The Trouble with Libertarians

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: poncho1982

Tea Party is racist

Dear, dear you are falling for an old tired cliche.

Calling people who disagree with you racist. How early 2000's.

Why don't you try looking at the stand on issues instead of doing the fallback of crying racist whenever one is frustrated and can't come up with a cogent argument.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: fripw
And what you call "FOX propaganda" is the best research I've been able to dig up in preparation for what we'll be facing if my husband's job drops us on the exchange. It is based off the numbers for what insurance on the exchange costs on average in our state. We are looking at about $2-300/person which is about $6-900/month making it a second mortgage.

There are key words that people tend to throw around

when they can't come up with an intelligent response.

1. You are racist

2. You are homophobic

3. You are sexist

4. You must watch FOX news

5. You listen to Rush too much

6. You fall for everything (name any conservative commentator or any conservative website) has to say

Don't let it get to you.

These are the chants of the weak of mind.

Fall backs when they can not come up with a reasoned and well though out response to issues.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I know nothing about your posts, but your condescendig attitude is disturbing

a reply to: CB328

but their ideals are not based on a full understanding of the world, or politics, because they don't understand other segments of society and their needs

You could say that about nearly every 20-30 something adult in this country.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

5. You listen to Rush too much

a reply to: NthOther

If I listen to both does make me "fair and balanced?"

a reply to: ketsuko

Is your husband in pharmaceuticals? There are certainly highly regulated industries and the regulations have varying degrees of utility. Without getting into a lot of detail, even though I'm in IT, my job exposes me to a lot of regulatory compliance for food manufacture, storage and distribution. We spend a lot more on our annual industry certifications (required by many customers) than we do for compliance with government regulations (not including tax related).

There's unquestionably a substantial cost for regulatory compliance, there's inefficiencies and they can have unintended consequences, but there are many that are absolutely necessary. The level of regulation is not uniform across all industries either, obviously. Take it for what it's worth, but the World Bank ranks the US #4 (of of 198) for ease of doing business.

Economies are ranked on their ease of doing business, from 1 – 189. A high ranking on the ease of doing business index means the regulatory environment is more conducive to the starting and operation of a local firm. This index averages the country's percentile rankings on 10 topics, made up of a variety of indicators, giving equal weight to each topic. The rankings for all economies are benchmarked to June 2013.

There's also a lot of extra regulation that comes into play when importing from foreign countries and let's not forget that the cost of anything imported includes the cost of compliance regulation in the country of origin. In my opinion, the real questions are:

- How many of these regulations do we actually want to do away with?
- How much of a disadvantage (if any) do regulations put us at in relation to other countries?

I'm all for fixing things that don't work but I'm not convinced the hype around deregulation is justified.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Is that anything like:

1. You want to destroy America!
2. You're a communist!
3. You hate Christians!
4. Race pimp!
5. Cloward-Piven!
6. You believe everything the MSM says!

etc etc etc

Do you imagine that conservatives don't ridicule and insult the left? Listening to Rush is by far the worst thing on that list by the way.

a reply to: theantediluvian

I don't use any of those attacks. I just see the logical failings of the progressive movement. It's designed to make a bunch of people pissed off to appease the needs of another group. It isn't freedom. It's oppression disguised as "progress".

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: grandmakdw

Is that anything like:

1. You want to destroy America!
2. You're a communist!
3. You hate Christians!
4. Race pimp!
5. Cloward-Piven!
6. You believe everything the MSM says!

etc etc etc

Do you imagine that conservatives don't ridicule and insult the left? Listening to Rush is by far the worst thing on that list by the way.

It is exactly like that!

And by the way, you fell into the lazy way too with your last line.

Goes both ways for sure.

a reply to: grandmakdw

They're only chants of a weak mind if their not true
Also, do you even know the purpose of Obama Care? By the way you quote policy prices tells me you don't.

FOX will twist your mind to believe anything they want to achieve their owners agenda.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

a reply to: Krazysh0t
You are obviously clueless about what the progressive movement is about. You derive your judgement based on listening to
corporate propaganda, the enemies of the progressive movement. "Oppression disguised as Progress" !!!!!!!! WOW
What a mind f^$k.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: grandmakdw

They're only chants of a weak mind if their not true
Also, do you even know the purpose of Obama Care? By the way you quote policy prices tells me you don't.

FOX will twist your mind to believe anything they want to achieve their owners agenda.

They are chants of a weak mind because you can not read another's mind or heart, and these chants are just making blind assumptions. Assumptions that frequently turn out not to be true.

Also, the assumptions are frequently bigoted remarks, and from both sides, prejudiced against those who think differently from oneself, not rational thinking at all, and certainly not the way to change anyone's mind and "educate" them.

Communication is 90% nonverbal, and in a forum like this you are cut off from 90% of what a person is really trying to say, you are definitely cut off from 90% of the true meaning.

And therefore, making assumptions about where they "got" an idea or thought is normally wrong in this forum I have found.

I've apologized more than once when I made an assumption about a post, that turned out the person was trying to be sarcastic and actually meant the opposite of what they posted. So I have been guilty of misreading a persons intent and being snippy back, not a good tactic in this forum,

unless your only motive is to try and "force" others to think your way rather than use reason to help them understand "your way".


You make think that whatever tired old cliche you choose to use is true, but more than half, well more than half of the time you will be wrong. Sorry.

Obamacare? I never spoke of any prices in this thread, don't recall ever doing it. Oh well.

Live and let live, part of the Libertarian social philosophy, don't tell others how to live, what they "must" buy, what they "must" believe, what they must or must not consume, what they should think,
who they should or should not listen to or read or watch.

Blind name calling accomplishes nothing and only polarizes and angers, and completely eschews rational discourse.

The Libertarian philosophy allows for people to have rational discourse, disagree,

and rather than blindly name call and use tired old cliche's;

engage in respectful give and take of ideas, during which you just might change minds.


Have to admit it is hard to do when your emotions get in the way of your brain. Had it happen to me a few times, I admit, but I try not to.

It isn't freedom. It's oppression disguised as "progress".

Last I checked there are a lot of people in this country with a lot of freedom. The ones who don't have freedom are the ones oppressed by business, who you don't want to regulate.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Let's put it this way - when you are dealing with as many as six different domestic regulatory agencies verifying the same things to all of them in triplicate because they can't be bothered to cross communicate, there is a problem. All you are doing is justifying the jobs of six different sets of petty bureaucrats who are all required to file the same identical sets of paperwork.

If the system were streamlined it would save everyone time and money, but then it would cut down on the federal jobs program called the bureaucracy.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: Krazysh0t
You are obviously clueless about what the progressive movement is about. You derive your judgement based on listening to
corporate propaganda, the enemies of the progressive movement. "Oppression disguised as Progress" !!!!!!!! WOW
What a mind f^$k.

Well instead of the derisive attitude, why don't you educate me? I've taken the time to explain how you are wrong about what you believe with Libertarian philosophy (despite you telling me I'm wrong), so how about you do the same for me if it is SOOO great? Tell me why I should be ok with the government having more and more control over my freedoms and telling me what to think and say. Last I checked, that was called fascism, but I'm sure you can enlighten me and explain how there is a difference.

It IS oppression disguised as progress. The government forces people to do things that they don't want to do (oppression) and tells everyone that it is beneficial for us all (progress). Oh yes, some people benefit, the illegals in the illegal immigration front. The dirt poor with the ACA. But all these people who benefit are doing so at the expense of other people. Many times these people didn't earn the benefits and are getting them off of the backs of people who earned their stuff. That is called oppression. I know you don't see it as such because progressives wave away the fact that they oppress the middle-class white demographic by making it sound like they are racist if they don't agree to having all their money taken away (also called bullying). And since it IS oppressing this demographic, the progressive movement isn't going to have the effect that the Progressives want it to have. It is just going to cause backlash, which it is already doing. The country is more racially divided than ever and its thanks to progressives yelling racism for even the slightest provocation.

It's funny because part of the progressive movement is to end bullying, but they can't even see that what they do with the race card is the same thing. People lose their careers over ONE racial gaff. And that gaff doesn't even have to be current, they've lost careers for things said YEARS ago. That is called bullying and is a form of oppression. I don't care what you tell me, but it's true and it is at the core of the progressive movement.

Even your attitude with talking to me is indicative of the progressive mindset. I've been trying to have a civil debate with you, but you insist on using hyperbole and a derisive attitude with everything you say. Like the mere mention of my beliefs just affronts your senses or something. You haven't given me any evidence why my views are wrong or your views are superior, but your rhetoric and hyperbole is off the chain. I might as well be talking to a 10 year old.

originally posted by: CB328

It isn't freedom. It's oppression disguised as "progress".

Last I checked there are a lot of people in this country with a lot of freedom. The ones who don't have freedom are the ones oppressed by business, who you don't want to regulate.

Freedom? Is that like the Progressives' ever march towards taking away our 2nd amendment rights? Or having "free speech zones"? Or telling us when we are allowed to organize and protest? NSA spying on everything we do electronically? How does George Zimmerman feel after being acquitted and having the PRESIDENT and ATTORNEY GENERAL comb the books looking for some loophole to throw him back in jail? The freedoms we do still have appear to be there DESPITE the progressives' attempts.

a reply to: poncho1982

Yeah they do it to VETS all the time. I wonder why they talk to other people when they have already finished to conversation?

a reply to: CB328

Nice piece of condescending, partisan drivel. Before you even got started you had tarred and feathered Libertarians, based on your own pure conjecture that Libertarians are mostly Republicans.

Your own obscured perception and 2-party mentality immediately disable you from providing a meaningful analysis of anything political.

From the day I was 18 and had the right to vote, I cringed at the 2-party nonsense. I was pro-choice, yet pro-gun, socially liberal in many regards, yet financially conservative. I believed in strong borders, strong military, yet I'm non-interventionist. I support prayer in schools, yet I'm not religious at all.

If pressed to label myself when I was younger I would have to call myself a liberal. But I always stressed that to be Liberal, meant only that I believed in LIBERTY, and the freedom to do as you wish with you own life and body so long as it doesn't affect others.

So... sorry for not fitting into your cookie cutter, but here's a newsflash: ALMOST NO ONE DOES.