The Trouble with Libertarians

Modern libertarians are simply the political base of corporate greed.

Every single idea they have for free market capitalism is the dismantling of structures in this country that keep monopolies from forming.

Real free market capitalism realizes that competition is the engine that makes an economy grow, without healthy competition, innovation becomes stagnation, industry suffers, pay suffers, working conditions suffer.

And that's what the leaders of the modern libertarian movement want. They want the robber baron to return, because to them, they embody the ideal of the best humanity has to offer. Self made emperors who spit on the very people who generate their wealth.

There is no perfect solution, but I am 55 and have lived half my life in America and the other half in Australia. There are gripes wherever you go, but it seems easier to have a voice in Australia. Not because one system is better than the other, but the size of the population in Australia dictates that our representatives pay more attention. The founding fathers of America understood that communities should make their own decisions. Shrink the size of the Federal Gov't and restore state and local gov't. This seems the fastest way to resore representative gov't and ensure capital is allocated correctly. Let the people decide which community suits their needs.

a reply to: fripw

No, the hurt is that when you start going up there are more and more roadblocks thrown in your way by people like yourself who tell people like me that voting against said roadblocks is "voting against our own best interest." You can't succeed and better yourself if the government busily tells you that it's not fair that you earned your way and takes what you've earned away to give to others who haven't earned it.

I'm saying that our so-called assistance programs are broken and only provide the illusion of assistance. True assistance helps people stand on their own. It doesn't encourage them to become dependent forever by making standing on their own harder.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: ketsuko

The trap is not having enough decent paying jobs and not government assistance programs.

Explain to me what a decent paying job is.

There are figures that were released that showed that in some places a single mother who worked the public assistance programs available to her and worked full-time minimum wage could end up with more disposable income than a family of four with an income of $65,000/year.

To me, that woman is being heavily incentivized to not try to stand on her own. There is no way she is getting an entry level job that will let her make up the difference for what she will lose financially if she goes off public assistance, and most of our programs are very much all or nothing. So, if she makes just a bit too much, she will end up having to pay for all of it and be in a big bind.

You can't tell me that would be worth it to very many people.

a reply to: ketsuko

What roadblocks? Do you think that most on assistance wouldn't be happy to get off it for a good job?
What is the government taking away? The tax bracket rates haven't changed.
If the assistance programs are broken shouldn't we fix them and not get rid of them.

As an Australian businessman, I wish I hadn't had to move most of my resources to Asia. This was not due to greed but market forces. If "western'' govt's would get out of the way people like myself would help provide jobs in our native Countries. And no, I am not a 1% but a self made person with a High School degree. My son now speaks Chinese Mandarin.

a reply to: fripw

The tax brackets haven't changed? That's why our taxes went up 3% last year to the Feds? It sure wasn't because my husband went into a new bracket. It was because the tax cuts were allowed to expire.

Then there is Obamacare which takes away insurance policies many of us are happy with in order to force us to buy much more expensive policies that offer less. For us, that cost will amount to a second mortgage every month. It was basically done so that my family has to subsidize others because we are perceived as "rich."

If we want to save our money for retirement on our own, we are called "rich." Investment money is not fair anymore.

Everything that people used to look up to and aspire to being is now trashed.

originally posted by: CB328
I have been thinking of writing about this for a while. I am going to discuss why I think the new Libertarian movement is bad for America (aside from being full of Republicans).

Ever since George W Bush was elected to office and started displaying idiocy (and other bad traits) thousands of Republican voters have switched to calling themselves Libertarians (and assumedly voting for them). Also, many young people who are alienated by the establishment parties for corporatism, corruption, the environment or other reasons have also swelled the ranks of Libertarians. In my opinion this modern libertarian coalition is not good for America and here's why.

Most libertarians now are young males in their 20's and 30's. Many of these young men are idealistic, but their ideals are not based on a full understanding of the world, or politics, because they don't understand other segments of society and their needs. These Young men are predominately single or married without children, don't have health problems (and the massive costs they bring), are renters and many of them are employed in good paying jobs such as computer programmers, sales, etc. so they are insulated from a great deal of difficulty that "normal" people have to deal with.

Living in Washington state where there are a large number of libertarians, as well as democrats (and republicans in the Eastern part of the state), I have a lot of exposure to people of each persuasion. While conservatives like to call Democrats naive and idealistic (and that's true for some, mainly the younger ones), in my opinion the libertarians are worse. Because they have little attachment to the world, combined with low responsibilities and a high degree of mobility, flexibility and financial support, they see the problems of the rest of society as exaggerated, minimal, or even imaginary.

A prime example of this is Social Security, which many libertarians believe should be eliminated because supposedly everyone could save and profit more without it, and they feel that somehow they are being cheated by helping others in society. Other people, like moderates and Democrats, see the great utility and importance of the program because of all the needy people that rely on it, and realize that most people would not have the discipline, knowledge or ability to save that much money on their own. They see correctly, that removing this huge societal support would not only impact the retired people, many of whom rely on it, but would also impact their grown children who might have to start supporting them if their benefits are taken away. If the grown children have to support their parents then they will stay longer in the workforce preventing younger people from finding jobs. When the young people don't have jobs they won't have spending money to prop up the economy (and neither will their parents who are paying the grandparents bills).

This is just a small example of how many aspects to issues libertarians don't see or understand because they don't currently have to deal with them. There is also an issue of selfishness at play here, though most libertarians will deny it, it seems to me that many of these young libertarians feel that they don't have any obligations to society because their ideology makes it convenient to only care about yourself.

So with the Obama symbol in your avatar, I'm to assume you have a completely unbiased opinion right?

Libertarians are the closest thing to political sanity we have right now. Your side and the far right wing nuts have divided this country, and you seem to be proud of it.

I find more and more people are getting fed up with your partisan BS. The ranks of Independents and Libertarians are growing faster than ever.

Just like Obama was the greatest gun salesman in history, you partisan freaks are the greatest recruiters for free thinking to those of us wise enough to see through your divisive tactics.

a reply to: ketsuko

There are figures. A story of a single woman. All this is very vague. Sounds like urban myth to me or straight up propaganda for a certain political party.
Even if there is a case, it is mostly likely rare and insignificant. This is the kind of garbage spewed by FOX that likes to divert our attention from the real problems.

a reply to: ketsuko

You don't sound like a poor person to me. You sound like a person who has everything and wants to cut off the genetically inferior. You sound like a person who is deceived into thinking that the poor and assistance are the root cause of our problems. The problems of assistance are the result of deeper issues in our country.

The Obamacare stuff you mention sounds like verbatim propaganda from wacko FOX news.

a reply to: poncho1982

Ya, you're really free thinking. You've thunk yourself into the land of fantasy.
You want to create the second great libertarian government after Somalia's great template.
You libertarians don't get that government is not the problem. The problem is that the government is not "for" the people any longer but for the interests of big money, that now buys our officials and owns our courts.

I'm going to weigh in on this discussion now. I am a 29 year old, single, renting, no health problem, works as a systems administrator Libertarian. Oh and I'm also a veteran. You obviously have no idea what it is like to be young right now. With aging Baby Boomer population not retiring and wages not increasing, we are left with fewer and fewer options. I don't make enough money to live on my own. I need roommates and have taken to getting a small secondary job just to get that last bit of money so I can move out on my own. That is as a system admin, a job that should be making me financially secure. Luckily, thanks to the G.I. Bill, I don't have any college debt, but my peers do. Maybe I should call my friend up and ask how he is repaying his student loans while working at a job where he can barely pay the bills to live, let alone the bills for his education.

I'm glad you brought up Social Security. That is another bear that us young people have to carry around (all the imagery that goes with that metaphor applies). We are paying into a system that has been looted and pillaged to no end, doesn't pay interest to what it DOES pay out on top of an ever decreasing value of the dollar, and will probably be unavailable to us when we retire, and you are wondering why us young Libertarians are against this welfare program? You might as well call it Millennials Theft Social Security. It's not like we'll ever see any of that money again. Even if we did the payout each month by the time we retired probably wouldn't fill a week's worth of gas thanks to the 0% interest rate the government in its loving compassion negotiated for us.

Oh yeah, I mentioned that I am a veteran. Guess what other infamous institution I get to deal with? The VA. The same VA who tries to tell me that my knee that I blew out while serving in Iraq isn't a service related injury and every time I try to refile for benefits I have to wait a year+ to get seen. Fun times.

No I think I've come to my political decisions thanks to the efforts of both Republican and Democratic parties screwing everything up. Both grow the government in their own ways. Both suck the life out of the middle class. The Libertarian ideology just makes sense to the people you are trying to generalize. Maybe you should analyze why your party as well as the Republican party keeps screwing up, then you can learn why the young people are voting Libertarian. It just makes sense.

a reply to: fripw

The welfare numbers are from the Pennsylva nia secretary of public welfare. It uses numbers from his own state's pograms.

As the above chart – via Gary Alexander, Pennsylvania’s secretary of Public Welfare — shows, the single mom is better off earning gross income of $29,000 with $57,327 in net income and benefits than to earn gross income of $69,000 with net income & benefits of $57,045.

And what you call "FOX propaganda" is the best research I've been able to dig up in preparation for what we'll be facing if my husband's job drops us on the exchange. It is based off the numbers for what insurance on the exchange costs on average in our state. We are looking at about $2-300/person which is about $6-900/month making it a second mortgage.

You lose.

a reply to: fripw

That's because you don't know me or my situation.

I am not wealthy. I am saddled with college debts like most people who come out of college nowadays, so I already have two mortgages. Then, there is the chronic health condition which costs money. And there is the small fact that I have been underemployed since the downturn. We are budgeted very, very tight where we had plenty of elbow room before.

But go ahead and keep making assumptions. It lets me know what you are.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
The stuff about social security you mentioned is straight urban myth.
The political party system is one of the great evils in our country. It makes our system a charade, smoke and mirrors, a lie.
We have two camps, the republican's and the democrats. The republicans say what should repulse all of the common folk and never deliver. The democrats say what everyone should want and never deliver.
Both side argue about how evil the other is. The peasants take it all in and believe there is a big difference in the parties.
The reason is that both sides are run by the same boss. The international corporations and the billionaires are the boss.
They buy both sides and deliver the message to appeal to the different sides.

This is why libertarianism is so completely futile. Libertarians want to remove the final controls that inhibit the new boss from completely taking over. Libertarians are the fast track for the current decline. Libertarians think that these ideas are actually going to benefit their lives. What a joke.

Steady on Hoss! I would say Libertarians are your greatest ally. Do a little researh and see for yourself.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: poncho1982

Ya, you're really free thinking. You've thunk yourself into the land of fantasy.
You want to create the second great libertarian government after Somalia's great template.
You libertarians don't get that government is not the problem. The problem is that the government is not "for" the people any longer but for the interests of big money, that now buys our officials and owns our courts.

You mean like the land of fantasy that the Liberals believe in?

Yet more false truths from a far lefty.

You think the left is immune from the influence of big money? Give me a break, it just comes from another direction, in a different divisive role.

Comparing Libertarians to Somalians is like comparing Democrats to Anarchists. Two completely different realms of reality.

FYI, I'm an Independent. I just happen to believe that Libertarians are far less evil than Dems or Repubs.

And yes, Government IS the problem in it's current divided form. Whether that be from the interests of big money, or the interests of socialists take your pick. Either way, it's just as bad. Less Government is ideal, not the absence of government.

Get your head out of the sand.

originally posted by: fripw
a reply to: Krazysh0t
The stuff about social security you mentioned is straight urban myth.
The political party system is one of the great evils in our country. It makes our system a charade, smoke and mirrors, a lie.
We have two camps, the republican's and the democrats. The republicans say what should repulse all of the common folk and never deliver. The democrats say what everyone should want and never deliver.
Both side argue about how evil the other is. The peasants take it all in and believe there is a big difference in the parties.
The reason is that both sides are run by the same boss. The international corporations and the billionaires are the boss.
They buy both sides and deliver the message to appeal to the different sides.

This is why libertarianism is so completely futile. Libertarians want to remove the final controls that inhibit the new boss from completely taking over. Libertarians think that these ideas are actually going to benefit their lives. What a joke.

If you would actually study and make an attempt to understand Libertarianism then you would know that what you just said is a crock. First off, I already know that the Republican and Democrat parties are worthless. That's why I associate with neither. Second off, if you are going to tell me that what I said about social security is a myth then prove it. Show me how the money taken from our paychecks actually does have interest on it. Show me how the people in charge haven't raided and pillaged the social security fund. Show me the math that works out to say that social security won't be defunct by the the time I retire and will be able to provide a livable wage for the rest of my life. Come on mr myth, put your money where your mouth is for once and prove it. All I'm reading from you is thinly veiled political trolling with zero substance behind it.

Let's start with what YOU think the correct answer is supposed to be. If my ideology is so worthless to you that you have to talk down to the people who think like it, then what in your vast intelligence is what we should do? You've given me a lot about corporations, but heres the thing about corporations, they are going to do what they do. Part of Libertarian ideology is that we also want to get business out of government as well. Protected monopolies, corporate subsidies, protected industries, all these things help create unfair business practices and give undo power to corporate entities. But the power originates from the government. We Libertarians want to end these practices. It's not just about ending government organizations that restrain corporations like you are trying to suggest.

All I know is that the Republican and Democratic parties aren't getting the job done. I don't like to be told what to do and I've come to believe that most people don't like to be told what to do. I've learned that people do things better and more successfully when they do them because they WANT to. Government control creates resistance. Whereas education and learning can show them the correct way to do things which fosters the desire to do these things instead of coerces them to do it. That is what Libertarian philosophy is about. Live and let live.

Seiously, I think you don't understand Libertarians. True Libertarians founded America. All Libertarians that I know believe in freedom, democracy, and a Republic. They also believe STRONGLY in the rule of law and a social contract. Libertarians do not agree with corporate facism. Like I said in my last post, please research. You may be surprised.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You asserted that social security was bankrupt, so you need to prove it. In your research you will find that I am correct.

There are only 2 ways I can think of to fix our country.
1.(this is not going to happen) People truly educate themselves and truly take an active interest in what is happening politically and the true ramifications.
2. We spiral to a point like the early twenties or a kind of fascist or feudalistic government. People are treated like the citizens of the hunger games. The light bulb goes on and the little man begins to take an interest and understand the true ways that he is being abused.

The libertarian philosophy is "horde and screw it" or "we can't all live good so tfb for you".