Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

As far as investigation goes, and the black box, Ukraine and Russia should not be involved. If a cop shoots someone dead, should he be the judge in his own trial?

As far as everything else goes, I'm not getting into these arguments. It is horrible that this happened, and I'm sure it was most likely an accident, but still need to look deeper into it because this isn't just a car crash, it's an airliner full of international civilians. Malaysia shouldn't lead any investigation either, look how bad they messed up MH 370.

originally posted by: WASTYT
a reply to: thesaneone

Russia is provoking war, but unfortunately the West will do nothing about it.

If Russia wanted to provoke a war they coulda sunk an aircraft carrier not a freaking 777. Who the hell starts their opening salvo like that?

Finally! Just finished reading / scanning the thread. A lot of opinions, biases and some interesting facts.

First off, prayers to those who perished and to their families. My brain just fails to understand such senseless loss of lives.

So far this is what I understand from my readings here and other sites and watching the news on TV:

FACTS

1. A Malaysian Airline Boeing 777 (MH0017) crashed in Eastern Ukraine.
2. According to Flightradar history, it changed its flight path with last tracked location at 8:11am EDT.
3. No official reason yet given.

NOT FACTS / UNVERIFIED

1. The plane was most likely shot down by a missile.
2. Pro-Russian separatists with SAM tech did it.
3. Ukraine steered the plane into a dangerous area where it knew it would likely get shot down.
4. Ukrainian military shot the plane down.
5. Russia has black box.
6. Youtube videos depicting the actual crash and/or incident.
7. Twitter accounts by rebels and other parties concerned.
8. Tapped conversations of rebels.

MOTIVES

1. False flag for U.S. / E.U. / NATO.
2. Distraction from Israel / Gaza conflict.
3. Ukraine drumming up support against Russian invasion.
4. An accident by Russia.

So far, as I'm concerned, there has been no hard evidence YET to state with absolute certainty that the plane was shot down by a missile. Aside from Obama going on record that they have intel that a SAM from Pro-Russian separatist controlled territory was responsible...not being biased but given the U.S. track record for lying...I'll take it with a grain of salt.

I'm not too fund of Russia either. Frankly I don't care if the U.S. and Russia blow each other off the face of the earth. Let them have their war. Just don't get the other countries involved.

Look at Canada. They get along pretty well with everybody. Or Iceland...she doesn't hassle anyone.


QUESTIONS

1. Who took the video of the crash site that's being shown in the news especially CNN which has been using it as a backdrop?
2. How long will it take to decipher the black box info?

That's all I have for now. Hope everyone keeps an open mind on this one. Terrible. Just terrible.

Since history is 'revelant' to the topic.

Here is a blast from the past.

Korean Air lines FLight 007

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007[note 2]) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor near Moneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the Sea of Japan.

en.wikipedia.org...

The scoreboard says:

Russia 2.
US 1.

Starting to look like an armed force will be needed just to get the bodies collected, much less an investigation. Starting to see why only the hard core Russians like these dudes.

a reply to: rustyclutch

Wars have started over less.

originally posted by: SixX18
As far as investigation goes, and the black box, Ukraine and Russia should not be involved. If a cop shoots someone dead, should he be the judge in his own trial?

As far as everything else goes, I'm not getting into these arguments. It is horrible that this happened, and I'm sure it was most likely an accident, but still need to look deeper into it because this isn't just a car crash, it's an airliner full of international civilians. Malaysia shouldn't lead any investigation either, look how bad they messed up MH 370.

I can agree with this the question is...... Who is impartial enough to do such an investigation? Maybe the Germans? Definitely not the Brits, or Americans.

U.S. is running with the narrative that it was shot down as well...

this could get messy....already more than it is anyway....

RIP to all those innocent people.... apparently we lost some of the leading minds in the HIV/AIDS studies...

originally posted by: WASTYT
a reply to: thesaneone

Russia is provoking war, but unfortunately the West will do nothing about it.

That's because they know that Obama is weak.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: sheepslayer247

What should be done?

Should have listened to Romney then maybe this wouldn't have happened.

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney called Russia "without question our number one geopolitical foe" Monday on CNN.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

I say without question HE WAS RIGHT.

What should we do ?

Sanctions.

Pull out of any treaties.

Put back the missile defense network in the EU.

Kick their snip off of the UN Security Council.

Lots of stuff could be done.

Instead of worrying about hurting anyone's feelings.

We do not have the proper information to say Russia is responsible for this. Don't you think it's a bit premature to take that route?

Anyway, do you really think the UN will toss more sanctions at Russia or punish them in any fashion? Russia has a lot of power and resources. They hold the cards, Neo. We have nothing. America is no longer the world's superpower and we have to realize that before we go around throwing what little weight we have at people we dislike.

And before you try to blame Obama for that, let's agree that our decline has been many years in the making.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: rustyclutch

Wars have started over less.

Oh I know they have started over less....but it seems like an idiotic move to start a war if it was really Russia. I'm more inclined to believe it was one of the rebels. Not that I think the russians are beyond assassinating people. There was that plane crash with the polish government. It just seems to me like Putin has been doing everything he can to avoid going into Ukraine. He had support from his parliament. He asked them to revoke it. He could have just taken out a bunch of military hardware in Ukraine with missile strikes and called it retalliation for shells coming across the border. Israel does it all the time. A jetliner just sounds totally dumb for a government to shoot down unless there was someone or something on that plane they wanted destroyed.

Dual citizenshiop perhaps? Or they are still trying to contact the next of kin or relatives before they bring up the names in public.

a reply to: rustyclutch

Not everyone.. Just the normal contingent hell bent on trying to blame someone other than the rebels for the shoot down.

a reply to: rustyclutch

These are provocations to test the fortitude of the West.
Any deliberate shoot down of a civilian craft is grounds for war.

a reply to: rustyclutch

Canadians? Everyone likes them.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: rustyclutch

Wars have started over less.

Great. So what the hell are we waiting for? An invasion of Europe?

a reply to: cosmonova

REally?

LOL

Ill let you go back to calling Ukrainians Nazi's.

Any other excuses to shift blame away from the pro Russian terrorists rebels / russians?

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances led to this when the Ukraine gave up their nuclear arms. They said it was to keep them from selling arms to Iran but it was to make sure that there was a doorway for Russia and/or a place the US could move troops and missile shields if needed during the post cold war.

The US expressed that it was disarming but really just set this stage. According to that pact, when Russia crossed the border the US and GB should have moved to assist...and did not.

So now, we have multiple provocations to start a conflict no one wants..or needs. Like a downing of an airliner. I want to see the manifest and who else was on that plane. It could not have been as random as is discussed or maybe it was to be blamed on the Ukraine for trying to hit Putin's plane.

originally posted by: matafuchs
a reply to: AstralTrespass

I already stated that I do not want an all out war. What we need are some leaders with balls that speak out when something like this occurs and does not simply head off on vacation. I am also not comparing administrations as those people are in the past and did what they did. I mean the current admin. I would not care if it was O or Hil or some other puppet, the fact is that you cannot threaten more sanctions when it is 'very clear' what happened. Look at the facts...

1. A commercial airliner was shot down.
2. No mechanical failures...cannot back track
3. Very large and long debris field
4. Multiple airplanes were shot down or hit in the past 3 weeks in the same region.
5. The Ukrainian invasion is at a stalemate. We have not moved to assist the Ukraine so this is a "poke the West' moment. This is not a 'downed US drone caught' situation. This was not a mistake. It is a calculated way to gain response, reaction and allow a further foothold in the region for Russia. They will tell the Ukrainians, even though it was pro-Russian separatists they need more protection in the region...and people will buy it.

There is no need for war but if the US and its allies do not call Russia out on this they will not be able to say anything in the future. It is setting a dangerous precedent for the loss of innocent lives.

Point number 5 is very wrong. The war between the countries of Ukraine and Novorussia is not at a stalemate. Novorussia has been kicking ass in recent days, killing hundreds of Kiev troops. The freedom fighters set up a trap for the junta forces when they retreated from Slovyansk, trapping 3,000 junta forces on the southern border between Novorussia and Russia. Junta forces are returning home in body bags, so much so that we have screaming mothers trying to prevent their drafted sons from being taken to war. The Kiev population has been turning against this war in recent days, and the Kiev military is losing on the ground. This is reminiscent of Viet Nam. I mentioned these facts in another thread the day before the plane was shot down stating that the situation was desperate for Ukraine and the US which meant that they would do something like this, shooting down a civilian plane and blaming it on the rebels. There is absolutely no evidence from an impartial source that the freedom fighters shot this down or have the capability to shoot this down. The only purported evidence has been provided by the fascist regime which lies by the minute about everything that is going on in the war, and constantly produces videos of intercepted phone calls of direct Russian involvement. They must have a better intelligence service than the CIA or MI5 because they are intercepting phone calls of Russian intelligence on a regular basis which the US and UK have been unable to do. One point you failed to make is that this plane was redirected from its normal route to fly over the area of the most intense fighting by Kiev air traffic control. Kiev moved Buk missile system into this area the day before. Either they did this to protect from the Su25 that the rebels had captured and are using, or they did this to shoot down this plane. Putin is not stupid. If the freedom fighters did this he would not be blaming the Ukrainian government specifically, which means he has evidence.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

and yet people are dismissing the phone conversations out of hand yet have no issues jumping onto the "Spanish" ATC talking about a missile shooting the plane down from Ukrainian fighter jets. I see people are more than happy to accept that as fact.