Is this really faith in life?

When Abraham went to sacrifice his child, he knew his son would come back home with him. Abraham says..."Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you." Even though God told him to offer up Isaac as a burnt offering, Abraham knew they both would come back. How did he know? God told him..." "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." Isaac was their son. "I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

a reply to: addygrace

Yes, Addygrace. Isaac was their son. But I don't see anywhere in what you've quoted here any explanation as to God asking that of Abraham…… Certainly, God's promise to Abraham and Sarah (name change, included) noted, but it doesn't explain nor serve as any such promise that God didn't really mean what he asked of Abraham, does it?

I mean no disrespect, but I've read those same verses, and I truly don't see that it answers my question…..and this to me, unfortunately, is further evidence, that the faithful, as yourself, are being hoodwinked by the very text they utilize to reinforce their said faith.

However, this thread really isn't about what I see as the nonsensical aspects of scipture, but rather, about what this particular text is being used for in today's world. If anyone is lacking understanding of what I mean by that, please re-read my OP.
Sincerely,
Tetra50

a reply to: tetra50
Through the years of my life, I've many times admired people of faith. But just as often, not, I'm afraid. Regardless, that is besides the point of this OP. This OP had a very specific message.

I think faith to be a very personal thing. And I don't think it should hinge upon any text, because all texts, in today's world, are possibly misstranslated, written wrong or just delivered wrong. Therefore, it is up to those of faith to discern that fact, and to not hinge their faith in God upon any other man or woman's writings…..

But, that, as anything else, is just my opinion.

Faith can get us through a lot. In many times, it is all we have. I do not intend, by my words here, to remove anyone from their faith, and so remove from them the way they may chiefly get along in a life where so much depends on being faithful, I think…..

Take care and be well.
Tetra

a reply to: addygrace

When Abraham went to sacrifice his child, he knew his son would come back home with him.

It seems to be a recurring theme in Genesis, rivalry between brothers, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Joseph and his brothers, the sons of Israel, and here with Isaac and Ishmael.
So you have a situation where Ishmael was supposed to die in the desert, but is saved, so maybe there has to then be a counter to that story, with a similar story about how Isaac was supposed to get killed but is then saved miraculously.

If Ishmael was Abraham's "first born", then by some sort of tradition, God (or a god) had claim on him.
If Isaac was Abraham's "first born" (by Ishmael being rejected by Abraham), then that claim gets transferred.
So that sets up the "danger of death" scenario that he is then saved from.
The character seems to have no other purpose in the book besides this transference of official bloodline.

originally posted by: tetra50
I've been a student of the Bible, the King James Version, for a very long time. Having said that, the more I've come to know and read scripture, the more separated from "faith" I have become.

I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving, and wanted us to excel, love one another and procreate (multiply) and have faith in His goodness and the goodness in one another, that exists because we are of His image.

I have reached middle age having witnessed anything but what I described above.

Sure, we all see lots of ill in this world. But I want to focus upon the "Word" and what it tells us. My thinking is: perhaps the Bible, long before the council of Nicea, was changed. Perhaps it was even written and presented to us, to serve as a "meter," a test, for what we would and would not agree and comply with.

Abraham: and God's test to him to take his son to the top of the mount, having faith in His instructions, and kill his son, according to God's supposed word. What I described as "God" previously, would never ask that of a man, woman, parent….anyone.

Should I go on?

It seems to me that the whole concept of Jesus, having died "for our sins," is a psy ops (read: psychological operation) in cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, of a sort, intended to shame us all into a certain way of life, or pay the price. The thing is, vice configured and vice presented, no matter your behavior, you will still be asked, demanded, to make the certain sacrifice.

In other words, it seems to me that the whole idea of a savior dying for all our sins, is to glorify the concept of sacrifice, so that sacrifice, whether it be on a witchcraft, Sam Fein level, or a Christian level, is the very same……
Presented with choices which aren't choices at all, but to tell the truth or lie about it, be successful in the lie, as the Devi owns this world and will reward you for supporting Him, it all ends in the same: the pit, death, suffering, etc.
And the Word, the Bible, only softens you up, so to speak, for that end…..

You can sacrifice your life for what you believe to be the truth, and die a painful death, as the Devil is in control, hereabouts. Or you can go along with Him, and suffer, anyway.

I am interested in the thoughts of others, and expect, especially, the Christian membership on this site, to flame away. Have at it.
The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing? Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins? Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……

Tetra50

As far as I can tell, the Bible is about opening peoples eyes to the insane evil in the world. It's about holding up a mirror to people and asking them to get rid of their sin that binds them. The Bible is about Freedom. Give up your Earthly possessions and follow Christ. Why Christ? Because he was tempted and was sinless. He died for that Freedom. Love God and Love other people as you love yourself. The first part of the Bible demonstrates the mirror by which God is showing you you're selfishness. It sets up the second part, by which there is an answer to these flaws that we all have. It's a blueprint to salvation. Turn away from your sin and choose the life that God intended you to have.

As far as sacrifice...In order to repent of your sin you will have to sacrifice many earthly indulgences. You need to stop hating your neighbor, God, and in some cases yourself. Love people. Just Love them without provocation. Love God, who tells the sun to rise in the morning.(please don't misunderstand this. I know the Earth spins.) Let Heaven flow through you. Sacrifice your life on Earth for your Eternal life.

Are you reading the Bible as an application in your life? Or are you reading the Bible to pick up contradictions?

Believe in God and your life will change. It's not enough to just believe he's there. The Bible says all men know and are without excuse. You must believe he is the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, and your Father which art in Heaven. Most people cherish their Earthly Father if he's loving, and sometimes even if he's not. How much greater is he who breathed into your nostrils and made you a living soul, eternally.

As far as this being some kind of psyops, I don't see it. I mean, were the original writers trying to get people to Love one another?

Look at your children. Nobody could convince me, my children aren't from God. They love so much, then the world tears that love out of them. Think about it....Early they are extremely loving, and as they age they become part of the world. The world is cold. Hopefully they see this and remember God loves them, more than their parents. I sacrifice for my kids, but it doesn't even compare to Gods sacrifice.

a reply to: tetra50

Think of it like we are all trapped in a room with no doors. That is, there is no exist, just as there is no exist to reality.

Well, there is a place where sin goes, sort of like a landfill - that place is called Hades - it is where the trash goes - the trash being sin. Jesus basically took our trash out for us so we could have a clean room in God's house - that is the concept you are looking for.

Moreover, the concept of sacrifice plays into infinity with Jesus, as he has sacrificed his body for us since day 1. It is his body that we dwell in - it is his body which we live by - it is his body that is the Word, Logos, the light of all mankind, etc. He is the images and sounds and all things sensed, and he gives himself to us in order for us to know God the Father, as he is a teacher and that is the concept of what a teachers' spirit is to be... and that is his role just as your role/spirit is to be a child of God, which means to take on God's spirit and reproduce his concepts - his awareness - his I am, or consciousness (you are to be like a child and children reproduce concepts/awareness faithfully in their images).

Sorry for telling you some of the mystery if you are not ready for it but I couldnt see how else to explain it to you.

Keep thinking and seeking concepts... seek the images to know God... seek Jesus to know Yahweh, as concepts are only transferable through images/words/etc.

Yup. I'm giving my own thread a bump, as it relates to a recent thread, showing unfortunately, the very same attitudes alive and well today, that brought us the Holocaust. Religion as a psy-ops. That was always the point of this thread. Or everyone here, perhaps, is pretending to represent an "opinion" for another purpose altogether….
Hmmmm
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

If you notice a difference towards you and this thread, that
is apart from my more familiar ATS persona. Be advised, it is only
an affect of your obvious sincerity. Aside from the fact that I
like you. he he.

There was a point I reached when like you, I had these same
kind of, or even these exact same questions, you're pondering
here. But if that's not all that's going on with Tetra? If there is
more to her doubts than some contradictions and misconceptions?
If she is more bound to the world and this
life in some way, than she ever could be to God? Nothing I
can tell her will make that different. But the answers I've
been given, did come only with great patience and after
putting the question aside, with no effect on my love for
or my faith in, God. That I feel, should just be there, even as
natural as the love one feels for their Mother and Father or
even ones own children. And yes, more abundantly should you
love God, than anything of this world or in Heaven.

The way I interpret, is nothing of what I learned in a school,
or heard from a man. They would just dawn on me one day,
as I was roofing a house, or at work, or at disneyland. Very
hard to explain but I think it was patience that was the biggest
factor in any revelation to my worthless ass at all. Seriously!

Abraham: and God's test to him to take his son to the top of the mount, having faith in His instructions, and kill his son, according to God's supposed word. What I described as "God" previously, would never ask that of a man, woman, parent….anyone.

The thing I notice most about this? Is that Gods son would be
sacrificed thru the lineage of this man, Abraham. Can you
imagine the anguish in Gods heart at what his son would
have to endure for us? For God to be God he would have
to have a heart. And every heart comes with the same
defect i.e.it can be broken.

a reply to: randyvs
Thanks for that wisdom, for that is what it is. I am not so bound to this earth, that I do not recognize it.
I will think on what you have said to me for a long while.
What sticks with me so far, is God willing, with heart broken, to sacrifice his lineage, and know what that is. The other thing that sticks is, no matter how I've sought Him, I no longer know what binds me to it, the earth or God or something in-between….but thank you for your considerate reply, regardless.
tetra

a reply to: DeadSeraph

"Why do beautiful little 3 year old kids die of cancer?"

Some don't believe in the trinity but if the holy ghost is in fact our material universe then it operates under rules defined by its substance (which is explained mathematically by scientist) not directly by the father. But if our existence in this material world is nothing but a dream perhaps the beautiful little 3 year old child will have a better dream the next night (or life).

"My mom always used to tell me: It's okay to be angry at God. He's big enough he can handle it."

Mums are smart like that.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: DeadSeraph

"Why do beautiful little 3 year old kids die of cancer?"

Some don't believe in the trinity but if the holy ghost is in fact our material universe then it operates under rules defined by its substance (which is explained mathematically by scientist) not directly by the father. But if our existence in this material world is nothing but a dream perhaps the beautiful little 3 year old child will have a better dream the next night (or life).

"My mom always used to tell me: It's okay to be angry at God. He's big enough he can handle it."

Mums are smart like that.

Yes, mums are smart like that, and I like what yours said.

You know, I wonder all the time at what you've said here….why would God do such a thing, if he loved life, loved us, his creation….
I still wonder that.
It separates me sometimes from faith, in a very big way.
But then, I read other things….things full of judgement about us as people, of faith, of certain skin color, of ethnicity, nationality, whatever…..I read things reminiscent of other days, which we seemed doomed to repeat because folks are still THERE, with it, whatever IT is….
Looking for something, someone, some reason, to HATE, to vilify, to judge, to say you are not included in my little group, and my little group HATES you….

And these days, we think we know so much, but we really don't as we're living in an age of paramount shared intelligence, but that intelligence is shared some places and called something else somewhere else, and shared to conquer….

I hate the times we live in. I see death, disease, discomfort, pain, and KNOW there are cures for every one of those ills, and someone else judges us, and decides we are not worthy, apparently, and should still suffer.
But it's not God, my friend. No, never. As separated as I am, at times, from faith, I know this is not God, that does this…..

Thanks for your reply.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

That was DeadSeraph Mum that said that, not mine. Mine would tell be to bitc* elsewhere

"I hate the times we live in"

So do I and a great many others. Gospel of Thomas strangely tells..

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

It really infers that without conflict a great many of us will never turn to God. So he sends a nightmare our way to try wake us up from slumber. Definitely working on me, trying pinch myself awake all the time from this hell hole!

Perhaps it is that: perhaps God knows we need the trial to turn to Him….
But this is the thing: I read a lot. I see people struggling, hurting, daily. And rather than turn to him, they leave. I do that, too. I'm not above that, surely. But my point is this: It doesn't engender more grace, nor love, nor acceptance, apparently within us.

I've been reading a recent thread, comparing Hitler's Germany to today's attitude toward Islam. It's become the same thing, sadly. Nothing, apparently, has been learned. So I wrote, By Grace Alone, hoping, that not only would I get it, but someone else out there who needed it right now, would get it, too…..

Are you happy to be alive? I'm miserable. Friggin miserable, daily. But I know death, intimately, and given the choice, I'm still relatively happy to be alive. Am I worthy to judge anyone else….absolutely not.
thanks for your replies
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

From what I understand:

God creates man

God creates man's operating environment (Earth) so he as a place to live

Man is safe as long as he remembers that God created him

Man is doomed if he forgets that God created him*

* This is because man will lose his connection and thus his place in God's creation.

That is basically it, you were created, and you can question this, if you deny that you were, then, you will no-longer be in Gods operating environment, and you will fall into a place where God cannot support you anymore - they call it "Hell".

Lets imagine that we can create robots - when the robots follow their programs, they do their jobs and enjoy their experiences, when they are taught to tamper with their programming, they start to have errors.

Vis-à-vis - God created man and all was well, until man was given the knowledge of good and evil - like a robot gaining access to its own blueprints containing codes that only the operators were allowed to know about.

If a corrupted robot finally loses all the programming functions of his designer - one falls completely - then it ceases to function properly and suffers - one ends up in Hell due to their sins.

Here comes Jesus to save man from the sins that he has made, so man does not continue his path to hell...

In terms of our robot analogy - corrupted robots can have all their malfunctions taken care of if they recognise that their original programming is what they are supposed to have, and in this recognition, they can then have their systems de-bugged and their original operating protocols restored - i.e. saved.

a reply to: tetra50
SystemResistor: Great analogy. What an irony in your name…

It's interesting because I just got through saying something similiar to someone in a private message asking for how to deal with this. Basically, it's almost like a scripted behavior modification program,and we have to discover if the torture lets up when we live a particular way, and accept that. In other words, if your system seems more de-bugged if some behavior, like prayer, say or abstaining for alcohol, is rewarded, then do that.

I accept that someone else is pulling the strings, and attempt to discover what the string puller wants of me, and stop fighting it…so that this isn't "hell" anymore---if that's possible. I'm beaten, and trying to be a good robot today, as per your analogy.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
tetra

I'm not completely sure what your confusion is, however you seem to be fixated on the aspect of sacrifice. "What's the point?" Is that the question? If it is, then the answer is simple, though you might not like it, and there are a few on this thread that will roll their collective eyes, but here it is. When man sinned in the Garden of Eden, God promised him previously that he would surely die. God decided NOT to kill them. Adam & Eve were instead shown mercy, and allowed to live. When God says a thing will be done, then it must be. When He decided to be lenient with His creations, there remained a debt to be paid. God pays His debts, and expects the same of us, which is the point of accountability on the day of judgement.

In the end, the Hebrews had to sacrifice a pure creature, to keep the debt held over for another time. Why did Jesus need to die? Because when Adam and Eve fell, they were perfect beings. God decreed that a perfect being would die, and so only a perfect being would be able to pay the debt incurred. Jesus came into this World in order to save it. He willingly sacrificed himself to pay for the sin of man, the only possible being that could. The reason why his sacrifice has value, the reason why it matters, even though he is in Heaven as you say. Is that he can never do it again. He can never be born again into this World, he can never know the flesh, the mortal condition, life as we know it. To each man is given one life, and one death. He gave his life for you, in a most painful and humiliating fashion. If that wasn't a good enough sacrifice for you, then I am not sure what you need.

You seem to doubt that God exists, and seem to be looking for a convenient answer to cling to. The problem with that is, you are unwilling to let God be God. You think your morality, your experience, and your limited human mental capabilities are superior to your own Creator. People always want to dictate the rules to God, and be aware, I am not necessarily talking about you solely here, however, God makes the rules. It doesn't matter whether we like them or not. Does that make God a bit of a tyrant? No. At least, no more so than your biological parent telling you not to run out in front of traffic, does.

Faith the illogical belief in the irrational

originally posted by: tetra50

I think faith to be a very personal thing. And I don't think it should hinge upon any text, because all texts, in today's world, are possibly misstranslated, written wrong or just delivered wrong.

The above is paramount...

....Faith is not about 'believing' in God, it's about being 'in relationship' with Him - and just as your relationship with any given person is different than anyone else's relationship with that person...

....so your relationship with God is different than anyone else's relationship with Him.

I can't expound on this right now, because it's 4:30 in the morning and I've got to get to bed, but I've just started a new thread called, "My faith in a nutshell - actually, it's in a poem"...I think you might like it..

Sorry not to link it here, links take me a really long time and it's so late/early, you know what I mean

“You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.".

The bible is confusing and often times contradictory, and I believe it was distorted in many ways to fit the human perception. It also can be interpreted in many different ways.
I never understood Jesus' sacrifice either; after all he was the only one without sin. To whom did God sacrifice his only son? To himself ? To a higher power? Have no idea, and it doesn't make sense.

But instead of going insane trying to understand such a confusing book who may not even be correct, I would try to find a direct connection with god. Who needs an instructions manual when has experienced the real thing?

From my experience, the way to know god personally is often by avoiding religion as a dogma, and using your heart.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

If that wasn't a good enough sacrifice for you, then I am not sure what you need.

You seem to doubt that God exists, and seem to be looking for a convenient answer to cling to. The problem with that is, you are unwilling to let God be God. You think your morality, your experience, and your limited human mental capabilities are superior to your own Creator.

I am going to strive here to reign in my temper, for your words are quite insulting. But your explanation was of great value. I thank you for that. But you could have delivered it with the love and compassion that Jesus' life, perhaps, was meant to teach you. If his painful and humiliating death wasn't enough to teach you that, then I feel bad for you and those around you, sharing life with you.

Perhaps you've missed the point of the thread. The point was how mankind perceives and uses religion against their fellow man. That's kind of what psy-ops means. Sacrifice, in this case, used to convince people they should emulate Jesus and sacrifice their lives, and what comes out of that. Sometimes it actually isn't the best thing for everyone. Who does it leave behind, for the people who truly care about one another, are gone. But I'll leave you to discover that on your own, as I evidently have limited human mental capabilities.
tetra