The Trouble with Libertarians

a reply to: ketsuko

There is a difference between being poor and not being able to take care of yourself. I grew up poor and lived very dirt poor for about half a decade after college. Never were we unable to basically support ourselves even though we were both on minimum wage. Was it easy? No. Was it comfortable? No. But we were making it. Now, had I gotten pregnant, there would have been a full array of government assistance for us, and it would have gotten a whole. lot. easier. But then, when my husband did get his break, it would have been harder to make that leap. We would have lost by going to his full-time corporate job off government assistance.

Do you understand that?

We would have been better off staying on government assistance than taking my husband's entry level corporate job.

Of course I understand what you're saying but you're ignoring the fact that labor force participation is mostly a function of the demand for labor, not the incentive to work.

That's first and foremost. Labor force participation cannot exceed labor demand, that's an impossibility. You're also not addressing the number of people who are working but underemployed for a host of reasons (including decreased labor demand in a particular profession and/or locale) or the changes to eligibility determination in the 90's.

a reply to: poncho1982

Tea Party is racist

a reply to: fripw

Thank you for proving my point.

Because, you know, a group of different people from all walks of life, and yes even Black and Hispanic people, MUST be ALL racist.

Way to generalize.

Way to openly discriminate.

Bravo

a reply to: theantediluvian

Well, now you're getting into wider problems. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and this is another bone I have with most progressive policy. It gets passed and treated as if it will happen in a vacuum, as if there will be no ripple effects or dominos that fall in reaction to it. Cause and effect: A causes B, yes, but then B will inevitably cause C, D and E. In turn, those will go on to cause F, G, H, I and maybe J, K and L, too.

Pretty soon you have a big mess, and instead of recognizing what the real cause was: A. Everyone thinks we need to pass a new law to fix D, G, H and K.

Thomas Sowell calls this stage 1 thinking, and it's a general failing of society and government.

In order to fix labor participation, you have to look at what causes jobs to not be created. And often, you come back to the same thing: government policy. And often, it's not even government policies that were intended to have anything to do with labor participation.

How many who will be going on public assistance used to be coal miners?

Well, no one intended to directly affect them, but when the EPA puts coal fired plants out of business, there is no demand for coal and thus no need for coal miners. And for those towns that depend on the mines, every business is adversely affected, small and large. As those towns die, the state is affected because of the decline in its revenue and the increase in its need to support those who go on assistance because they lost their jobs.

Not mention the increased burden on everyone caused by the increase in energy prices. Those increased prices cause more people to need assistance everywhere as bills go up. Then there is the ripple effect throughout the economy as every other business has more expenses related to energy. This can cause there to be less jobs as they have to adjust to compensate for higher costs of doing business. Some of them may go out of business altogether leaving many more out of work. And a lot of them will have to raise prices causing an increased burden across the board as everyone else must pay those costs in addition to their higher energy bills. This can in turn cause even more people to tip over into having to go onto government assistance.

a reply to: loam Ahhh, I see. Woman /Latino or the other way around. Should suit the zombies. That's if your economy doesn't implode prior. Of course, that mucks up the rest of the world. Keeps me on the Libertarin meme...

originally posted by: poncho1982
What I find funny is, here you have Libertarians posting exactly what they believe in, and you have these people screaming "NO YOU DON'T! THIS IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN!" paraphrasing of course, but you get the idea.

SMH

This is exactly what the Tea Partiers had to deal with being called racist by total strangers who do not know them at all.

Good Point.

The hysterical reactions that Progressives display when any threat to the collective at all comes forward.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: poncho1982

Tea Party is racist

Yep, I'm so racist I'm married to a Native American.

a reply to: CB328

originally posted by: CB328
The data chart mostly cofirms my OP,

Huh????

originally posted by: CB328
just the age is spread out a bit more than I thought, though I was talking about people who have recently turned libertarian, which I believe I was correct about being mostly young.

But that's just a guess, isn't it?

originally posted by: CB328
Still, 68% don't have kids and about the same percent are male, which means that libertarians may not have a solid understanding of the needs of women and children in society. That bias, I believe, makes them unsuited to lead the country.

So by your logic, the Solid Liberals (77%), the Hard-Pressed Democrats (71%), and the New Coalition Democrats (68%) who are not parents should equally be discounted where understanding children is concerned? Of course, we need to also throw in the Staunch Conservatives (70%) and might as well add the Bystanders too who are only two percentage points behind the Libertarians at 66%.

Do you honestly think you said something meaningful?

a reply to: Krazysh0t


"No we don't. Most Libertarians are realists and understand that misfortune happens to everyone including ourselves, but we want the choice to take care of our problems ourselves. "

Because you have the means to take care of the problems yourselves. Poor people just get to die.


Your second point:
Look up fascism, you obviously don't know what it means.

My point was that there is no fix for the system, only that when things get bad enough people will address the real problems, not the contrived selfish issues believed by libertarians.
And that libertarianism is the short cut to ruin.

I don't really have anymore time for this. Your cause is a joke and I would be amazed even with stupidity of our citizens that it will ever catch on. Hopefully though you will take the GOP with you in your fall.

a reply to: poncho1982 Hang on mate. Don't call others racist. My wife is Chinese and my son is what he decides. STEADY ON.

a reply to: ketsuko

originally posted by: ketsuko
Yep, I'm so racist I'm married to a Native American.

Tragically, you just don't realize you're a racist.

originally posted by: loam
a reply to: ketsuko

originally posted by: ketsuko
Yep, I'm so racist I'm married to a Native American.

Tragically, you just don't realize you're a racist.

I know; I know. Neither does my husband.

Does that make him self-loathing?

a reply to: ketsuko I keep readibg this post over.............

SAD

a reply to: ozwest

Are you allright?

a reply to: ketsuko

In order to fix labor participation, you have to look at what causes jobs to not be created. And often, you come back to the same thing: government policy. And often, it's not even government policies that were intended to have anything to do with labor participation.

How many who will be going on public assistance used to be coal miners?

Is that really the case? Or is it actually that we have a huge trade deficit with China, Mexico, etc, coupled with job loss to automaton? Let's look at something often talked about (for a good reason), manufacturing:



The average hourly compensation for a worker in China was about $1.75 in 2009, I'd have to dig a little to get reliable figures for current figures but that one comes from the BLS.

Freight charges for a 48,000 lb load from China to California are only about twice what it costs to ship from Alabama to California (see here).

I'd love to discuss this in further detail but I have to take off for a bit. Costs associated with regulation are a much smaller part of the equation than it's often made out to be.

a reply to: theantediluvian

I'd need to hook you up with my husband. He actually works in a section of industry that deals with regulation directly.
My husband just did this:



Just transporting samples can cost into the thousands of dollars one-way, and their documentation center which produces NOTHING has increased in population by a magnitude of six thanks to regs and has expanded twice. You can argue they make jobs, but they're simply make work jobs that have nothing to do with manufacturing anything. They are cost of doing business, administrative jobs. Empty jobs. When everyone gets mad about jobs not being about making things, these are the ones they look at as wasteful jobs.

And it says something that despite having product that is a global leader and top seller, the regulatory area is the biggest area of expansion in the company. Their production has expanded 33% as opposed to a 600% expansion in reg affairs and quality. That expansion represents a lot of cost both in material and in manpower, but let's not tell ourselves the lie that regulatory costs aren't as bad as they're made out to be because that type of regulatory burden is carrying over into all types of industry.

Money that could be used to research, develop and produce new product that could be exported to other countries is being spent instead in placating the US government and the reg agencies of every other country my husband's company sells to. That impacts the trade balance and deficit.

a reply to: ozwest

A bit sleepy. Thanks for caring.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: poncho1982

Tea Party is racist

Replying to fripw, I don't understand, how I could be a Racist, I'm 100 % Dakota Sioux married to a 100 % Chinese from Harbin China.
I can Guarantee you, we're not Racist, Old and fixed in our ways, but not Racist, We have a Very Nice daughter who you could say is a Half Breed, she's a 24 year old Libertarian / Tea Party Gal, Gun Nut like Mom and Dad.
Tea Party / Libertarian's make better neighbor's, we mind our own business.
Try reading:
Have you seen
and:
10 reasons
Or you don't have to, it's up to you, no pressure.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Right up my alley. Would you like to know how you are totally reamed? I do busiess rhere because I can't in Aaustralia anymore. Supply/Demand. If you want to be altruistic, purchase my more locally produced products. Sounds nice, but doesn't keep me in tne black.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Have you ever been to China? Cambodia? Malaysia? Viet Nam? That's where I do business.