If it's crucial for our salvation, why doesn't god give us proof of his existence constantly?

Well, religious people here, my main issue with the whole god thing is that he seems fine with leaving masses of other religions milling around disseminating information that will get anyone who believes them damned. He (if he existed) could wipe out would be prophets/preachers with information quietly (say, accident or diseases) before they converted anyone to a wrong belief.

Christians... how do you know Islam isn't the one true faith? Muslims... how do you know that Judaism isn't the one true faith? etc etc. Doesn't this worry you?

How can a diety allow other religions to thrive when his is the true one and believing in the others leads to damnation.

(FYI, technically there is no 'hell' in the older translations of the bible, just 'the grave', which some ghosts moaned about being dragged out of).

As to the analogy of loving someone but they don't know you are there ... how are they supposed to love you if they don't know you exist? Surely the first step is making your presence known?

You have to know someone to have faith in them.

Guy who said giant skeletons were discovered... physical anthroplogy degree here. No they haven't. There have been lots of BS claims and claimed giant remains that never materialize in the flesh when it comes time to be examined. ALL HOAXES.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Because if he didn't care enough to be honest with me about who he was, then I don't care to know him anyway. I don't like double standards, and I definitely don't like being lied to. And a lie by omission is still a lie.

Maybe saying "I'm God" would be too inaccurate of a description to be strictly honest.
What is really out there I would imagine defies human description.

"I am what some people call God. I am the sole reason for existence, the sum totality of truth and being, the first cause and the final conclusion. I am the King of Kings, and I understand you have some questions for me. Let's have a cup of coffee while we discuss our relationship."

At that point, I would obligingly accept a cup of coffee and listen to what he has to say. At that point, there are literally millions of ways in which he could demonstrate the veracity of his identity. The only obstacle is whether he's willing to convince me. It wouldn't take much - I'm not asking him to turn the sun blue or make an extra arm sprout from my torso. Well, maybe the extra arm bit. That might be cool haha. But seriously, he could read my thoughts verbatim out loud, invite me to pick a location and write five minutes worth of predictions concerning what I would observe at that location in the time it takes to get there, physically turn himself into anything I ask in a blink of an eye. The sort of things that are literally impossible by our laws of physics. The sorts of things that prove he could really do what he claims he has done. It's not hard for someone who created a universe and judges the fates of thousands of souls daily. Whether I should ask these things of him is merely dodging the issue, providing a convenient excuse to avoid letting the truth be known. If you're telling the truth, out with it. Show me. Convince me. If you're not telling the truth, refusing to demonstrate it will only show your hand that much faster. I'm not an idiot, so don't play me like one.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I go to church every week and don't disagree, but how does one explain why the Bible is full of accounts of people speaking with God directly? What happened in the millennia since then? Was the 'veil' between this world and the next nonexistent, or much thinner? Did God decide to stop talking to people at some point? So far no one has addressed this question to my satisfaction.

a reply to: Antigod

If God proved his existence to us in a way that nobody had doubt of him then God would have people following him for the wrong reasons. Many people would follow him simply because they knew he was there and not because they truly wanted to follow. God displaying his existence would create the wrong kind of follower. True faith and belief only comes by ones choices.

a reply to: Antigod

Well... you listed a lot of reasons...just left off what seems to be the correct one....
God is here, everywhere. He knows whats going on and he gave us the way to live, but he also gave us the free will to say no to him, or just ignore his laws...and , geez, this world is what we want, and this is what we got.....

originally posted by: lysacid
a reply to: Antigod

If God proved his existence to us in a way that nobody had doubt of him then God would have people following him for the wrong reasons. Many people would follow him simply because they knew he was there and not because they truly wanted to follow. God displaying his existence would create the wrong kind of follower. True faith and belief only comes by ones choices.

That's like saying that the only smart way to travel is by an airplane that has never been tested or approved by federal officials.

a reply to: AntigodPerhaps the burning in hell is a reference to being alive in a system that your salvation depends on you to believe but you are given no absolute signs of the truth because of your non belief during your past lives.

If you view it strictly from an energy basis then not knowing would create more desire/energy. A peaceful battery has no output.

a reply to: ScientiaFortisDefendit Well brother/sis it may be that with all the noise we experience in life with family work and the roar of political madness going on we don't hear the small voice .The best time with Him is the quiet time when we can find it but most of us jump out of bed and rush off to the day and don't really get quality time with Him . If you notice that His voice speaks clearly when he isolated them either on the top of a mountain or in a cave or under the stars of the nigh ...He did tell us to go into the closet and close the door .... ETA If you will also note that He spoke to some that didn't want to hear Him .Jonah being a good example but there were others .lots actually ..

a reply to: Antigod

Proof is all around you. Do you really think the complexities of our world and universe are accidental? Plus the exercise of faith is key to our type of existence. God can and does create perfect beings. Perfection is not our origin, it's our goal.

I've posted this before, but think it will be useful in this discussion.

1. Is courage — strength of character — desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

2. Is altruism — service of one’s fellows — desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3. Is hope — the grandeur of trust — desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

4. Is faith — the supreme assertion of human thought — desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

6. Is idealism — the approaching concept of the divine — desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

7. Is loyalty — devotion to highest duty — desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

8. Is unselfishness — the spirit of self-forgetfulness — desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

9. Is pleasure — the satisfaction of happiness — desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: ScientiaFortisDefendit Well brother/sis it may be that with all the noise we experience in life with family work and the roar of political madness going on we don't hear the small voice .The best time with Him is the quiet time when we can find it but most of us jump out of bed and rush off to the day and don't really get quality time with Him . If you notice that His voice speaks clearly when he isolated them either on the top of a mountain or in a cave or under the stars of the nigh ...He did tell us to go into the closet and close the door .... ETA If you will also note that He spoke to some that didn't want to hear Him .Jonah being a good example but there were others .lots actually ..

It's really coincidental that hallucinations are strongest when we are completely deprived of stimuli.

The reason is because unfortunately God is too complex for animals on earth to conceive and utilize, but the animals are aware of God in the light, they are aware of the mysterious aspect of earth - the omnipresence. The display of the cosmos and the display of matter are enough to say that it is a constant word and example of the Creator. I do not know what makes a person go bad, but it is clear that even Buddhism matches the bible in the sense that every word action and thought are the result of karma, the result of salvation. That is the message of the New Testament. When Jesus said he was the 'only' way he was talking to a group of sinners. We need to take the circumstances into perspective and not argue like squirrels among specific words - Jesus spoke in parables so that is a direct gave away that Christians should not get caught up in their interpretation to detailed words, but the message conveyed not in words because it was meant to be that way.

Now if you're asking, 'why doesn't a large vortex of fire open up the whole sky and claim to be the Creator of the universe by speaking in earth rumbling tones of thunder?' I'm not sure why that doesn't happen...

Did not know it was crucial to have faith in god to be a sheep (harmonious moral person who do not want to cause harm)? I know churches want's people to believe it so they join.

Jesus said he will protect sheep and keep them safe.

biblehub.com...

I like Jesus and his soul brothers and sisters (for instance Nanak, Buddha, Rumi). Could not really care about one religion vs another since all of them seem to me to be simplefying too much.

Kundalini can be nice when the root burn is not to hot. I would probably like to astral project and see the loving ones in person. .

originally posted by: lysacid
a reply to: Antigod

If God proved his existence to us in a way that nobody had doubt of him then God would have people following him for the wrong reasons. Many people would follow him simply because they knew he was there and not because they truly wanted to follow. God displaying his existence would create the wrong kind of follower. True faith and belief only comes by ones choices.

Seriously how are you supposed to know which religion is real? You're missing the point.

originally posted by: ScientiaFortisDefendit
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I go to church every week and don't disagree, but how does one explain why the Bible is full of accounts of people speaking with God directly? What happened in the millennia since then? Was the 'veil' between this world and the next nonexistent, or much thinner? Did God decide to stop talking to people at some point? So far no one has addressed this question to my satisfaction.

From my point of view the chi flow changes the probability around a person playing around with chi so that synchronicity become more usual. Chi also make the probability for successful telepathy higher.

I have only had one message in my life thru the internal hearing and that takes a couple of days to come to the state where you are awake but so close to sleep that you can see the room around you but can also consciously let go of control over senses so you can receive without controlling the information coming in.

Much of spiritual knowledge are lost since we are conditioned to not know it by society. God/"the ones on the other side of the veil" is there to talk when someone is ready to listen but people seldom are.

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: Antigod

Proof is all around you. Do you really think the complexities of our world and universe are accidental? Plus the exercise of faith is key to our type of existence. God can and does create perfect beings. Perfection is not our origin, it's our goal.

I've posted this before, but think it will be useful in this discussion.

1. Is courage — strength of character — desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

2. Is altruism — service of one’s fellows — desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3. Is hope — the grandeur of trust — desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

4. Is faith — the supreme assertion of human thought — desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

6. Is idealism — the approaching concept of the divine — desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

7. Is loyalty — devotion to highest duty — desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

8. Is unselfishness — the spirit of self-forgetfulness — desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

9. Is pleasure — the satisfaction of happiness — desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

That's the problem with religious people, they think anything and everything is proof of god. And I would strongly disagree that faith is the supreme assertion of human thought. Science would be my choice.

Animals with zero religion display altruism, kindness, loyalty and many other 'noble' traits. It is the conceit of religious people to think these behaviours come from religion or god. They are there as part of standard social animal behaviour, and evolved for good reason. Social behaviour improves the individuals chances of survival for many species.

Funny true story, chickens can get religion. There's a story about a chicken that happened to have rung a bell just before feeding time, so ended up believing the bell made the food appear.

So far, not one of the religious posters have come up with any sort of rational argument as to why god isn't providing proof.

a reply to: Antigod

The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.

originally posted by: Antigod

So far, not one of the religious posters have come up with any sort of rational argument as to why god isn't providing proof.

I never saw your cunning argument debunking my recent threads.
No one has yet, and I've been begging for a real debate.
Which actually prove what you are asking for in countless ways, and it can just go on forever.
It's a philosophical paradox that defaults in the stable positive function as the negative function is unstable.

Maybe start with the Jesus-Unicorn thread and read the stuff after, it evolves and is extensive so get a lot of popcorn. I did actually try to make it entertaining as well, so it wouldn't just be dry rhetoric without any flavor or style. Forgive the grammar and spelling mistakes my spellchecker and I are limited. The main point is I wrote it just for someone like you who wants evidence and elaborate explanations with complex surprises, because I wanted similar and I found plenty of it in every direction. You just gotta know what to look for.

But I do thank you for creating this thread and being honest because I have learned a few things from the various posters and was actually pleased to see some of the well worded comments. It has been, despite a few road bumps, a thought provoking thread with many well stated observations from diverse points of view.

His only excuse is that he doesn't exist.

a reply to: Antigod

Read Romans 1... you'll see that His creation IS the proof of His existence. Circular argument you say?.. No it isn't, because there is an entry point and that entry point is faith. Hebrews 11 defines faith as the evidence of that which is not seen, because if we could see it, then there would be no reason for faith. If it makes you happy, the day is coming where all of the false religions and those who lead them will get what is coming to them... For more on that read Revelation 17. Religion in it's proper context is a great thing, however man has corrupted and redefined religion. God's definition of true religion can be found in James 1:27... it reads "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." There it is... love your neighbor as you love yourself, love God with all of your heart, mind and soul, and live a holy life by being IN the world... not OF the world. The bottom line is this.... there are two options for eternity... the first is eternal life with God, which can only be found by trusting Jesus Christ to save you... the other option is a eternity condemned in Hell which will happen by doing anything else BUT putting your complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ. All of the religious babble talked about is just that... nonsensical babbling. Denominations are a creation of man... Catholic, Judaism, etc... all creations of man, to serve the purpose of man. True religion, as defined above, is a creation of God... to serve the purpose of God. Salvation is easy, you trade your faith, for God's grace.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: adjensen

If you knew, for a fact, that the Christian God existed, would you love him for his sake, or would you "love" him because you're afraid of the consequences of not loving him?

I had a boyfriend like that once. It wasn't until I'd known him for years that I figured out that he was an "ass" who had conned me and taken advantage of my blind devotion to him.

Love is blind, you know.

But as for the Christian God, if I knew for a fact he existed and that the stories about him are true, I'd maybe "say" I loved him, but how could I really do so?? That is clearly a coerced 'affection', like a tyrant who demands homage.

And if this God can see into your heart, what good would it do to fake it? It'd be like having a lie detector test - or torture device - put on you and being asked 'do you think that guy is better than me?' Well, if I do, then what?

Here's the thing with the anthropomorphization of God (for those unfamilar with the word; it means attributing human qualities to non-human things) -- he's not a nice guy. And unconditional love does not include threats of eternal torture or the chance of being disowned. If God is a 'person', and supposedly "Our Father" - well, he's a crap parent. Abusive, neglectful, and scary if he's around - absentee if he's not. Crap parenting all the way.

I agree with you about the hellfire preaching - it's so destructive. It doesn't build up a person, it tears them down with neverending uncertainty of being "good enough". Crap love. Not unconditional love. Brutality and control.

No thanks.
If it was my dad, I'd run away. If it was my boyfriend or husband, I'd break up with him. Or throw him out. Or both. All three. Who needs that kind of treatment? NO ONE likes to be yelled at, written up, shamed, humiliated, hurt. Some don't mind being bossed around, but, well.....

yeah NO. God isn't a person, nor a parent, nor a caring 'shepherd.' That's the best I can come up with.

I feel you, buy you just anthropomorphized God when you likened him to your messed up boyfriend or crappy parents.

Read the bible, and you will see what God is like. The truth is, most peoples conception of God, christian's and non- christian's alike, are incomplete, or incorrect. There are facets of Jehovah that will make some of us cringe, and not come to terms with. The thing is most of us have not read the bible to understand God's whole character, and there lies the problem.

God is loving, and will work with you and your inequity, but who WILL NOT HESITATE to put a hit out on you and your whole damn pagan country, after all the chances he has given you to turn form these false gods that had the population roast their kids on a fire pit to Baal (satan), public orgies, amoral principles pertaining to debt and business, etc.

He is chilled, he is angry. He does good, and he will do evil to get a point across that he tried the peaceful way before. He wants peace, but he'll make some damn war. Hd want's you to be with him in heaven, but if you are not able to straighten yourself ,your soul is weak, unclean, and is now disposable in his eyes.

What people don't realize is that God has VERY high standards for us to fulfill, and maintain. Also, we are all HIS CREATIONS. We are not on the same level like a human father and child with him. It is more like master and dog. The only thing is we are not regarded by him as simple beasts, but complex, multi-faceted mini versions of himself that he created for the primary purpose of his worship, praise, and glory, and secondarily for his pleasure of teaching and directing his own intelligent creations to live according to how he knows.