Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

originally posted by: victor7
The illegal junta in Kiev which cannot even win the trust of its own police and army and has to resort to hiring "thugs for pay", will soon find the real meaning and costs of "short term opportunism" and "treacherous demeanor".

Since 1991, Russia gave subsidies worth $200B to Ukraine and in return Kiev is playing the messenger of treachery.

Lol.. what a joke.

Is that the best Pro Russians can do? Consistently threaten people who don't see things their way? That mindset is what led Putin down his failed road and it is going to be his undoing.

The government in Kiev is lawful, no matter how desperately you don't want to acknowledge that and that fact is supported by the Russian government press release concerning the 2012 Parliamentary election in Ukraine.. The actions in Crimea south and east are nothing but examples of Russia trying to convince itself that it is something it never was and never will be.

Since the referendum, illegal in and of itself, was started early in several areas in south and east Ukraine, one can only imagine the bloodshed the idiot ass "pro Russians" who are pushing the referendum are going to cause when they announce the doctored results.

One of the "pro Russian" leaders stated the turnout is going to be 100%.

The world does not buy into the Russian propaganda as it once did. Something Putin should accept since he sounds like an out of touch schizophrenic... Putin is like rainman with first strike capability.

for Pro Russians to demand to be heard while attacking /killing those who aren't on their side is indicative of how a failed educational system whose only goal is to institute a "no question just obey" mindset undermines what it is they want to accomplish.

Since independent thought is forbidden in Russia, I guess the only thing Russians are familiar with are violence. It would explain why they are incapable of holding talks / discussions. Putin, Lavrov, Churkin - All demonstrate that all they know is violence and lies.

By all means.. keep pushing. I look forward to Putin being removed after he collapses his nation economically, leading to the fact he can no longer control other areas militarily. After all it is that exact plan of action that resulted in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Putin is repeating history and sadly a lot of Pro Russians don't either know he is or don't care he is.

Russia needs to act like a responsible nation instead of that of a spoiled 2 year old who is throwing a temper tantrum because they aren't getting their way. if you think your in the clear read the statements today from Germany and France. The next round of sanctions will not be limited to people. NATO is revising its policy and deployments, discussing permanent military presence in the nations that border Russia, and rightfully so.

You guys have been warned...
History has given you warning...
The world community has given you warnings...

Facts - not rhetoric.

An excellent viewpoint / analysis on Russia from an Ethinc Russian on ATS

Russia's internal problems are a) corruption b) little diversification in revenue industries c) too much wealth in few hands. Would commend the OP of that linked thread for throwing a major effort in detailing the problems. However, these are known even to 16 year old average Russian. The main point is to act on them.


Fortunately, Putin's initiative against the western designs on his country should work to "even slowly" weed out the above problems.

Turst me, Putin and Kremlin will not back down from their efforts in Ukraine.......overt or covert.

Best would be if Kiev declares it will never join NATO and then all the problems will be solved not only for the region but also the whole world.

ps: have provided this suggestion before and gotten "sovereign nation" logic based answers. have no more intention to discuss on that anymore.

ps2: basic point is world peace and resulting focus towards more needy topics in their own countries.

a reply to: victor7

How about Russia declare they would never invade Ukraine and will end their occupation of Crimea as evidence of that promise to give an incentive to Ukraine to not join NATO?

The mindset of trying to force Ukraine into not going to NATO is undermined when Russia invades them. If they were on the fence about joining NATO, Russia's actions pushed them over the top.

To blame Ukraine and expect them to acquiesce is the position of a person who is out of touch with reality.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries so leave that alone.

Russia not invading Ukraine in return for Kiev not joining NATO or any western alliance "might work out" just fine.

Kiev cannot give guarantee to not join NATO but turn around and make an 1 to 1 alliance with USA like U2 alliance, would negate such agreement. It has to be very broad and well defined.

Global peace is the main objective here.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Xcathdra

Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries so leave that alone.

And It belonged to Turkey 300 years prior to that. It was given to Ukraine in the 1950's so no, I don't think I will leave it alone.

originally posted by: victor7
Russia not invading Ukraine in return for Kiev not joining NATO or any western alliance "might work out" just fine.

With the caveat they return Crimea. Anything less than that I an I fully support Ukraine joining NATO since it would be the only way for them to survive.

originally posted by: victor7
Kiev cannot give guarantee to not join NATO but turn around and make an 1 to 1 alliance with USA like U2 alliance, would negate such agreement. It has to be very broad and well defined.

Global peace is the main objective here.

Once again you / Russia are trying to decide Ukraine's future without actually involving Ukraine. If all Russians share your mindset then I fully support NATO assisting in restoring the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine, including Crimea. Your doctrine of invade and annex then make demands was used by Hitler.

At some point pro Russians are going to get a history lesson.

Economics aside all the bluster about what Merkel / Germany would not do has shown to be incorrect. Russia can try to restore the soviet union however when they cant afford to pay people they are not going to get to far and will most likely end up losing in the long run.

Using your logic then you completely and totally support the return of Kaliningrad to Germany?

a reply to: Xcathdra

At some point pro Russians are going to get a history lesson.

Hmmmmm, you walked away from a "near peace" and went for the broke.

That attitude will not be tolerated by Germany or other European nations.

This line of thought might dissolve the NATO alliance with Yankees in Europe sent home packing, once and for all.

Here i was reading this apparently there are 4 diffrent referendums going on in Donetsk including one asking people if they want to join the United Kingdom. Hey the UK may end up with another colony in Ukraine.

novosti.dn.ua...

a reply to: victor7

Since the inception of the Soviet Union how has that plan of European and world domination working out for you guys?

The Soviet Union lost and collapsed.
The SSR's are independent.
Putin is living in a dream world. As head of a second rate power one would think Putin could get some mental help but apparently not.

We go back and forth all night but the fact remains all you have going on your side is Russia acting like a spoiled brat who didn't get its way.

All you have left is military for Russia and based on all the evidence what's left is not much of a threat to anyone, except for the Russian people. The top of the lines Russian units are on the border of / area of Ukraine. So far Putin is trying to bluff in the sense he has more military power than what he actually does.


For the life of me I cant figure out why Putin hates Gorbachev and wanted him arrested and charged -
2011 - Mikhail Gorbachev calls for Vladimir Putin to resign The last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to heed protester demands and quit politics.

Apparently Putin and Yanukovych have more in common than we thought -

Mikhail Gorbachev called on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin not to seek a third term as president next year.


He told the Moscow Echo radio: "I would advise Vladimir Putin to leave now. He has had three terms: two as president and one as prime minister. Three terms – that is enough."


Mr Gorbachev, 80, has been virulently critical of the elections that took place on December 4. Soon after the poll he said that the results of the poll should be annulled and new elections held due to "numerous falsifications and rigging."


"The results do not reflect the will of the people," Mr Gorbachev said at the time. "Therefore I think they [Russia's leaders] can only take one decision – annul the results of the election and hold new ones."

The former president was considering attending the march in central Moscow today, to which thousands ventured. He was, however, unable to appear but passed his greetings to the protestors.

Ironically Russia's incessant bitching about Ukraine is once again hypocritical -

President Dmitry Medvedev this week announced reforms to appease the protestors – including resuming elections for regional governors – but the changes fell far short of demands for a re-run of the legislative polls.

In an unexpected boost to the protestors, an advisory Kremlin rights panel said overnight that the new parliament had been discredited by the accusations of fraud and that fresh elections should be called.

Popular in Russia eh -
2012 - Calls for Putin to resign flood campaign website


2011 - Putin ejects Kremlin "puppet master" after protests

Oooo those Fascist Nazis in Russia - Part of article -link above - Why was the top Putin aide removed? Because there was an opposition protest in Moscow.

PUTIN'S SYSTEM

In practice, Surkov's rule meant centralizing power in Putin's hands: Surkov moved regional decision-making to the Kremlin, struck down any attempt at autonomy and directed party politics.

Such was his power that Russia's top party officials, journalists and cultural leaders would visit him in the Kremlin for 'direction' on how to present events to the public.

"He is considered one of the architects of the system," Putin's former finance minister, Alexei Kudrin, told Kommersant FM radio.

Once again History bites Putin in the ass -

But after mass protests in major Russian cities against the parliamentary election and against Putin himself, Surkov's analysis differed to that of his boss.

Putin has dismissed the protesters as chattering monkeys or a motley crew of leaderless opponents bent on sowing chaos, but Surkov gave a more refined view: he said they were among the best people in Russian society.

"You cannot simply swipe away their opinions in an arrogant way," said Surkov, who will now have to move his portrait of Argentine-born revolutionary Che Guevara from his Kremlin office.

Good to know what the South and East of Ukraine might be in for...


Russian election chairs sacked after citing fraud - prior to his last election

Former polling station chairwoman Irina Kolpakova had a similar experience in Samara, a city on the Volga River. She is happy to show a copy of the protocol from her station, which she says proves the real victor was not the ruling party United Russia.

"They tried to talk us into committing fraud, but we did not comply," she said. "In our district the Communist Party won a convincing victory, but the consequences were not so nice for the leadership of the territorial election committee. The chairman and many members were sacked."

UPDATE 1-Ukraine crisis triggers Russia's biggest anti-Putin protest in two years


Well what do you know... Putin did learn something after all. He took what he learned from his own falsified elections and clampdown on the media and applied it to his invasion of Ukraine.


Anyways - Russia has no business telling Ukraine how to conduct its relations, even more so since Putin is doing in Ukraine what he got caught doing in Russia.

Ukrainian Updates ‏@Ukroblogger · 20s
#Mariupol: Happy #Russian referendum crowd: 'We're live on #Russia 24!' www.ustream.tv... … #Ukraine #BacktoUSSR pic.twitter.com/MEIdczuk92

Ruptly ‏@Ruptly · 57s
WATCH LIVE: Referendum on the region's status to be held in Donetsk #Ukraine ow.ly... #fullcoverage

Ukrainian Updates ‏@Ukroblogger · 13m
www.youtube.com... … www.youtube.com... … #Sloviansk last night: Another #Russian attack on #TV tower #Slovyansk #Slavyansk #Ukraine

Kyiv Post ‏@KyivPost · 22m
Separstists' referedum in eastern #Ukraine starts. Check Kyiv Post's live updates http://(link tracking not allowed)/1kXAwvV pic.twitter.com/x4FXkcxV5b

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 26m
The illegal referendum has started, we have ppl in #Donestk Oblast providing updates/photos all day |EMPR News pic.twitter.com/4kOmVLGaCm

I see pro Russians are intent on trying to control the info -

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 1h
This AM terrorists fired mortars #slovyansk TV Tower protected by the Ukr. 2 ppl injur _ @DmitryTymchuk #russiainvadesukraine #Ukraine |EMPR

Petr Shelomovskiy ‏@stopnarcotics · 59m
I repeat hundreds come to the voting poles here in #Mariupol to vote for independence. ballot boxes are in the street pic.twitter.com/BOXPQvS753

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 1h
No people needing to go out 4 "referendum", ppl can now rest at home & voting slips filled in for them. Lovely -PN pic.twitter.com/0aV2XAHrI0

MAERomania ‏@MAERomania · 18h
Romania respects EU sanctions regime. No air transit for RU Vpm Rogozin. Considers his tweets inacceptable & asks f/ official clarification.

US State Department Release - On the Illegal Referenda in Eastern Ukraine

On May 10, 2014, State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki issued the following statement on the illegal referenda in eastern Ukraine:

"As the United States has said, the referenda being planned for May 11 in portions of eastern Ukraine by armed separatist groups are illegal under Ukrainian law and are an attempt to create further division and disorder. If these referenda go forward, they will violate international law and the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The United States will not recognize the results of these illegal referenda.

"In addition, we are disappointed that the Russian government has not used its influence to forestall these referenda since President Putin’s suggestion on May 7 that they be postponed, when he also claimed that Russian forces were pulling back from the Ukrainian border.

"Unfortunately, we still see no Russian military movement away from the border, and today Kremlin-backed social media and news stations encouraged residents of eastern Ukraine to vote tomorrow, one even offering instructions for polling stations in Moscow. Russian state media also continue to strongly back the referenda with no mention of Putin’s call for postponement.

"The focus of the international community must now be on supporting the Ukrainian government’s consistent efforts to hold a presidential election on May 25. International observers note that preparations for these elections are proceeding apace and in accordance with international standards, which will allow all Ukrainian people a voice in the future of their country. According to recent independent polls, a substantial majority of Ukrainians intend to vote on May 25. Any efforts to disrupt this democratic process will be seen clearly for what they are, attempts to deny the rights of Ukraine’s citizens to express their political will freely.

"As President Obama and Chancellor Merkel stated on May 2, the Russian leadership must know that if it continues to destabilize eastern Ukraine and disrupt this month’s presidential election, we will move quickly to impose greater costs on Russia.

"The Russian government can still choose to implement its Geneva commitments, as well as follow through on President Putin’s statement of May 7. We call on them to do so."

- See more at: blogs.state.gov...

Polling stations in Moscow eh?

April - Donetsk referendum to take place soon, 2000 polling stations ready

"We have been engaged in the organizational work and preparations for the referendum for about a month. We have done a lot during this time; we set up 55 election commissions and 2,279 polling stations. We have finished the procedure that usually takes any state three months in a month," Roman Lyagin said.

The referendum on the status of the Donetsk region is scheduled for May 11. Citizens are to answer the question - "Do you support the act on state independence of the Donetsk People's Republic?" Lyagin also specified that over 25,000 members of election commissions "from all territorial districts of the Donetsk region" will be monitoring the referendum. A 70 percent voter turnover is expected in the upcoming vote.

Click link for remainder of article.

Independent observers eh?

Nothing like having the SS investigate Auschwitz..

Nothing like specifics to make something appear legal only to find no specifics behinf the message -

Donetsk region prepares 1,500 voting stations for referendum

At some point im sure they will all agree on just how many polling station are in use since they number keeps changing.

He made the statement in the building of the Donetsk region administration which had been seized by supporters of the federalization bid.

"We have complete understanding with the authorities who are not interfering with the plebiscite. Schools will accommodate voting stations in all towns of Ukraine's Donetsk region," Liagin said.

According to the election commission official, federalization supporters had set up 53 district commissions. "Voting will be valid with any turnout," he said adding that the voting stations would close at 23:00, Moscow time.

Liagin also noted that federalization supporters controlled regional election commissions and that the Donetsk region would not participate in the May 25 presidential election, TASS reports.

Nothing like referencing the decision of those in authority without actually referencing who the person is.



Nothing new here -

Donetsk referendum to be held without independent observers

The Donetsk referendum to be held in the Donetsk Region on Sunday will take place without the participation of independent observers because none of them sent a participation letter, chairman of the central election committee of the declared Donetsk People’s Republic Roman Liagin said.

"Observers did not send participation requests. We did not refuse anyone, there were no applications," Liagin said at a press-conference on Saturday.

No independent observers...
The "observers" present are from that region and are part of the secession movement...
Rely on media as an independent observer when they will not have access to the polling stations (inside) and cannot monitor what happens to the ballot boxes after the elections, let alone be present when the counts occur.

Also - Just like Crimea - Has anyone been able to determine what law is being used for the vote?
Who is eligible to vote and who is not eligible to vote?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Also - Just like Crimea - Has anyone been able to determine what law is being used for the vote? Who is eligible to vote and who is not eligible to vote?

The answer is yes.
Another question. How many ballots of the millions being distributed can be dropped into a ballot box by anyone in particular?

UPDATE 1-Ukraine crisis triggers Russia's biggest anti-Putin protest in two years





Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end? No photo's with link so didn't happen. God, I miss the I hate Obama threads.

People of Mariupol queuing in hundreds for voting today.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Xcathdra

Also - Just like Crimea - Has anyone been able to determine what law is being used for the vote? Who is eligible to vote and who is not eligible to vote?

The answer is yes.
Another question. How many ballots of the millions being distributed can be dropped into a ballot box by anyone in particular?

This was one of my main arguments with the Crimean referendum and to date I have yet seen any law or guidelines that answered those basic questions. Leaving out the Russian President Council findings, even the UNHCR raised those questions about Crimea.

This thread has become irritating to read, literally hijacked by a handful of know it all. Experts in Russian- Ukrainian internal and external affairs , they even have figured Putin actions, his thinking and his next moves. Laughable! How many of you here who run their mouths constantly, speak Russian ? or Ukrainian ? been or lived in any of these countries ? People tend to apply western mentality thinking on Russians or Ukrainians, this is were you are making a mistake. Get of the one sided mindset and look at both sides equally even then you will know nothing. I am half Russian, my parents speak Russian, was born in an ex USSR country, i have relatives in all over Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Finland etc, i speak 3 Languages and even i do not allow myself the luxury to speak so blatantly on behalf of those Nations us some have made a habit of here. Get a grip , take a break for a week, and yes i have been and live in Ukraine too, the very city of Odessa where people were burned

originally posted by: 13th Zodiac



UPDATE 1-Ukraine crisis triggers Russia's biggest anti-Putin protest in two years

'Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end? No photo's with link so didn't happen. God, I miss the I hate Obama threads.'

this was 2 months ago?

originally posted by: 13th Zodiac



UPDATE 1-Ukraine crisis triggers Russia's biggest anti-Putin protest in two years




Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end? No photo's with link so didn't happen. God, I miss the I hate Obama threads.

Its an older article but goes along with my points in the posts above it. If you were insinuating something else let me know because im missing it.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: 13th Zodiac



UPDATE 1-Ukraine crisis triggers Russia's biggest anti-Putin protest in two years

Yup. Two months ago.
'Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end? No photo's with link so didn't happen. God, I miss the I hate Obama threads.

'

this was 2 months ago?