The bible is the bait and hook the "devil" uses to get you.

originally posted by: lupodigubbio

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: adjensen

All other debates on the matter aside, Elijah never died, so he couldn't have been reincarnated into the person of John the Baptist (who directly rejected claims that he was Elijah, as well.)

Do you have scripture that confirms that Elijah's flesh survived the ride in the "Chariot of Fire" said to have "taken" him?

Sure I will take you up on that. Elijah is in a state of transfiguration. As you know Christ transfigured with Him for a moment and then resumed His natural state. Now there is a whole discussion here but to simply answer your question yes the flesh survives this condition, a temporary suspension of the natural deterioration of the body.

And by "temporary" you mean thousands of years... ookayyy

A transfiguration is not an extended or permanent condition but a brief state where the temporary and the eternal meet and the body changes appearance. Also, only Christ transfigured during that narrative...Elijah and Moses did not...they just appeared as witnesses. One had died long ago, the other was taken, but this doesn't mean he didn't die. They were apparitions.

Nope. Wrong. Jesus only temporarily took on the state of transfiguration to "fulfill the law and the prophets". Moses and Elijah were not apparitions but real and in transfiguration.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: lupodigubbio

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: adjensen

All other debates on the matter aside, Elijah never died, so he couldn't have been reincarnated into the person of John the Baptist (who directly rejected claims that he was Elijah, as well.)

Do you have scripture that confirms that Elijah's flesh survived the ride in the "Chariot of Fire" said to have "taken" him?

Sure I will take you up on that. Elijah is in a state of transfiguration. As you know Christ transfigured with Him for a moment and then resumed His natural state. Now there is a whole discussion here but to simply answer your question yes the flesh survives this condition, a temporary suspension of the natural deterioration of the body.

And by "temporary" you mean thousands of years... ookayyy

A transfiguration is not an extended or permanent condition but a brief state where the temporary and the eternal meet and the body changes appearance. Also, only Christ transfigured during that narrative...Elijah and Moses did not...they just appeared as witnesses. One had died long ago, the other was taken, but this doesn't mean he didn't die. They were apparitions.

Nope. Wrong. Jesus only temporarily took on the state of transfiguration to "fulfill the law and the prophets". Moses and Elijah were not apparitions but real and in transfiguration.

So the dead (moses) was also transfigured? I was under the impression only the physical body could go through the transfiguration process. Don't you mean in his spiritual body perhaps? I don't know man, I feel like you're all over the place on this one. At least provide some scripture to back up your claims. Particularly the one where it states what happened to Elijah after he was taken.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I hope they would but having followed ATS for many years , all I can say is "I wonder"

a reply to: imod02

You wonder? Did you click the link I provided? It's a thread about the Qu'ran being corrupt that came out in August of last year, is largely flagged and still open for discussion. It is literally proof of what you are asking. How can you still be unsure about ATS' stance on this issue?

a reply to: Logarock

Sure I will take you up on that. Elijah is in a state of transfiguration. As you know Christ transfigured with Him for a moment and then resumed His natural state. Now there is a whole discussion here but to simply answer your question yes the flesh survives this condition, a temporary suspension of the natural deterioration of the body.

Everyone has a theory and an opinion. Do you have scripture that confirms that Elijah's flesh survived the ride in the "Chariot of Fire" said to have "taken" him?

The Bible NEVER makes the claim that Elijah didn't die. As a matter of fact, after the story of his abduction, there's a story of a letter being written by Elijah and delivered to one shaken king! Maybe he just went for ride, and was dropped back off again?

lupodigubbio, earlier in the thread I asked you if Satan could cast out Satan?

Matthew

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

The "god" in the bible was/is a Sumerian El. En.lil/Yahweh/Apollo was the ruler of the Semitic tribes. That was his domain. He did not create the Earth Adam. It was his half brother En.ki/E.a/Ptah/Poseidon that crafted the first Lulu (mixed one). He also got a great assist from his half sister Nin.hur.sag (She of the stony foothills). The problem with the bible is that its not the oldest telling of these stories. The Sumerian cuneiform tablets are like the bible decoded. "Let Us create man in Our image, after Our likeness. The original FEMALE CREATRIX was hidden from us long ago. That's right, Khod ( from Indo-European languages) was originally a female deity. SHE only became male later on due to the subversion of men. Almost all ancient cultures speak of a Cosmic Mother. Why do you think all the religious leaders wear cloaks and hoods? It represents the hidden Feminine.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: randyvs
IF Christianity ever becomes punishable by death... and I find it highly unlikely that will ever happen...

It will only be because of What Christians have turned the religion into and nothing more...

Tolerance is preached but not practiced In the ranks of said religion... And the only ones to blame for it is its adherents

You must not be paying attention, being a Christian in the past was punishable by death and in the present in certain societies.

nationalinterest.org...
converting to Christianity from Islam, a charge punishable by death.

Tolerance is preached but not practiced In the ranks of said religion

The only intolerance I have seen on ATS is the intolerance of the Christian bashers.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

You must not be paying attention, being a Christian in the past was punishable by death and in the present in certain societies.

Oh no, I pay attention Storm. I was speaking in terms that AK is
familiar with from hence myself. A world wide death sentence
for Christians. So his retort is even correct in those terms.
But the future may prove him wrong as we Christians can see.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

You must not be paying attention, being a Christian in the past was punishable by death and in the present in certain societies.

Perhaps you missed the following 1900 or so years of Christians murdering each other and everyone else too!

originally posted by: imod02
I wonder if ATS would allow a post like this if it attacked muslems and there holy book in the same way this attacks the bible and christians

I have had several discussion on Sunni salafism being controlled by Saudi Arabia and the wahhabi fundamentalistic sect and the difference between Sunni, Shia and Sufi. There are a couple of Muslims on ATS that will never respond to anything I say about Islam since I am too questioning of it being the true word of god. I also question parts of the Bible and especially how Paul is contradicting Jesus.

I love Jesus and Rumi for their message, but see both "Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim" and Paul as having a lesser understanding of what they are saying and since they do not from my point of view, know enough to teach me I go to those who know what they are talking about. Why should I follow the blind when I can follow those who can see the bigger picture? Buddha and Nanak seem to be spot on also in their understanding on duality.

You should also look at Flyersfan posts since she is very outspoken when it comes to both Christian faith and Islam.

There is a lot of questioning of Islam if you look for it on ATS

a reply to: LittleByLittle

You will never get a decent response from a Sunni Muslim, when they are not discrediting religious texts they are like a delusional Christian, they take everything literally and have a very hard time with critical spiritual thinking. If Islam told them a flying Orca Whale was coming in the future, they would have their eyes on the sky everyday waiting for one to arrive where a Shia Muslim understands that the flying Orca whale is nothing more than a Symbol of something else and shouldn't be taken literally. There is more to the religion than what is read and the same can be said for all the religions. Without reflective spiritual thinking, you will never get an answer though.

a reply to: Logarock

Now in all seriousness if you don't understand those basic differences why are you even commenting? You don't even understand the differences of these basic issues and yet are engaging in criticism?

Excuse me?

In all seriousness, I know exactly what the 'basic differences are', and I am commenting because I have a right to do so, whether you like it or not.

The revivification of corpses is asinine. The concept of reincarnation is far, far older than "Christianity" - and your 'hellfire and brimstone' fear-mongering and coercion is simply the self-loathing and control that fundamentalist sects push onto people. To keep them ashamed.

I don't give a rat's ass what the Nicene Council (a bunch of MEN) decided...they were called to stop bickering (for all the good that did). The concept of reincarnation - being REBORN via the WOMB, remains alive and well.

If YOU can't understand that it predates your "Christ", that Jesus was a Jew, an Essene, and Jews believed in the concept, then why are you responding to me?

Do you think I'm a child? A damned pagan? A filthy hippy? An uneducated bumpkin?
I'm a middle-aged Baby Boomer who has been aware of what you condescending, smug "Christians" call "New Age Woowoo" for over 4 decades. I was raised a Nicene-parrot. I left it as soon as I figured out what a crock it was and that I was 'lying' when I recited it.

Jeez, dude. Let me hold the reins while you dismount your high holy horse...
*lets the horse loose and urges it away at a gallop*

now, look me in the eyes.

There. NOW - do you have anything else to insult me with?

Corpses will not be raised back to their former bodies. There is ample proof of reincarnation. There is NO PROOF of Elijah never having died, or of long-dead 'saints' being restored to their original 'bodies. And Jesus is not "coming back riding on a cloud".

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I thought reincarnation was an ancient Egyptian concept?

a reply to: DarknStormy

Its probably even older than that.
And it's definitely part of the mythology that the Christians usurped and tried to change around in order to control people.
The origins of it are lost in time now, but Eastern thought has held to is since long before Jesus. (As if he didn't teach it - which he did).

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

This is one of those things which I think could of been changed to fit the Roman agenda. Ancient Egyptians were Sun Worshippers and I would say the Roman Pagans could fall under the same banner. Maybe it was them that introduced the reincarnation thing to Christianity? But at the same time I'm not saying it's correct either.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

This is one of those things which I think could of been changed to fit the Roman agenda. Ancient Egyptians were Sun Worshippers and I would say the Roman Pagans could fall under the same banner. Maybe it was them that introduced the reincarnation thing to Christianity? But at the same time I'm not saying it's correct either.

The Romans are the ones who pushed the current dogma of Christianity. So it is more likely that reincarnation was the accepted part of Christianity first, then the Romans changed it to fit their needs.

a reply to: DarknStormy

The main documented sources are Eastern philosophy, and ancient Greece. Plato. Pythagoras. Those guys.
Anyone who thinks they did not influence the Middle-Eastern religions is mistaken. And anyone who thinks the Nicene Council did not suppress it is, well, ignorant. Willfully so, in my opinion.

Can I prove it exists? No. But considering that over a billion people worldwide accept it, I'd say it should not be discarded as a possibility.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

To me reincarnation has more merit in our world than anything else. So an example could be Jesus the incarnate of God. It doesn't mean he is God but he walked in the footsteps of what was taught through the Bible to the last word. The lamas of Buddhism is another example. I agree with you, I believe that the Romans turned him into something which he never was especially when it comes to the resurrection and such.

The idea that they have pushed is that he died and reincarnated into his former self and logically speaking that is impossible. The only way he could be reincarnated is if someone walks in his footsteps to the very word. The earliest accounts of Christianity don't mention these happenings either.