If it's crucial for our salvation, why doesn't god give us proof of his existence constantly?

originally posted by: ScientiaFortisDefendit
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I go to church every week and don't disagree, but how does one explain why the Bible is full of accounts of people speaking with God directly? What happened in the millennia since then? Was the 'veil' between this world and the next nonexistent, or much thinner? Did God decide to stop talking to people at some point? So far no one has addressed this question to my satisfaction.

How about when the cake is baking in the oven, and you shouldn't open the door until it's done? Or the farmer, planting crops, doesn't keep digging up the produce to see how it is growing, but sits back waiting patiently until the crop has matured and is ready for harvesting?

I believe that God is waiting for us to complete multiplying and then ripening for harvesting. In the meantime we run around like headless chooks, arguing about religion and having many different religions and denominations, obviously none of which have the means to communicate directly with God.

As He said, we 'worship Him in vain, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men' and 'He doesn't/can't hear sinners' - hence the last two thousand years of silence.

Going by the Bible, only one generation is to be saved and it is the generation that faces the Antichrist, refusing to worship his image or to accept his mark, that will be washed in the sacrificial Blood of the Lamb by taking up their own crosses / execution stakes and following the Son, to become priests of God and the Lamb.

This is the same generation that will have direct, personal contact with God, because they will all be taught by Him about His Ways. I have personal experience of this, and this is the source of all the information I have posted at ATS and elsewhere.

a reply to: Maigret

'He doesn't/can't hear sinners'

Doesn't that perpetuate it? The more he doesn't/can't listen to sinners, the less he is able to answer them, the more ignorant they remain, the more they sin, ad infinitum.

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: Antigod

The Father in heaven does not willingly afflict the children of men. Man suffers, first, from the accidents of time and the imperfections of the evil of an immature physical existence. Next, he suffers the inexorable consequences of sin — the transgression of the laws of life and light. And finally, man reaps the harvest of his own iniquitous persistence in rebellion against the righteous rule of heaven on earth. But man’s miseries are not a personal visitation of divine judgment. Man can, and will, do much to lessen his temporal sufferings.

Well thats waffle.

So let me get this right... you've got no actual physical proof for god or that this diety has ever given us laws etc, but you insist you know what his laws are?

I think that's what bothers me, insisting you have all the answers with absolutely no evidence to support your claims,

Proof! It's all around you! Do you really, honestly believe that everything happened by chance? There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of intelligent design. Even within our own cells are bio-machines that could not have evolved by accident they were designed for their specific duty.

www.youtube.com... ...this is a video on DNA replication.

Make no mistake though, evolution is God's creative technique in time and space. It would be better called Progressive Evolution. It's an ingenious way to ensure that life unfolds in such a way as to adapt it to the given planets environment. It is intelligently controlled and fostered until a creature of will dignity develops. Life is always purposeful and never accidental

a reply to: UB2120

I would prefer to have a father in contrast to just playing with his toys. But hey, I'm not the one who sold my soul to him, so I guess that's your problem.

a reply to: bigman88

The fact is, that God has decided to chill out a bit, and let people save themselves through Jesus Christ. The ordinances that he had practiced in order to appease him after sinning has been lifted, and people are allowed to work back into his good grace without any reprimand form the past.

"Chill out"?
I don't think so, and it just sounds to me like something influenced by Dispensationalist cult philosophy.
There is no mention in the New Testament that the Old Testament sacrifices and ceremonial laws had any validity ever.
Rather than "chilling out", I would say it is people realizing the past error in the appreciation of God's true nature.
Jesus was not carrying out a ritual.
Jesus was not walking through a ceremony.
Jesus was living a form of true righteousness that exists outside of the old written Mosaic Law.

a reply to: Antigod

Even if God gave you proof of his existence, that wouldn't bring salvation. Even Satan knows God according to the Bible, he 'fell from the heavens', but Satan is not saved.


Some people say that if you believe that Jesus is the son of God who came back to life and died for the sins of the world, that is what makes you a Christian, but if that's the case even Satan is a Christian since he witnessed these things and know that they are true since he saw it as he roamed the Earth fallen from Heaven.

Salvation comes from a good heart (meaning good intentions - intentions without selfishness or to harm others), then that is how you glorify The Father in heaven and become children of Him (Luke 6:36).

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Maigret

'He doesn't/can't hear sinners'

Doesn't that perpetuate it? The more he doesn't/can't listen to sinners, the less he is able to answer them, the more ignorant they remain, the more they sin, ad infinitum.

Yes, good point! But for the last 2,000 odd years, we've been in the oven of this world, sinning away. Now, this one generation will receive that promised salvation. However, you have to understand what God means by salvation...

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice , and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Note: I've highlighted the main points in bold.

Now compare those verses with: Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed them to God by thy Blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:10 And hast made them unto our God a kingdom of priests: and they shall reign on the earth.

Do you see the purpose of the blood sacrifice of the Son? And who it was for?

Also read Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kin, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Note that there is no distinction between tribes, background, male or female, etc.)

Revelation 7:14 explains who this great multitude is: Rev 7:14 'And I said unto him, Sir, thou know. And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His Temple: and He that sits on the throne shall dwell among them".'

If you follow up with Revelation 20:-6, you will see exactly who become the priests of God and the Lamb.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua, and for the Word of God, and which had NOT worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of the Messiah, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Proofing changes and emphases are mine.)

No generation before us has faced the Beast/Antichrist/Desolator/Little Horn/Eighth Head... so they have not had the chance of salvation and they will all be 'judged on their works'. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

a reply to: Maigret

Do you see the purpose of the blood sacrifice of the Son? And who it was for?

Except that there isn't a such thing as a "blood sacrifice" in the Bible.
Jesus' personal sacrifice was leaving Heaven and the company of his father, to come to this world to be persecuted and killed for telling the truth.
God's sacrifice was in giving His son over to the forces of evil to do what they would to him.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Maigret

Do you see the purpose of the blood sacrifice of the Son? And who it was for?

Except that there isn't a such thing as a "blood sacrifice" in the Bible.
Jesus' personal sacrifice was leaving Heaven and the company of his father, to come to this world to be persecuted and killed for telling the truth.
God's sacrifice was in giving His son over to the forces of evil to do what they would to him.

That is your unsourced version.

a reply to: Maigret

That is your unsourced version.

My source is the Bible.
I don't know what your source is other than YouTube videos.
You believe in a thing called a "blood sacrifice" even though there isn't anything described that way in the Bible.

What I mentioned are concepts in the Bible, where you can start at John 3:16a, which talks about God's sacrifice of His son.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son . . .

Romans 8:32a
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all . . .

Romans 4:25a
He was delivered over to death for our sins . . .

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

As for Jesus' sacrifice,
Philippians 2
. . . have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

originally posted by: UB2120

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: Antigod

The Father in heaven does not willingly afflict the children of men. Man suffers, first, from the accidents of time and the imperfections of the evil of an immature physical existence. Next, he suffers the inexorable consequences of sin — the transgression of the laws of life and light. And finally, man reaps the harvest of his own iniquitous persistence in rebellion against the righteous rule of heaven on earth. But man’s miseries are not a personal visitation of divine judgment. Man can, and will, do much to lessen his temporal sufferings.

Well thats waffle.

So let me get this right... you've got no actual physical proof for god or that this diety has ever given us laws etc, but you insist you know what his laws are?

I think that's what bothers me, insisting you have all the answers with absolutely no evidence to support your claims,

Proof! It's all around you! Do you really, honestly believe that everything happened by chance? There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of intelligent design. Even within our own cells are bio-machines that could not have evolved by accident they were designed for their specific duty.

www.youtube.com... ...this is a video on DNA replication.

Make no mistake though, evolution is God's creative technique in time and space. It would be better called Progressive Evolution. It's an ingenious way to ensure that life unfolds in such a way as to adapt it to the given planets environment. It is intelligently controlled and fostered until a creature of will dignity develops. Life is always purposeful and never accidental

That's the religious for you, always seeing the hand of some deity in random events.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Antigod

Even if God gave you proof of his existence, that wouldn't bring salvation. Even Satan knows God according to the Bible, he 'fell from the heavens', but Satan is not saved.


Some people say that if you believe that Jesus is the son of God who came back to life and died for the sins of the world, that is what makes you a Christian, but if that's the case even Satan is a Christian since he witnessed these things and know that they are true since he saw it as he roamed the Earth fallen from Heaven.

Salvation comes from a good heart (meaning good intentions - intentions without selfishness or to harm others), then that is how you glorify The Father in heaven and become children of Him (Luke 6:36).

You are missing the point. How are we supposed to know what set of rules to follow (if any) to be 'saved'. At the moment there is NO informed decision. Whatever religion you end up in seems to be a matter of chance (where you are born).

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: UB2120

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: Antigod

The Father in heaven does not willingly afflict the children of men. Man suffers, first, from the accidents of time and the imperfections of the evil of an immature physical existence. Next, he suffers the inexorable consequences of sin — the transgression of the laws of life and light. And finally, man reaps the harvest of his own iniquitous persistence in rebellion against the righteous rule of heaven on earth. But man’s miseries are not a personal visitation of divine judgment. Man can, and will, do much to lessen his temporal sufferings.

Well thats waffle.

So let me get this right... you've got no actual physical proof for god or that this diety has ever given us laws etc, but you insist you know what his laws are?

I think that's what bothers me, insisting you have all the answers with absolutely no evidence to support your claims,

Proof! It's all around you! Do you really, honestly believe that everything happened by chance? There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of intelligent design. Even within our own cells are bio-machines that could not have evolved by accident they were designed for their specific duty.

www.youtube.com... ...this is a video on DNA replication.

Make no mistake though, evolution is God's creative technique in time and space. It would be better called Progressive Evolution. It's an ingenious way to ensure that life unfolds in such a way as to adapt it to the given planets environment. It is intelligently controlled and fostered until a creature of will dignity develops. Life is always purposeful and never accidental

That's the religious for you, always seeing the hand of some deity in random events.

Enlighten me. How did the bio-machines that replicate DNA evolve? Or the bio-machines that facilitate cell division? Or for that matter, DNA it self? Not to overlook the most amazing feat of all, reproduction? (www.ted.com...) What differentiates a live cell from a dead one? What makes it alive? Physically they are exactly the same.

As I stated before, evolution is real, it is God's creative technique in time/space. We are bio-chemical machines that are nothing more than a vehicle for our true natures which is spirit. You don't have to subscribe to any particular religion to understand that.

What will your argument be once it becomes an everyday fact that intelligent life exists on other planets? They were an accident too? How about when there are scores, hundreds of known species?

originally posted by: UB2120
We are bio-chemical machines that are nothing more than a vehicle for our true natures which is spirit.

Enlighten me. What is spirit?

What will your argument be once it becomes an everyday fact that intelligent life exists on other planets? They were an accident too? How about when there are scores, hundreds of known species?

Seems life may very well be inevitable in the universe, with all the chemical mixtures, galaxies, solar systems and planets in the universe it may well be an unavoidable consequence.

We know life exists, as a fact. Whereas spirit? gods? or anything like that? they so far only exist in peoples imaginations. And until we have a good reason to think those things exist, why wouldn't it be natural to assume life began completely naturally through materialistic means?

a reply to: Prezbo369

Spirit is a level of existence. Since God is spirit you can say that spirit is the true order of being.


Life only springs from pre-existent life and mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind.

Physics and chemistry alone cannot explain how a human being evolved out of the primeval protoplasm of the early seas. The ability to learn, memory and differential response to environment, is the endowment of mind. The laws of physics are not responsive to training; they are immutable and unchanging. The reactions of chemistry are not modified by education; they are uniform and dependable. But mind can profit from experience, can learn from reactive habits of behavior in response to repetition of stimuli.

a reply to: Antigod

You don't even believe earthly things, why on earth would you believe in heavenly things. People have seen and people have told you and still you do not believe and the evidence of people of seeing things are all over and every nation and probably has some kind of that is either dragon in nature or a snake and days of past. Look at the meaning of suoix it means little snake or treacherous snake and look at who else worship the dragon.

originally posted by: UB2120
Spirit is a level of existence.

Existence has levels? how do you know? how many are there? do you have any evidence for this?

Since God is spirit you can say that spirit is the true order of being.

How do you know? do you have any evidence that a god exists?

Life only springs from pre-existent life and mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind.

How do you know? how can you be so sure that life cannot arise via naturalistic means?

Physics and chemistry alone cannot explain how a human being evolved out of the primeval protoplasm of the early seas.

No you need biology to help explain that.

The ability to learn, memory and differential response to environment, is the endowment of mind. The laws of physics are not responsive to training; they are immutable and unchanging. The reactions of chemistry are not modified by education; they are uniform and dependable. But mind can profit from experience, can learn from reactive habits of behavior in response to repetition of stimuli.

Didn't you take any biology classes at school? science is a lot more than physics and chemistry.

Hay, leave God for a minute and look at yourself. What more of a proof you would want from God, than the existence itself. You feel, you think, you interact. Is that not enough my friend? God advices to be humble. So be humble, take this as all that it is, and don't ask for more. It will free your soul(chubbchubb).

originally posted by: Prezbo369

Existence has levels? how do you know? how many are there? do you have any evidence for this?

Yes, life has different levels that it can be manifested on. From the Infinite level to the Finite level. For mortals there are 3 levels. Each level has a growth or development to it. How do I know? It has been revealed to mankind. Do you have any evidence against this?

How do you know? do you have any evidence that a god exists?

What evidence do you have that God does not exist?

How do you know? how can you be so sure that life cannot arise via naturalistic means?

What is the difference between a dead cell and a live one? What is nature to you? What controls nature? Does nature have a consciousness? How does it know what to do and when?

No you need biology to help explain that.

Please, help explain this by using Biology.

Didn't you take any biology classes at school? science is a lot more than physics and chemistry.

Please explain how biology answers the functioning of mind.

originally posted by: UB2120
Yes, life has different levels that it can be manifested on. From the Infinite level to the Finite level. For mortals there are 3 levels. Each level has a growth or development to it. How do I know? It has been revealed to mankind. Do you have any evidence against this?

'It has been revealed to mankind? really? when? where? please provide evidence.

Do you have any evidence against this?

You made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Otherwise why would anyone give your claim the time of day?

What evidence do you have that God does not exist?

Again, your made the claim, you have the burden of proof. If you cannot substantiate your claims then you have no business making them.

What is the difference between a dead cell and a live one? What is nature to you? What controls nature? Does nature have a consciousness? How does it know what to do and when?

Once more, you made the claim that 'Life only springs from pre-existent life and mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind.' and we see once again you're unable to substantiate it. You're sounding a lot like a creationist at this point.

Please, help explain this by using Biology.

I can prove that biology is the field of science you need to understand in order to explain human descent, and not chemistry or physics....

Please explain how biology answers the functioning of mind.

....well I think first you need to understand the very basics of the scientific method and the differences between biology, chemistry and physics.......then maybe you'd be able to begin understanding why it's biology that's required here.