The bible is the bait and hook the "devil" uses to get you.

a reply to: Logarock

Matthew 11
13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

How could John be Elijah if not through reincarnation? If Elijah's spirit was within John, Elijah's spirit was transferred into another body. That's the definition of reincarnation.

Eternal life is achieved through reincarnation. No matter how many times you die, you will always be reincarnated into another body somewhere within this universe.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Logarock

Matthew 11
13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

How could John be Elijah if not through reincarnation? If Elijah's spirit was within John, Elijah's spirit was transferred into another body. That's the definition of reincarnation.

Eternal life is achieved through reincarnation. No matter how many times you die, you will always be reincarnated into another body somewhere within this universe.

Even if what you say about reincarnation is true this passage wouldn't prove it.

John was a type of Elijah. John came in the sprit of Elijah not Elijah's actual reincarnated sprit. John was a type at Jesus first coming and the real Elijah will come before Christ's 2nd coming.

The statement that Elijah will come (at the second coming) and has already come (John in the spirit of Elijah at the first coming) is self explanatory if confusing to some. Jesus was talking about two events or the first and second advent.

a reply to: Logarock

Jesus says "this IS Elijah", the explanation you have only muddies the water. The simplest explanation is that John was Elijah, exactly as Jesus says.

Occam's razor.

The truth is not complicated, Christian theology is extremely complicated and convoluted.

Matthew 11
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Christian theology is neither easy nor light.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Logarock

Jesus says "this IS Elijah", the explanation you have only muddies the water. The simplest explanation is that John was Elijah, exactly as Jesus says.

Occam's razor.

The truth is not complicated, Christian theology is extremely complicated and convoluted.

What muddies the water is that this one passage is being used here as a certain evidence of reincarnation and yet Jesus did not teach about life and death in this regard anywhere. He didn't even say of Himself that He came in the sprit of some former great person. He told none of His disciples that they came in the sprit of any former person. If He were trying to literally identify John as Elijah why is no one else identified as a former person?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1


He said His yoke was easy and lite in comparison to the yoke of the law. He wasn't commentating on the nature of christian theology. Christianity does contain some esoteric matter. A student will at least have to put their thinking cap on. Its not all as easy to understand as a third grade reading primer.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: [post=17850033]Logarock[/post

How could John be Elijah if not through reincarnation? If Elijah's spirit was within John, Elijah's spirit was transferred into another body. That's the definition of reincarnation.

Elijah the Tishbite did not die, but rather was risen up on chariots of fire, if one was to believe the Bible. He was also a really incredible dude, with the ability to call down fire from heaven. And one of my favorite parts of the Bible:

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave.

There is a beautiful, brilliant message being confessed in this, without feeling the need to explain Itself.

As far as Micah, there is a reference to a Elijah type figure. One who goes before, whom the Lord you seek goes to his temple, which is thought to have been John when he baptized Yeshua. This is commented in Luke I believe, as being in the power and spirit of Elijah. Then Elijah is named personally in Malachi where he comes before the Day of the Lord. These are commonly confused. John the Baptist was questioned, probably because of this same confusion, and responded that he was not Elijah. Also notice that Mathew has Yeshua saying "the Elijah" rather then Elijah. He is most likely referencing the figure in Micah, not in Malachi. But little things like this are left in the Bible to be confusing to people on purpose. It actually says something to this directly. It's for people who would look for something to stumble upon to find something to stumble upon. If your heart is looking for salvation in humility then you find an uplifting salvation.

When one looks with a humble heart and a mind to understand, one sees a brilliant method of speaking directly to your heart/soul to redeem and break the shackles of sin which we have become bound with. When one looks with a arrogant, mocking posture you find things which betray wisdom and inspire foolishness. This is not on accident and to me is one of the amazing, unexplainable things that occur in the words written long ago. It betrays its hidden brilliance for those desiring of truth to perceive. There is clearly something more intelligent at work here, but that will always stay hidden from those who approach it wrongly. I know that to someone who doesn't believe this might seem like a cop out. But to me, it is a perfection of all trades with an unmatched understanding of the human condition. The uplifting of the downtrodden at the same time the arrogant are humbled. All with the same words, unchanged. All so that no man might hold himself before the Lord in arrogance and boasting.Once you start to see His brilliance, you cannot see anything else.

a reply to: pleasethink

Yea and John did not come calling fire down from heaven. In fact Jesus scolded His disciples for wanting to do just that. Elijah will however on his return go old school.

a reply to: lupodigubbio

Duality is a bitch.

It might even be a bigger bitch than karma at the end of the day. Especially in a world/reality that allows free will.

But no one ever said it would be easy...

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Logarock

Christian theology is neither easy nor light.

Also you quoted it properly the first time, then quoted Him improperly to support your argument. He did not say "This is Elijah" He said "this is the Elijah"

In regards to your above comment, I would like to demonstrate. If one is burdened by sin, meaning constantly worrying about if my sin will defile me, sacrificing animals every time I sin, etc. it becomes a burden where more time is spent worrying about sinning then becoming close to G-d. I myself had a huge drug problem which was like a cycle, I would get high all night, then feel terrible, and because I felt terrible go get high again repeat repeat. It was this constant spiral of feeling bad about doing wrong followed by doing wrong that perpetuated this problem. When He is saying His yoke is light, He is meaning(imo) that He is removing this burden from your shoulders that way you might concentrate on what was more important(seeking G-d). That is why sin is constantly referred to as shackling you in a slavery sense.

He never said the law was wrong, but said to follow it. To write it on your heart. It was the removal of your sin that allowed for communion with the Lord. I believe the Bible states G-d holds you up to look into your eye. There is an interesting symbolism there. Not as an authority per say, but as a Father. To set it back as it was in the beginning. The Law is still important. Just the love is more important, because with the love and fear of G-d, the law begins to be respected and honored, making you righteous in His sight. Restoring your place amongst His children and defeating the penalty of death.

a reply to: Logarock

That is my interpretation of the still small voice. He was saying something beautiful to Elijah without saying anything at all. Elijah had the mindset of kill them all and start over. G-d was showing Him how He works, in a beautiful way. The still small voice.

Even one of the most respected prophets in the history of mankind was humbled before the Lord. Aside from Yeshua, he is my favorite person to ever live. John was great, but Elijah's story spoke directly to my heart.

originally posted by: pleasethink
a reply to: Logarock

That is my interpretation of the still small voice. He was saying something beautiful to Elijah without saying anything at all. Elijah had the mindset of kill them all and start over. G-d was showing Him how He works, in a beautiful way. The still small voice.

Even one of the most respected prophets in the history of mankind was humbled before the Lord. Aside from Yeshua, he is my favorite person to ever live. John was great, but Elijah's story spoke directly to my heart.

It always struck me as comical how God came with thunder and lightning blasting the place and then whispers to the guy. Speak softly but carry a big stick. I guess one wouldn't have to raise their voice much with an intro like that. I always though that God was trying to tell the man that He understood how he felt. He delivered Israle with a strong hand and many mighty works in Egypt and while there was fire and thunder on the mountain with Moses they "rose up to play".

originally posted by: pleasethink
a reply to: lupodigubbio

I believe the points I made are valid, and you haven't really refuted them, you just pointed at them and said "That's stupid" (generalization) along with insulting me personally and what I believe in. Can I get some of that enlightenment you possess? It's obviously better than everyone else's. Your character and words testify.

And Satan and the devil are pretty much one and the same. If I was to ask one hundred random people on the street "Who is Satan?" at least 90% would answer "the devil". So am I also incorrect in using that name instead of the devil? Is this another area where you will teach me about how delusional I am?

And say what you want about America, any nation that a woman can paint art with her period blood is obviously a little more free then it should be, IMO. That's probably why we lead the world in porn etc etc. But to call it unfree is a little ludicrous just because we possess laws. I would go further and say no one is truly free, unless they are set free by G-d, but oooooohhhhhhh that would stir the poop storm wouldn't it? I've known a lot of people that follow masonry and other esoteric gnostic leaning teachings. I've also been around a lot of christians. I like the christians better. They love more. And are kinder. And it's not a invite only operation of elitists who love to stroke each others egos and talk about how "enlightened" they are and how "stupid" everyone else is. I was tested at 148 IQ. I scored an 80 on my ASVAB out of a possible 99. For those in the Armed Services, they know this test also tests mechanical aptitude as well as academic. I scored in the top 95% of all graduating seniors in the US in my GED on all five sections. My TABE was 12.9 across the board(highest you can go boyo). All while dropping out of high school at 15 in the ninth grade. My cousins are charter members of Mensa. And Yeshua has saved my life and I see the work His Father did all around me. Intelligence never lead me to wisdom. But G-d did. And I didn't even deserve it, as I am a shameful creature. What a glorious G-d is He! Thank you for reminding me how great He truly is.

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

Explaining yours and your relative's alleged intellectual merits to me suggests deep insecurity and it gives the debate an emotional tone that I personally feel is not very conducive to mutual understanding. I get it, you feel offended or threatened by heretics. You know what though, you need to get a thicker skin if you come into the business of defending your faith, especially in a public internet forum. You keep labeling America as free and I don't think there is much I can say to convince you otherwise; I will remain flabbergasted while gazing at the depths of your denial.

then you go around and shock me even more with this....fallacy?

"And Satan and the devil are pretty much one and the same. If I was to ask one hundred random people on the street "Who is Satan?" at least 90% would answer "the devil". So am I also incorrect in using that name instead of the devil? Is this another area where you will teach me about how delusional I am? "

My response to you is: Argumentum ad populum
It is clearly fallacious and quite naive to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. This kind of simplistic answers will not give you the upper hand, on the contrary, I might not be inclined to reply to you anymore.

I don't call Satan the devil because, well, I don't think that's the right name. certainly not considering this thread.

Thanks for trying.

a reply to: pleasethink
a reply to: Logarock

I am not using the Bible to prove that reincarnation is true. I'm using it to prove that reincarnation was a popular belief system, and, that even the apostles and the pharisees believed in.

Matthew 11
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Now, we can debate what the definition of "IS" is, or why some translations switched the word "IS" to "THE". And we debate what the word "THE" means!

But, no matter, you have to do some pretty convoluted twisting and contorting to convince yourself that this scripture doesn't refer to reincarnation.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: pleasethink
a reply to: Logarock

I am not using the Bible to prove that reincarnation is true. I'm using it to prove that reincarnation was a popular belief system, and, that even the apostles and the pharisees believed in.

Matthew 11
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Now, we can debate what the definition of "IS" is, or why some translations switched the word "IS" to "THE". And we debate what the word "THE" means!

But, no matter, you have to do some pretty convoluted twisting and contorting to convince yourself that this scripture doesn't refer to reincarnation.

Not really. This is a manner of speaking. Like saying "this is Hector reborn" because of great deeds on the battlefield. Whats convoluted is trying to hinge the whole bible teaches reincarnation idea on the word, one word "is".

a reply to: Logarock

Whats convoluted is trying to hinge the whole bible teaches reincarnation idea on the word, one word "is".

That's crap, and you know it.

We have collectively shown you several formidable studies and research items, as well as Biblical statements, that show that it is much, much larger than 'the one word "is".'

The Jews believed in it.
Please.

You know, if you want to go solely from the Bible, then you might as well just declare you are writing enthusiastic "fan-fiction" , and no outside research or findings or oppositional research and findings are allowed.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs


Show and demonstrate to a reasonable conclusiveness, with out any contradictions to other thing Jesus said, that Jesus taught reincarnation as a reality in his His doctrine and how these examples are essentially the same as eastern reincarnation philosophy.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: pleasethink
a reply to: Logarock

I am not using the Bible to prove that reincarnation is true. I'm using it to prove that reincarnation was a popular belief system, and, that even the apostles and the pharisees believed in.

Demonstrate, if it were an important belief system, the apostles demonstrated this in their writings.

a reply to: Logarock

with out any contradictions to other thing Jesus said, that Jesus taught reincarnation as a reality in his His doctrine and how these examples are essentially the same as eastern reincarnation philosophy.

You just aren't paying attention, are you??

The Bible is chock-full of contradictions, and I've no clue what "version" you are reading. If you know anything at all about Eastern reincarnation philosophy, you would know that the Jews before "Jesus" believed it. And many still do.

And anyway, no matter what version (of the Bible) it is that you wave around, nothing of what is in it can be proven a "reality."

The reality is that according to your holy text, he was 'missing' from preteen to 30. Where was he? Why didn't anyone know anything about his whereabouts? He spoke mostly in parables. Why is that? Why did he never write down anything HIMSELF? (That we know of.)

He said 'you must be born again.' Point blank. As in "period. End of statement."
And sorry, but the story of the 'resurrection' is just, well, incredible. Fantastic. As in "NOTcredible", and "FANTAStic (a fantasy-like idea)".

Like has been said: Occam's razor.

But, it's clear I'm offending your sensibilities and bringing up things you have no intention of looking at, or into, further than your rigid reading of the Bible version to which you adhere. I don't want to bring your wrath down on me further.

Honestly, I'll leave you to your anger and angst. It doesn't make that much difference to me, to be honest, as long as you aren't teaching little kids they are worthless no-hopers who will never measure up to whatever arbitrary standards you all want to 'impose' on them. Because, you know, you can use the Bible to tear people down all day long....

if that's what blows your hair back.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs


See you cant demonstrate it. Just change the subject.

And I leave you to yours.

a reply to: Logarock

Demonstrate, if it were an important belief system, the apostles demonstrated this in their writings.

What? It's already been demonstrated to you by the quotes from the Bible that have been provided.