The Reason why The Bible says Hellfire is a Fabrication of The Truth.

StallionDuck

..............
That says to me that more than just those who believe will be saved. Interesting. I never noticed these words.

Does that mean you're abandoning the 144K theory and that no one alive will ever get there?

That would just make my day.
(Not that anyone cares if they make my day).

........
If you show me my err then I will change my mind. In this case, he's showed me a new hope for my own case, and the lives of others. I will say that yes, it has changed the way I think about the 144k theory, but I will also say that the 144k theory still applies, just not the way I had believed before.

I'm not so stubborn to say that my way is right and will always remain. A big reason I'm open to discussion is to understand. Someone might have an answer I'm looking for. My mind is made up unless someone explains it to me another way that changes it or shows me something that will counter it.

This was a perfect example.

So I guess your day has been made



If you mean that 144k are all that will be "saved " because of the interpretation of the book of Revelation that is not true.
The book of Revelation is not predictions or prophecies of past ,present or future historical events.It is ALL written in allegorical metaphor and says so in verse one.

First to clear up just a few of the inexactness,The "apocalypse" does NOT mean the end of the world by great cataclysm.Apocalypse in Greek means to unveil or uncover.The book got it's name and moniker from the opening statement.

The apocalypse of Jesus christ......

.Jesus is the transliteration of the Latin Isous the transliteration of the Greek Iesous the translation of the Hebrew Yahoshua which IS his name.A name is the nature and character of the thing or person named.Yahoshua in Hebrew means "Yahweh(the creator God) IS the deliver/salvation.

christ is the transliteration into English of the Greek christos the translation of the Hebrew mashiach which is the anointing which means to smear or rub on oil.That is what the Israelite and Jews did to signify the power of God imbued to a King or prophet of God.

So what it says is

The unveiling of Gods salvation the power of God.....it is not a "doomsday" prophecy at all..just the opposite!!(like all religious doctrines). Everything in the scriptures is a testimony in one form or another of God salvation (Yahoshua).

The number 144 is used only in the book of Revelation.It's first used in Rev 7 of the tribes of Israel.(Israel is a metaphor for ALL of humanity). It's then used in Rev 14 for the "first fruits".Then it's in Rev 21 as the the measurement of the walls of New Jerusalem.These are ALL metaphors from different perspectives.

The obvious fact should be this is all based in math.144 is not a coincidental number.It's second appearance in Rev 14 is by the infamous much wrongly maligned number 666.(follows it directly).Those numbers have MUCH in common mathematically. There is no way that is a coincident.-The connecting thread is Rev 21 .The wall was "measured with a "golden rod" of measurement.

In math the most significant number(called the perfect number) is the golden ratio, of 1:1.618.... also called Phi or phi which is 1:0.618.....

It is the "perfect ratio"(relationship) to the number one(the creator God) because it is the ONLY number that is in a perfect ratio YET it is an irrational number.!!It is a dichotomy. An irrational number NEVER resolves.... Pi is also an irrational number.
heres how it works in phi/Phi to the 15th decimal....

1÷1.61803398749895= 0.618033988749895
1÷0.618033988749895=1.618033988749895

They are in perfect balance.That is the salvation of mankind.Man is being conceived to be in perfect balance(communion/relationship) with the creator God.Essentially that is the testimony of ALl the scriptures.John was told to "write" this NOT so it could be deciphered and turned into religious doctrines but as a testimony to the truth..the truth revealed by MATH>......math cannot lie...words can and do lie..frequently.

btw
666 sine = -0.809016994374948
144 cosine= 0.809016994374948
0.809016994374948 + 0.809016994374948=1.618033988749895....

666 is the beginning stages of phi/Phi.In the physical realm it is close enough to not be perceivable. The growth process can be clearly seen in the most significant number sequence that ALL life grows by...The Fibonacci number(Fn for short) sequence.
the following is Fn0-Fn13
0-1-1-2-3-5-8-13-21-34-55-89-144-233

Notice 144 is Fn12.I is the only Fn beside Fn1 that is a square of it's Fn
1x1=1
12x12=144

There is a symmetry in it that is found in everything .The most significance feature of the FN sequence is it calculates(John was told to "calculate" the number of the beast and the number of man 666)
By dividing adjacent FN it sums phi then Phi as it "grows"
0/1=0
1/0=0
1/1=1
1/1=1
1/2=.5
2/1=2
2/3=.666...
3/2=1.5
3/5=.6
5/3=1.666
etc etc
89/144=0.6180555555555...
233/144=1.618055555555...

this goes on for infinity the "patterns always repeating and growing closer to phi/Phi but never resolve..it's infinite....that is the same of mans relationship to God grows.
btw
Fn37/Fn38=0.618033988749895....
Fn39/Fn38=1.618033988749895.....

The creator God used the scriptures to testify of the truth.That they are delivering ALL of mankind and will be "born" into a relationship with them in a perfect ratio that continues to grow for infinity.It is ALL signified by math.Math is the language of EVERYTHING...because everything grows by and through it.

The fact is everyone will grow to be 144 in a relationship to 89 then 144 to 233.....then.... BEYOND it is only the beginning (beginning means first fruits who ARE the 144 which is the apostles)..

You may ask "why did the creator God just say it in Math..well They did...however math is an abstraction.It draws very "poor" pictures...however physical matter draws very vivid pictures.The pictures (words) are only to "grasp" that there's something "behind" them... math signifies the truth.

All of the scriptures are numbers (gematria and isopsephia) which means they are ALL part of an equation.It can't be deciphered and was never meant to be.It is only a Testimony that there is TRUTH....that is clear and reasonable.One day all mankind will perceive it and know...without ANY deciphering.The creator God is very smart.There is a reason for EVERYTHING.

BuzzyWigs

Your post was very good. Thanks for taking the effort to explain your perspective.
--------------
Belief in "religious" reincarnation (because it can only be believed not known) is not reasonable.In other words it can't be truth.
--------------------
I'm not "religious", so I'm not talking about "religious" reincarnation.

B Wings
I mean no offense however the fact is Everyone is religious.It is mankinds nature to be religious.Your "Belief System" is "your religion your you have "faith" in.It is impossible to escape.The good news is it is necessary.There is nothing wrong with having one however the fact is it must be destroyed to "know" the creator God.The wide path is the wide path of all religions of a multitude of paths(everyone has a different religion) it leads to the gate of destruction(most of Christianity believes the gate of destruction is hell which is completely wrong).After the creator God has destroyed all your false belief in "your" religion you enter the narrow gate.

This process is the hardest thing for everyone to go through.They will do ANYTHING but give up their beliefs.It is the most precious thing in their life yet that is exactly what HAS to be done.That is what Yahoshua called being "crucified" and laying down your life...it wasn't literal...but feels like it.

BuzzyWigs
;;;;;;;;
In short mankind has NOTHING to worry about.Yahoshua said this multiple times but who has listened.Multiple billions throughout history believe(ed) he will torture multiple billions in a literal hell for eternity.That is the complete opposite of the truth.God is "spirit" which means LIFE....to destroy life is impossible for the creator God it goes against their nature.That is the crux of the Good News Yahoshua proclaimed and so did the apostles.EVERYTHING else is religious belief and not true.

--------
Yes. Nothing to worry about.
Totally agreed.

Still - about 'non-religious' reincarnation....
it makes sense to me.

Yes this is the good news....receiving good news is not as easy as it would seem.The disciples didn't like it either and held onto their beliefs to the bitter end.They were the hardest nuts to crack.They were with Yahoshua DAILY for over three years and Peter still didn't want to give up his beliefs.

The Good news is EVERYONE will "give it up" and the gate of destruction will destroy it and it won't be missed....It's all good.

reply to post by Seede


Just like how modern day graves house caskets/dead people, Hades/Hell/Sheol/Pit is considered the unified grave for mankind.
They are unconscious. The soul does not continue to remain active after death. the following is a couple of verse quoted from the OP
(ESV)Psalms 115:17"The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence."

1Thessalonians 4:13"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep [in death], so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."

(NWT) Psalms 146:4 " .His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish

As for the ressurection. I believe all people will be resaurected
Acts 24:15
ofd I tove hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
John5:28-30"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voicev 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.w 30

Rev 20:12,13
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Gravea gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.x

In Hebrews 10:26,27 it's seems that not everyone will get a chance to redeem themselves during the ressurection. It's possible that this could still imply they could that is if they change their ways, but so far my first assumption is what I'm more sure of

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,+ there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,+ 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition."

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jim thank you for proving a point.
Some people will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.They have no idea what those scriptures say, even though All of these scriptures clearly state Yahoshua IS the savior of ALL mankind yet.... they can't see it.... because the good news is an offense to them.They would shut others out of the kingdom of the creator God they can't enter.

Fortunately they will enter the kingdom of the creator God but not the way think ...by their self righteous holiness of "their" religion.All the religion in the universe will not make anyone holy ...but just the opposite.

reply to post by Rex282


Atleast you dont need to be holy in the physical to realise when this life ends that your true self is the holiest

BuzzyWigs
reply to post by StallionDuck

 

If you show me my err then I will change my mind. In this case, he's showed me a new hope for my own case, and the lives of others.

I wasn't going to show you anything, I just noticed you changed your mind!

I will say that yes, it has changed the way I think about the 144k theory, but I will also say that the 144k theory still applies, just not the way I had believed before.

Not getting that part. Either it does, or it doesn't. Earlier you said no one alive, and something about children....

I believe we all get there, after much struggle and strife living as incarnate/displaced parts of the Divine.

I'm not so stuborn to say that my way is right and will always remain. A big reason I'm open to discussion is to understand. Someone might have an answer I'm looking for. My mind is made up unless someone explains it to me another way that changes it or shows me something that will counter it.

This was a perfect example.

Very nice to meet you!!! I totally agree!
Still, I don't get how the 144K can hold up at all.

*extends hand* (*to shake firmly, not like a limp fish*)

That's ok, your confusion confuses me. lol

I'm saying yes... He has changed my mind... But by showing me something that did so.

When I said that

If you show me my err then I will change my mind.

what I meant was... If you (anyone) see that I may be wrong, and you (anyone) show me where I might have made a mistake in what I've read or believe because I have not read something else, or just didn't understand correctly before... then yes I will change my mind. He has done exactly that. In other words.. I did change my mind but not by what he said, but by what he showed me. (proof)

Happy to meet you too! I always give a firm shake, no matter who is on the other end. Show respect first for respect, I always say. Can never tell when someone might be holding out Give it your all the first time and nothing else matters.

reply to post by deeezbeats

TextThey are unconscious. The soul does not continue to remain active after death

Thank you deeezbeats for your prompt answer.
I agree with you that the soul, corpse of the dead, are unconscious to this world. I also agree that a dead ,corpse, cannot remain active. I believe that is a fundamental belief among most people.

reply to post by deeezbeats

(ESV)Psalms 115:17 "The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence."

That is the second of a three verse group.
Psalms 115:16-18
The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
but the earth he has given to mankind.
It is not the dead who praise the Lord,
those who go down to the place of silence;
it is we who extol the Lord,
both now and forevermore.
(2011 NIV)
biblehub.com...
This one particular thought here, about people being dead, doesn't fit into the rest of the chapter, so it isn't the central thought at all but is really like a plea to The Lord to not kill off the people, God's people in particular, namely Israel.
It isn't about individual people, but the people as a group.
It is talking in the chapter about how other peoples worship idols.
If the real living God wants someone to worship Him, then He needs to preserve them in particular, otherwise there would be only people worshiping idols.

StallionDuck

----------
I'm saying yes... He has changed my mind... But by showing me something that did so.

When I said ...
that If you show me my err then I will change my mind....what I meant was... If you (anyone) see that I may be wrong, and you (anyone) show me where I might have made a mistake in what I've read or believe because I have not read something else, or just didn't understand correctly before... then yes I will change my mind. He has done exactly that. In other words.. I did change my mind but not by what he said, but by what he showed me. (proof)

Yes I'm not trying to change anyones mind because I can't(nor can anyone else).What happened is you heard the Truth now you "know it".Belief takes a lot of wasted effort where as truth doesn't take any effort because it's given.Most people are searching in vain for something that isn't lost.It's right there in front of them just as you saw those scriptures that didn't change only your perspective(perception) did.

I can assuredly say flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father did.It is all this simple.The only thing in the way of the truth is a Belief System(religion).That's the beauty in what Yahoshua said.He was never teaching, only shining very bright lights on Truth.He never taught the disciples ONE thing that they understood.They all had to get it the same way....from the Father.Just as Yahoshua only did what the Father said.
What you experienced is "forgiveness".That word in the scriptures does not mean"pardoned from guilt".It means freed from bondage...the bondage of your religion...your false belief system.It's a process however ,it will eventually be destroyed and replaced with "knowing.

Yahoshua said

"If you continue in my word(the Truth) THEN you are truly my disciple THEN you WILL KNOW the truth and THEN ......the truth will make you free."

The last phrase has been twisted so the 1st part is not perceived.Faith is important because faith proceeds knowing however it is NOT knowing.It's purpose is to lead us to Truth(not temptation/testing by faith)...as you can see the scriptures are not what those believe in it believe.They are the foundation of many peoples "Belief System".It isn't the scriptures that are incorrect it is the perception of belief.Belief is more beneficial than fear.That's the purpose of faith... to lead you away from fear however belief is not the end game.It is only the catalyst that eventually must be destroyed.

I'm not writing this to convince you.I'm only writing this to say how it works...and it WILL work and fortunately it is a process that only the creator God can "work" IN you.Your purpose is to just live...that's ALL you can do anyways.You'll pass through fear to faith then knowing...knowing is a nice place....NO RELIGION TOO!

Many people may think John Lennon was a Godless atheist swine...and maybe he "was" however the creator God communicated through him some of the most profound truth in a very simplistic song.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace..


IMAGINE....

reply to post by StallionDuck

Thanks for that...

Especially showing "Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.". That says to me that more than just those who believe will be saved. Interesting. I never noticed these words.

This pastoral writing here in this section is talking about how to be "a good minister of Christ Jesus" teaching people the difference between false holiness and true holiness, in this example, how not eating certain foods is not right as a way to holiness because it is merely a form of physical discipline, and also based on a false premise since God made all the food, to start with.
Rather, the spiritual improvement of godliness is superior because it is something that will carry over into the next life.

1 Timothy 1:1 says ". . . God our Savior . . ."
1 Timothy 2:3-4 says ". . .God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Which leads up to the verse in question, 1 Timothy 4:10,which says ". . . the living God, who is the Savior of all people . . ."

Normally we would expect this to be used as a title associated with Jesus, as in
Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
(2011 NIV)
If you look at the definition for the Greek word translated as "savior" in 1 Timothy 4:10, it is: savior, deliverer; preserver.
In the Thayer's Greek Lexicon entry, it says

The name was given by the ancients to deities, especially tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in the more degenerate days by way of flattery to personages of influence;
biblehub.com...

concerning what I underlined in the Thayer's quote

A tutelary (also tutelar) is a deity or spirit who is a guardian, patron or protector of a particular place, geographic feature, person, lineage, nation, culture or occupation. Both tutelary and tutelar can be used as either a noun or an adjective.
en.wikipedia.org...

I am seeing a connection between God being the preserving deity of everyone, and the statement in verse 4 regarding food, "For everything God created is good".
It resonates with the saying of Jesus, how we need to be like God, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?

Just as God is the maker of every kind of food, God is the preserver of all people.

reply to post by Rex282

Yahoshua said

"If you continue in my word(the Truth) THEN you are truly my disciple THEN you WILL KNOW the truth and THEN ......the truth will make you free."

The last phrase has been twisted so the 1st part is not perceived.Faith is important because faith proceeds knowing however it is NOT knowing.It's purpose is to lead us to Truth(not temptation/testing by faith)...as you can see the scriptures are not what those believe in it believe.They are the foundation of many peoples "Belief System".It isn't the scriptures that are incorrect it is the perception of belief.Belief is more beneficial than fear.That's the purpose of faith... to lead you away from fear however belief is not the end game.It is only the catalyst that eventually must be destroyed.

These are two different Greek words being used in the examples, one means forgiveness, literally meaning "sent away", which happens to whatever you are being forgiven of.
The "set free" is from another Greek word that means released.

The verses you are quoting is John 8:21-32, and Jesus defines the thing that you need to be released from in verse 34, ". . . everyone who sins is a slave to sin."
So the "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples." part in verse 31 would be actually following the way of life that he was pointing out, which is not sin, but righteousness.
Once you see that Jesus is able to deliver on his promise of empowerment from God, to fulfill the requirements of righteousness, then you will know that Jesus is who he says he is, the Son of God, and as his disciples, we are adopted in as sons of God ourselves.
John 8:35
Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
(2011 NIV)

deeezbeats

sk0rpi0n
@op... The Israelite religion teaches that everybody who dies remains in a state of death until the resurrection after which they will be either rewarded or punished. (See the very last verse in Daniel.) The scripture verses you quoted in the op about ''the dead'' are referring to this intermediate stage between life and the afterlife. Those verses are not disproving hell in any way.

the fact that you're refering the lake of fire as hell when they aren't even the same, let's me know you didn't read everything I posted. So I did not disprove the existence of the lake of fire, I disproved what the lake of fire is taught to be like. So show me why I didn't disprove of the mainstream lake of fire doctrine. Better yet, show me from the bible where souls are immortal and where the lake of fire is literal torture.

edit on 27-3-2014 by deeezbeats because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-3-2014 by deeezbeats because: (no reason given)

I wasn't talking about the ''lake of fire''. I said that all the verses you quoted in the op are referring to the period of ''death''... which is followed by the resurrection. As for hellfire being literal, there are verses in psalms, the gospels and many other places. I can't help it if you choose to interpret them as non-literal. Immortality of souls? What does the Bible say happens to Daniel after he collects his reward? Does Daniel cease to exist?

jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

The scripture verses you quoted in the op about ''the dead'' are referring to this intermediate stage between life and the afterlife.

I think the part in Ecclesiastes "they have no more share in all that is done under the sun." pretty much sums up the point of those quoted scriptures.

Or, they ''they shall have nothing more to do with life on earth''....during the period of ''death''.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

What does the Bible say happens to Daniel after he collects his reward? Does Daniel cease to exist?

Are you talking about this?
Daniel 12:3
Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(2011 NIV)

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Well you didn't read the entire op, I'll brief you on why the lake of fire is a metaphor for death/destruction. I mentioned the condition of the dead to further my point.

Rev. 20:14"...................This means the second death, the lake of fire."
Jude 7 "In the same manner, Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

2 Peter 2:6 "And by reducing the cities of Sod′om and Go·mor′rah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come."


Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·hen′na.(Lake of Fire) Yes, I tell you, fear this One.

Matthew 10:28 "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na(Lake of Fire)

2 Peter 3:7".......reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

1 Corinthians 3 16:17 "Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple+ and that the spirit of God dwells in you?+ 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 " These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, "

Proverbs 27:20"Sheol(Hell) and destruction are not satisfied, And the eyes of man are not satisfied."

Proverbs 15:11"Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?"

jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

What does the Bible say happens to Daniel after he collects his reward? Does Daniel cease to exist?

Are you talking about this?
Daniel 12:3
Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(2011 NIV)

No, I am refering to the 13th verse in the same chapter... God tells Daniel ''you will die, but will rise to recieve his reward at the end of time''... Also, verse 2 speaks of people rising to face either eternal life or eternal disgrace.

sk0rpi0n

jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

What does the Bible say happens to Daniel after he collects his reward? Does Daniel cease to exist?

Are you talking about this?
Daniel 12:3
Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(2011 NIV)

No, I am refering to the 13th verse in the same chapter... God tells Daniel ''you will die, but will rise to recieve his reward at the end of time''... Also, verse 2 speaks of people rising to face either eternal life or eternal disgrace.

Yes, there is going to be a ressurection for all. The reward being eternal life.

reply to post by deeezbeats

Text Yes, there is going to be a ressurection for all. The reward being eternal life.

What do you mean by "The reward being eternal life"? Is that to say everybody gets the same? No punishments at all?

Seede
reply to post by deeezbeats

 

Text Yes, there is going to be a ressurection for all. The reward being eternal life.

What do you mean by "The reward being eternal life"? Is that to say everybody gets the same? No punishments at all?

The punishment is the Lake of fire, which means the second death Rev. 20:14. You are either written in the book of life or not.
Rev.20:15"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

People who still believe in "hell" because non-existence in death is not a strong enough punishment from their perspective, don't know God at all.