfluous spending or both to make up for the immediate losses and watch spending and savings increase from having more money?

4. Increase interest rates to take out money supply in the economy gradually increasing the value of each dollar.

Simply put. It's a lot more intricate but it's a lot more sound way to increase wages for the common man than increasing minimum wages.

Increasing minimum wages only increases the amount of money the government can tax. Since everything else will rise with rising costs for business owners. The rising costs means bigger profits and even more taken from them by taxes. The only one who wins with increased minimum wages is the politicians

a reply to: FyreByrd

Do they boast about their higher cost of living too!

a reply to: FyreByrd


Your talking 2/10ths of 1% here bro, hardly a grand slam that higher wages = better economy. Not to say I am not all for somewhat higher wages, but as much as I hate it, minimum wage wasn't meant to live off of, I don't know why alot of people can't understand that.

a reply to: chuck258

The problem is there is no (as in none) cause and effect relationship between higher wages (without an increase in productivity) and an improved economy.

There is a demonstrable, provable and historical connection between rapid increase in wages and inflation. Inflation which never results in a gain in buying power for the consumer.

I am not advocating keeping minimum wage as it is...there has not been a cost of living increase with minimum wage in quite some time. I am arguing against significant changes to the minimum wage which will ripple up the ladder resulting in runaway inflation. Significant changes which people claim will "help" the economy. Sure it will... just like a bullet to the foot will help a person walk better.

To the person who remarked about the Pacific Rim countries doing it I have but one question:

What/who is the economic juggernaut of the area? China? Yeppers.... I would like to point out their minimum wage is a buck nineteen. $1.19/hour...China...minimum wage. So..higher wages = better economy? okie dokie.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: xuenchen
The Link

In the 13 states that boosted their minimums at the beginning of the year, the number of jobs grew an average of 0.85 percent from January through June. The average for the other 37 states was 0.61 percent.

WOW !!!

a whole 1/4 of 1% difference !!!

Good news yes, but what was the pay rates of the jobs that "increased" ?

And what kind of "jobs" were they ?

Interesting, but we need details to come to any accurate conclusions.

This. Also correlation does not equal causation. Was their grown because there were higher wages or were there higher wages because of growth?

However correlation does, in fact, point to a linkage between the correlates. One goes up and so does the other and vice versa. It doesn't address causation at all as you point out.

We don't know why the correlation exists (could be that aliens like those states better for all we know) just that it does. And that is enough to draw conclusions about the effects of raising the minimum wage.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: xuenchen
The Link

In the 13 states that boosted their minimums at the beginning of the year, the number of jobs grew an average of 0.85 percent from January through June. The average for the other 37 states was 0.61 percent.

WOW !!!

a whole 1/4 of 1% difference !!!

Good news yes, but what was the pay rates of the jobs that "increased" ?

And what kind of "jobs" were they ?

Interesting, but we need details to come to any accurate conclusions.

This. Also correlation does not equal causation. Was their grown because there were higher wages or were there higher wages because of growth?

However correlation does, in fact, point to a linkage between the correlates. One goes up and so does the other and vice versa. It doesn't address causation at all as you point out.

We don't know why the correlation exists (could be that aliens like those states better for all we know) just that it does. And that is enough to draw conclusions about the effects of raising the minimum wage.

But it doesn't. You said yourself. "WE don't know why the correlation exists." You don't say that then follow with the insistence that we an draw conclusions, because we cannot. More average wages may be paid because the economy is better, there is job growth, and the competition for labor necessitates a higher minimum wage. One cannot state that the higher minimum wage caused an increase in in growth. In fact one cannot say that the growth would have been higher if there wasn't a minimum wage and that the high minimum wage stunted a growth that could have been higher, which is also a possible scenario. You cannot draw such conclusions based on the given data.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Not when there are so many other factors in play. It would be a simple exercise if wages were the only factor to consider, but they are not.

By your definition Australia should have a robust economy ($16.33/hr) and China should be hurting badly with it's 1.19/hour.

Correlation / causation much?

Besides, Texas has a more robust economy than the states you listed that had increased their minimum wage. What conclusion can you draw from that?

a reply to: bbracken677

The trickle down economy is a pyramid scheme - and it always fails. As it is doing as we speak. ...The rising prices associated with higher wages has to do with greed at the top of the pyramid.

a reply to: soficrow

First off...I have never discussed trickle down economics, at least not in this thread.

Secondly...you are saying that the only reason costs go up when wages do is because of greed at the top?

Please explain that.

You do understand a P&L sheet, right? You do understand that one's costs are such things as labor, material, energy, and any associated costs of doing business all rolled up together (also includes taxes, advertising etc).

If your household were a business, and you were the commodity (so to speak) then your costs (housing, electricity, gas, transportation etc) together would be your costs. If you have a maid to clean your house, that would be labor costs. What you make in income from your job would be your gross income. Right? And dont forget your taxes...

Please explain your statement assuming you understand the concept of costs.

If all y'all really knew what you were talking about, we would not have depressions, recessions, 08Crashes, and the government (the taxpayer) always having to save your butts.

I see no one even attempted to touch the facts I posted that prove most of these high minimum wage states are only making more jobs because their economy is slower to recover.

a reply to: MOMof3

Not necessarily...there are, at times, things that happen that are outside your control.

I do hear what you are saying... it seems that in our bubble economy that we should be able to see the bubbles, and sometimes do, but by then it's too late to stop the effects when they collapse.

The Fed tries, somewhat, to control it ... smoothing it out somewhat by trying to maintain a growth rate that is less than 4% (not sure exactly why...I have heard some explanations but I dont believe them or either I dont understand them). But there is only so much the govt can do.

The fact is that, beyond basic infrastructure, there is little the govt can do to help the economy. They can definitely harm it, and people tend to confuse helping with harming it less.

Taxation is a harm (beyond providing basic infrastructure) and our politicians just do not seem to get it. The higher the taxation the more that is taken from the private sector which inhibits growth. This is why increasing taxes during a recession is stupid... but our govt does not see it that way.

Oh...and btw...I did see the '08 crash coming, and I suspect the govt did too. I first became aware of the debt bubble back in '99. It didnt take a genius to figure that one out... Personal debt had reached all time highs and it was just a matter of time before it all came crashing down. I thought it would be much worse, in all honesty.

Look back at the historical levels of personal debt...you will see that by the 21st century it looked really...bad!