The Trouble with Libertarians

a reply to: xuenchen

HEY GUYS is COMBAT hardship?
How many liberals have gone to war anyway?
IS that where they got scared of GUNS?

if true Libertarians had been in elected positions, the U.S. wouldn't be in the predicaments they're in

No, we'd be in all new ones.

No politicians are willing to do what needs to be done anyways. Unless we stop our society's obsession with growth at all costs, our country will be destroyed. It's only a matter of time.

a reply to: CB328

SO what have you heard about that study that says living in large cities induces Psychosis?

I haven't heard that, but we can't employee 300 million people yet everyone thinks it's great that our country is predicted to grow to 400 million in 40 years while we're having water shortages and lost cropland equal in size to Indiana in just 25 years.

a reply to: CB328

IMPINGING on the IMMIGRATION issue,there.
CROP land ? Veritcal FARMING. TOP soils's screwed. DUH.

if true Libertarians had been in elected positions, the U.S. wouldn't be in the predicaments they're in

originally posted by: CB328
No, we'd be in all new ones.

No politicians are willing to do what needs to be done anyways. Unless we stop our society's obsession with growth at all costs, our country will be destroyed. It's only a matter of time.

Or be in minimal and controllable ones.

The country is being systematically destroyed by the Progressive mindset.

That mindset is worldwide and very dangerous to all society. All the Progressive systems have failed. There are no successes listed.

You may be a victim of the MSM and could be beyond hope.

Most unfortunate.

a reply to: xuenchen

NO ! I won't leave a man behind!

The country is being systematically destroyed by the Progressive mindset.

You'll have to prove that, it seems to be being destroyed by business to me, and their lackeys in both parties.

That mindset is worldwide and very dangerous to all society. All the Progressive systems have failed. There are no successes listed.

Is that a joke? Are you seriously claiming that all the successful non-conservative countries are failures? Have you ever even visited another country? Ignorant, extremist rants like this make me want to puke. Yes, ultra liberalism is bad, just like extreme conservatism is bad. Extremists are bad regardless of which extreme they're on.

I'm actually a moderate (on the liberal side) or would be in a sane society. But in today's Taliban America normal things like being sexually active, having an education or caring about the environment are considered extreme left and evil.

My reaction to this thread is:

- Despite the valid objections that the OP states opinions without backing of facts (no statistics to back up claims about Libertarian populations and their lifestyle)

It still attempts to take a rational look at what might be their personal bias to consider- I think that in every political group, you will get people thinking they are being supremely objective, when in fact, there is bias blindspots due to their own experiences.

I find that to be a more humanistic and rational approach then the threads which begin with a sort of slur about groups, without any attempt to understand where they might be coming from! I am really fed up with those. That is not constructive if we wish to find solutions, or have any kind of discussion between opposing positions.


- The comment about many people not being self disciplined or intelligent enough to save up responsibly... That is a assertion that I realize could be read as a thoughtless slur- especially by americans. We like to speak as if we all have the same capabilities, or that individual merit can be an antidote to the temptation of laziness (the only real obstacle to success).

My own mind has changed a bit on that. I think that as individuals, we have grown up in a culture which encourages us to believe in ourselves and our capabilities- that's great. On the other hand, gone too far, I think it results in many being unrealistic about their capabilities. I noticed the contrast when I left the US and was taken aback to hear foreigners that will speak of themselves in very down to earth terms and include easily that they do not have a very high IQ, or self discipline!

They simply admit it, and make decisions in accordance- like it is quite common here to go to a dietician to get daily guidance in trying to lose weight, or to enlist help of professional or friends on regular basis to achieve all sorts of things. This contrasted greatly with my own habit of doing it myself, without aid. To receive aid and support is almost taboo in our culture. But that doesn't seem to work in increasing the IQ's or the success rates of self disciplinary efforts. Instead people fail, so they rationalize instead (I am fat because I think curves are more esthetically pleasing, not because I haven't the force of will to lose it. for example).

Perhaps it is the sheer size of the country, which allows for larger spacing between people, but there is a popular view that "I am not affected by the people who remain poor or uneducated or unhealthy because of their own choices and faults."

But that doesn't seem (to me) to be a realistic view. We ARE affected by populations of that sort- especially when it coms to mental illness that grows amongst such populations. In many ways- violent crime for example.

Your nation is made of individuals. A body that has a few rotting toes might seem to have the rest of the body uneffected for a while, but the infection can and will eventually poison the entire body....

I am not responding to the entire post and perhaps not the most important parts, in others' view, but these were the first reactions and focus points I had when I read the OP.

a reply to: CB328

Is that a joke? Are you seriously claiming that all the successful non-conservative countries are failures?

No joke.

All the countries that are BIS member central banks are in deep debt cycles.

The NWO banking system is Progressive and use many Marx principals.

Again, don't fall for the MSM malarkey.

The propaganda experts are in control.

Most of the wars and conflicts worldwide are taking place in non-BIS countries and territories.

a reply to: xuenchen

Is drugs?
VIDEO GAMES?
Maybe CELL PHONES?
HE Acts LIKE it's ALL true doesn't he?

originally posted by: CB328

It's strange that no one addressed my core issue, which was that the new masses of young libertarians have a flawed worldview due to being insulated from many of the hardships of life.

Simply because of their youth, or because of our relative civil peace (when "peace officers" aren't around) and technological conveniences?

If the latter, then everyone's worldview is skewed by the same mechanism. This negates any claim of objective superiority.

Why should we trust your philosophy any more than the libertarians'?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: theantediluvian

Define "means tested." I think your definition is broken. I see plenty of able-bodied people who live off our tax dollars with no plan beyond their next government paycheck.

They have the means to support themselves but government assistance enables them to not do so.

There is a difference between won't support yourself and truly can't support yourself, and our system doesn't have that line.

Willing and able-bodied people are still going to be poor as long as they have no job and therefore lacking the means to provide for themselves. The only reason that you're not painfully aware of that line is because of the success of these programs. What do you imagine will happen? Max exodus to the federal controlled lands to take up subsistence farming? Reservations for the poor?

One of the bigger problems with libertarians, in my opinion, is a lack of pragmatism.

originally posted by: CB328

You take 16% of people's money, then give that same amount back 50 years later at 0% interest. That isn't helping anyone

It helps everyone in the country, as I explained in my opening post if you would have read it.

It's strange that no one addressed my core issue, which was that the new masses of young libertarians have a flawed worldview due to being insulated from many of the hardships of life. Don't tell me that all libertarians are old when we saw huge crowds or college kids and people in their 20's and 30's at Ron Paul events. I think the older "real" libertarians are not very organized or influential in politics.

Why?

With all the coruption and incompetence in main stream politicians both democrat and republican and you ask why?

They are doing it as they have lost trust in the goverment!

Only a blind brain washed party hardliner cant see that!

a reply to: xuenchen

You have no idea what the progressive mindset is. You only know what your propaganda source has told you.

a reply to: theantediluvian

There is a difference between being poor and not being able to take care of yourself. I grew up poor and lived very dirt poor for about half a decade after college. Never were we unable to basically support ourselves even though we were both on minimum wage. Was it easy? No. Was it comfortable? No. But we were making it. Now, had I gotten pregnant, there would have been a full array of government assistance for us, and it would have gotten a whole. lot. easier. But then, when my husband did get his break, it would have been harder to make that leap. We would have lost by going to his full-time corporate job off government assistance.

Do you understand that?

We would have been better off staying on government assistance than taking my husband's entry level corporate job.

Of course, since we were too responsible to get pregnant just for government money, we stayed on marginal money and when the break came, we took it, and he is now an extremely successful man.

But do you understand how close we came to being nothing? That's the trap so-called means-tested government assistance gets people into.

originally posted by: CB328

You take 16% of people's money, then give that same amount back 50 years later at 0% interest. That isn't helping anyone

It's strange that no one addressed my core issue, which was that the new masses of young libertarians have a flawed worldview due to being insulated from many of the hardships of life. Don't tell me that all libertarians are old when we saw huge crowds or college kids and people in their 20's and 30's at Ron Paul events. I think the older "real" libertarians are not very organized or influential in politics.

I still don't understand that you think no one has addressed this. I did.

And I'll tell you that I become what I am now - libertarian when it comes to government in most cases - precisely because of the hardships I endured when I was in my 20s and 30s and the realization that the only way anything you talk about as being "for the good of everyone" would ever help me was if I went all-in and surrendered myself entirely to it.

I'm an independent person, and the one time I sought some help from my government, I was told there was no hand-up. There were only hand-outs and those only if I were to be irresponsible enough to get pregnant so that I could add another mouth to the welfare roles. How irresponsible is that?

There is no good for someone who wants to make it on their own. We give and give and give and give and give ... they don't even send snowplows to my streets in the winter here so my neighborhood organizes a group of neighbors to take care of digging us all out so we can continue working so they can take and take and take and take from us for services we barely even know exist.

Every time it comes up that they want to cut a program another group comes out of the woodwork screaming that we can't because this or that group depends on it and can't live without it, so they take and take and take and take and take and take and I never see any benefit from it ever.

So how does any of this benefit me? I lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and while I can't hardly feed my own kid healthy food or put clothes on his back or afford a car, even used, I see people using EBTs who are dressed in name brands and loading up snazzy, new Escalades in the parking lots.

Where am I being helped?

Then I watch the so-called public servants making fun of me on YouTube.

a reply to: gladtobehere

You are wrong. Social security is not bankrupt and is in good shape to run for decades to come. Your info is messed up.

a reply to: ketsuko

If your a true libertarian you should be happy with you status. It is your lot in life. You don't have what it takes and shouldn't expect any help.

But, why from your post do you sound hurt by the whole thing. You didn't get help when you needed it so you turn to an ideology based on not giving help to those who need it. If you're poor it's not like you're paying any taxes anyway.

a reply to: ketsuko

The trap is not having enough decent paying jobs and not government assistance programs.