Is this really faith in life?

I've been a student of the Bible, the King James Version, for a very long time. Having said that, the more I've come to know and read scripture, the more separated from "faith" I have become.

I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving, and wanted us to excel, love one another and procreate (multiply) and have faith in His goodness and the goodness in one another, that exists because we are of His image.

I have reached middle age having witnessed anything but what I described above.

Sure, we all see lots of ill in this world. But I want to focus upon the "Word" and what it tells us. My thinking is: perhaps the Bible, long before the council of Nicea, was changed. Perhaps it was even written and presented to us, to serve as a "meter," a test, for what we would and would not agree and comply with.

Abraham: and God's test to him to take his son to the top of the mount, having faith in His instructions, and kill his son, according to God's supposed word. What I described as "God" previously, would never ask that of a man, woman, parent….anyone.

Should I go on?

It seems to me that the whole concept of Jesus, having died "for our sins," is a psy ops (read: psychological operation) in cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, of a sort, intended to shame us all into a certain way of life, or pay the price. The thing is, vice configured and vice presented, no matter your behavior, you will still be asked, demanded, to make the certain sacrifice.

In other words, it seems to me that the whole idea of a savior dying for all our sins, is to glorify the concept of sacrifice, so that sacrifice, whether it be on a witchcraft, Sam Fein level, or a Christian level, is the very same……
Presented with choices which aren't choices at all, but to tell the truth or lie about it, be successful in the lie, as the Devi owns this world and will reward you for supporting Him, it all ends in the same: the pit, death, suffering, etc.
And the Word, the Bible, only softens you up, so to speak, for that end…..

You can sacrifice your life for what you believe to be the truth, and die a painful death, as the Devil is in control, hereabouts. Or you can go along with Him, and suffer, anyway.

I am interested in the thoughts of others, and expect, especially, the Christian membership on this site, to flame away. Have at it.
The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing? Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins? Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……

Tetra50

a reply to: tetra50

Christ turned sacrifice into sacrament.

It was the ultimate expression of ultimate love that God would suffer death by torture just to get your attention.

It is a paradox that if you try to hang on to life (protect yourself "in cotton wool"), you will not have a life. But if you risk your life (extreme sports & etc) you are "really living"!

But better than taking what we want, there is no better way of "getting more from life" than giving it away (usually in service). Christ took that to the extreme as an example to us.

And consider other translations, the KJV is written in out of date language which can be confusing. (I like "The Message" version by Eugene Petersen as it isn't a word for word translation but rather is an attempt to be true to the content of each passage, an idea for idea transation, if you will).

Cheers.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: tetra50

Christ turned sacrifice into sacrament.

It was the ultimate expression of ultimate love that God would suffer death by torture just to get your attention.

You are a very confused human...unless you are being sarcastic.

sac·ra·ment noun ˈsa-krə-mənt
: an important Christian ceremony (such as baptism or marriage)

the Sacrament : the bread and wine that are eaten and drunk during the Christian ceremony of Communion

Full Definition of SACRAMENT

1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality

Thank you, Chronaut, for your response, and also, bringing me more to the point, as to Sacrament:

He not only turned the water into wine, etc….
but we are encouraged to believe through His words, at the Last Supper, that the sacrament of his sacrifice of blood, we should take to comfort us in his departure and absence:

Mark 14:22-24 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, ‘Take ye: this is my body.’

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ‘This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.’
Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.’

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’

See what I am saying?

Does this not lead to cannabilism?

Read Isiaah: it will speak of "you will feed upon the flesh of your enemies, " etc…..

How is this a loving thy neighbor approach to anything, whatsoever?
Tetra

a reply to: ImaFungi
thanks ImaFungi.

Stay tuned, please, as above, I supported my argument/question.

Do not mistake me, Christians. I intend no blasphemy. I really want to know, understand. For this is what many of us hinge our lives and hope for life upon….so I want an explanation and to truly understand.

But I will support my argument, philosophically, as I have with Chronaut, as those respond…
Tetra50

P.S. They say even Hell has its version of the Bible…...

a reply to: chr0naut

The sacrament is totally the issue being described here. Think you probably grok that…anyway.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50
its pretty easy to become disillusioned whilst reading the bible...

Mu suggestion to you is to stick to the gospels... Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

That is all you need from that book...

And by the way, the council of Nicea wasn't about establishing the bible canon

It was about The Arian Controversy...

And the losing side had it right... sadly enough

originally posted by: tetra50

sac·ra·ment noun ˈsa-krə-mənt
: an important Christian ceremony (such as baptism or marriage)

the Sacrament : the bread and wine that are eaten and drunk during the Christian ceremony of Communion

Full Definition of SACRAMENT

1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality

Thank you, Chronaut, for your response, and also, bringing me more to the point, as to Sacrament:

He not only turned the water into wine, etc….
but we are encouraged to believe through His words, at the Last Supper, that the sacrament of his sacrifice of blood, we should take to comfort us in his departure and absence:

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ‘This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.’

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.’

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’

See what I am saying?

Does this not lead to cannabilism?

Read Isiaah: it will speak of "you will feed upon the flesh of your enemies, " etc…..

How is this a loving thy neighbor approach to anything, whatsoever?
Tetra

Well, historically, this has not led to cannibalism.

If Christ had just said "Cmon guys, can't we all just get along" we probably wouldn't be discussing it 2,000 years later.

If God just saved us from sin without our knowing of the awful consequence of it, there would be no repentance, no change of direction in thought or deed.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: tetra50
its pretty easy to become disillusioned whilst reading the bible...

Mu suggestion to you is to stick to the gospels... Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

That is all you need from that book...

And by the way, the council of Nicea wasn't about establishing the bible canon

It was about The Arian Controversy...

And the losing side had it right... sadly enough

Thanks for your reply and consideration, Akragon. Sadly, some of what I quoted above came from those gospels….

And, I agree with you totally about the losing side had it right, and that only supports my thesis, here, sadly…..as I would love to have faith more than anything……..

Thanks for your reply.
Tetra50

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: tetra50

sac·ra·ment noun ˈsa-krə-mənt
: an important Christian ceremony (such as baptism or marriage)

the Sacrament : the bread and wine that are eaten and drunk during the Christian ceremony of Communion

Full Definition of SACRAMENT

1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality

Thank you, Chronaut, for your response, and also, bringing me more to the point, as to Sacrament:

He not only turned the water into wine, etc….
but we are encouraged to believe through His words, at the Last Supper, that the sacrament of his sacrifice of blood, we should take to comfort us in his departure and absence:

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ‘This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.’

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.’

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’

See what I am saying?

Does this not lead to cannabilism?

Read Isiaah: it will speak of "you will feed upon the flesh of your enemies, " etc…..

How is this a loving thy neighbor approach to anything, whatsoever?
Tetra

Well, historically, this has not led to cannibalism.

If Christ had just said "Cmon guys, can't we all just get along" we probably wouldn't be discussing it 2,000 years later.

If God just saved us from sin without our knowing of the awful consequence of it, there would be no repentance, no change of direction in thought or deed.

I'm not sure what your reply has, philosophically, to do with what I've presented.
Sometimes, I am not able to totally represent my thinking in words. Perhaps, I've failed here to get what I mean across to you.
Sincerely,
Tetra50

a reply to: tetra50

And, I agree with you totally about the losing side had it right, and that only supports my thesis, here, sadly…..as I would love to have faith more than anything……..

Perhaps I could help then...

What are you issues with the gospels?

Many times the things you read need a deeper understanding of what Jesus taught...

The gospels are not books one can just skim over and grasp in their entirety... I've been studying them for over 10 years and I still learn new things all the time... They have many layers of understanding... and the more you read them the more you will understand... they speak to the reader unlike any other book

a reply to: chr0naut
What kind of sacrifice is it to a supposed god, or god/son of god if they are supposed to live forever in the heaven above?
Could not Jesus rematerialize if a god made it so?

Therefore if it did really happen, no real sacrifice was made, nothing was lost.

The Aztecs tore out peoples hearts as a sacrifice to please something they did not understand (a god) they were pretty foolish weren't they.

And what is YahWeh's fascination with BBQ's anyway?
"I'll have mine well done"

Look, this short time on earth is a learning experience. Be careful to put to much importance on your feelings about what this life should be. You are not your body. You are a soul that's currently occupying a body. This earthly word is ruled by Satan. Keep Jesus and His teachings close and do unto others...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: tetra50

And, I agree with you totally about the losing side had it right, and that only supports my thesis, here, sadly…..as I would love to have faith more than anything……..

Perhaps I could help then...

What are you issues with the gospels?

Many times the things you read need a deeper understanding of what Jesus taught...

The gospels are not books one can just skim over and grasp in their entirety... I've been studying them for over 10 years and I still learn new things all the time... They have many layers of understanding... and the more you read them the more you will understand... they speak to the reader unlike any other book

I find your caring about my opinion extremely touching….
But, have I not showed what I am struggling with through what I've quoted and proposed so far?

Perhaps, I should rephrase what I've said to make it more clear?

The notion of sacrifice, under the conditions of what we've been given to read as the Word……and watching what transpired through that in "real life…."
Tetra

a reply to: Toadmund

Yes, Toadmund, I agree with what you've pointed out….but it's different from what I'm saying…
For what I'm saying is: sacrifice, inherently, is to get us used to the idea we should give our lives over or FOR someone or something else, which may or may not be deserving of that, if at all, for the notion of our own salvation…..
And the point is, why is our salvation based upon dying or suffering for crimes/sins which were not ours , to begin with?
What does that beget, in this augmented reality world, where anything can be faked, any reality is up to a vote, and then made real?

Another question: if it is an augmented reality, holographic world, where the "truth" is relative or even voted upon and then made "real," then sacrifice is just about culling, no?
Thanks for your response….
Tetra

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: tetra50

And, I agree with you totally about the losing side had it right, and that only supports my thesis, here, sadly…..as I would love to have faith more than anything……..

Perhaps I could help then...

What are you issues with the gospels?

Many times the things you read need a deeper understanding of what Jesus taught...

The gospels are not books one can just skim over and grasp in their entirety... I've been studying them for over 10 years and I still learn new things all the time... They have many layers of understanding... and the more you read them the more you will understand... they speak to the reader unlike any other book

I find your caring about my opinion extremely touching….
But, have I not showed what I am struggling with through what I've quoted and proposed so far?

Perhaps, I should rephrase what I've said to make it more clear?

The notion of sacrifice, under the conditions of what we've been given to read as the Word……and watching what transpired through that in "real life…."
Tetra

Did you notice Jesus did not want to die while reading the gospels per chance?

Jesus death was turned into a so called "sacrifice" by the early church... John changed the date of his execution in his gospel to correspond to the Passover lamb sacrifice... It wasn't his death that was important, despite what Christians will tell you... it was his life that was important... what he taught and how he led said life...

The sacrifice Jesus taught was supposed to come from within... To give up your needs for the needs of others...

Though, I wouldn't take the people of this world as any example of what God wants from us... This world is a mess, and it always have been... and for the most part the religions of the world only make things worse...

a reply to: Akragon
Yes, I noticed, and I would think that inherent in what I am proposing…..for he should not have suffered, nor should we…for what is proposed in those gospels.

The sacrifice Jesus taught was supposed to come from within... To give up your needs for the needs of others...

Though, I wouldn't take the people of this world as any example of what God wants from us... This world is a mess, and it always have been... and for the most part the religions of the world only make things worse...
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

But what you've written here is encapsulated by these words, to me…….

supposed to come from within, to give up your needs for the needs of others……
and then, what you go on to recognize…which, i think, we all recognize, which brings us to the circle of questions I've raised here…


Why is it such a mess? My God, why have you forsaken us?
Tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Its a mess because no one cares... Most people would step on someone who actually needed help, wander off and get their coffee and the local starbucks, and continue on with their day without another thought...

No one gives a F*** about anyone but themselves... and its always been that way...

Ironically I just wrote a thread on this very thing... it seems I was meant to talk to you

I never knew you...

originally posted by: Toadmund
a reply to: chr0naut
What kind of sacrifice is it to a supposed god, or god/son of god if they are supposed to live forever in the heaven above?
Could not Jesus rematerialize if a god made it so?

Therefore if it did really happen, no real sacrifice was made, nothing was lost.

The Aztecs tore out peoples hearts as a sacrifice to please something they did not understand (a god) they were pretty foolish weren't they.

And what is YahWeh's fascination with BBQ's anyway?
"I'll have mine well done"

Jesus lived 33 years as a human being.

The Bible nowhere makes a claim that He went back to being God after He rose.

The Bible specifically said he is the first born of the redeemed and our brother. He may still be as He was when he rose. A physical human being, living forever in heaven and an example of what we could be.

It certainly puts a different slant on things if the sacrifice was before He was born rather than when He died.

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: Toadmund

Yes, Toadmund, I agree with what you've pointed out….but it's different from what I'm saying…
For what I'm saying is: sacrifice, inherently, is to get us used to the idea we should give our lives over or FOR someone or something else, which may or may not be deserving of that, if at all, for the notion of our own salvation…..
And the point is, why is our salvation based upon dying or suffering for crimes/sins which were not ours , to begin with?
What does that beget,
Tetra

It begets us dead!

I understrand ultimately what you are saying, that it was more or less a play put on to teach us.

I read much of the OT as well and the more I read, the more I said to myself 'This makes no sense' or things like 'Oh COME ON!' then you read more and then put down the bible and say.
'How can I believe this stuff'

At some point you must let go. No afterlife in heaven can be depressing indeed.

The only hope I have with metaphysical things is when I believed I saw a ghost many years ago (my grandfather? ) but then again that would be a mystery of the universe and subatomic particles, not neccesarily generated by the influence of a god.