Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

a reply to: cosmonova

Yup - as I stated it went along with the posts above that documented some of the issues going back to 2011 up until now. A comparison of Russian antics and what we are seeing Ukraine.

a reply to: Phage

How many ballots of the millions being distributed can be dropped into a ballot box by anyone in particular?

I could ask the same how the process is done when the EU elections start to.

voting in Lugansk is taking place

a reply to: Laxus

Then do us a favor - Join in and lend your expertise in those areas to the thread, regardless of which side it may or may not support.

National Guard abandoned army barracks in Mariupol after another disaster 2 days ago.

I agree with the points raised below,
and most of the entire piece.



Entire Story

So the question remains: how are we going to negotiate about Putin's bottom line, with no strong levers to dislodge him? The Ukrainians have managed their affairs badly, but they entirely deserve independence and a viable democracy of their own. Neither have been reinforced by the West's good intentions, its money, and its meddling. But the failure of Western policy goes deeper than that. The decision to enlarge Nato was taken in the mid-1990s on the basis of two assumptions: the Russians could not stop it; and Nato would never have to honour the military guarantee to which its new members would be entitled. We have an absolute obligation to the Balts, the Poles and the others who are now inside the fence. But we went on to dangle membership in front of Ukraine and Georgia without considering how to defend them if Russia chose to object by force. That was irresponsible, and a betrayal of two weak countries who thought they could rely on us. It may well mark the end of the West's fantasy that, with the Cold War over, it could set the rules in what it chose to call a "postmodern" world and extend its idea of democracy almost at will by the superiority of its values and the overwhelming weight of its arms.

a reply to: cosmonova
Last I saw Kiev told its military / security forces to step down to prevent bloodshed / creating a possibility of bloodshed.

The EU/West requested / urged Kiev to suspend its operations during the illegal voting.

Anti-Kiev junta locals in #Mariupol burned a #Ukraine Army BMP-2 & wrote "that's for Odessa, biths." on it.

link to live stream, voting in Lugansk

www.ustream.tv...

a reply to: 13th Zodiac

Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end?

It will end when Putin quits trying to take over countries that aren't part of Russia.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: cosmonova
Last I saw Kiev told its military / security forces to step down to prevent bloodshed / creating a possibility of bloodshed.

The EU/West requested / urged Kiev to suspend its operations during the illegal voting.

in this particular case they have completely abandoned army barracks where they were based.
They were in a big rush doing it for some reason. I mean to leave APC just like that, strange.
Not sure where are they now.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: 13th Zodiac

Bloody hell, those yanks are doing it in Russia now too! When will their madness end?

It will end when Putin quits trying to take over countries that aren't part of Russia.

Really? Putin is trying to take over countries that aren't part of Russia? Without Russia Today there wouldn't be an Ukraine to speak of.

And the only ones that are trying to take over countries that arent theres is America and the EU along with NATO.

live stream, voting in Donetsk

www.ustream.tv...

a reply to: rigel4

Its difficult to determine a response, with regards to Ukraine and Georgia, when neither were a member of NATO when hostilities occurred.

How does one explain to Russia that the former east bloc nations want to join NATO specifically because at one point they were unwilling members in the east bloc?

Having the US or Russia negotiate with each other and make agreements that affects sovereign 3rd party nations who were not involved in those negotiations can be blamed for a lot of the issues world wide.

Its like a catch 22 when it comes to Russia the EU/West and NATO.

* Soviet Union goes away resulting in former SSR's becoming independent.
* A setup occurs where NATO wont go east.

* Its unrealistic to make a statement that former east bloc nations cannot join NATO, even more so when those very nations were at one point occupied by the Soviet Union.

If you spent 50+ years in an occupied SSR and you finally get freedom, the goal to keep that freedom and to prevent a second occupation would require a nation to form a relationship with other nations / entities that could help guarantee that freedom.

Everything Putin has done has resulted in the very opposite of what he wants.

The question then becomes - Is Russia truly irked about NATO / EU expansion because of proximity to its borders or is Russia irked because it makes restoring something close to the former Soviet Union difficult if not impossible to accomplish. The reason for that question and exploration revolves around Putin's vision of the Russian military. Putin has set up an extremely aggressive plan to modernize the Russian military, with completion occurring around 2020.

As for his view on NATO and article V - If a member comes under attack and there is no response from NATO, the NATO will be getting exactly what it deserves when hostilities come to their borders.

Near the end of the USSR there were discussions in the West about helping The Soviet Union monetarily. At the end of those discussion it was decided not to assist since the effects would reach beyond Moscow. It would have enabled the Soviet Union to reinforce their occupations of east Europe countries.

Re the intercepted, 'conveniently found' ballots in the car.

I wonder if it's related to this from 3 days ago.

en.itar-tass.com...

KIEV, May 08. /ITAR-TASS/. Unknown persons overnight destroyed about a million ballots printed for a referendum on independence in the Donetsk Region, local police said on Thursday.
Witnesses said unknown persons broke into a printing house and destroyed 800,000 ballots prepared for a referendum planned for May 11. The attackers also destroyed printing equipment.

Wouldn't have been too hard to have kept a few boxes back.

a reply to: cosmonova

Most likely out of sight but somewhere close should anyone cross a border.

Speculating for the moment -

Having Ukraine military units / security units in that close of proximity to the voters could potentially be used to instigate an incident.

Its also possible that the move by Kiev is to call a bluff on Russia. Russia had pushed for a referendum / more autonomy for the East South and Crimea. Ukraine resisted that suggestion from the start. Then, one day, they announced they would allow the referendum and it would occur during the presidential elections. There was a few days there where Russia did very little, as if trying to figure out how to get around something they didn't plan on occurring.

Its possibly the reason the referendum was moved to May 11th. Have it on the 25th and Moscow cant control the outcome. If it occurred on the 25th it would yank the carpet out from under Russia who has stated they wont recognize the May 25 elections. If it were help on the 25 Russia would be put into the position of either accepting the entire voting spectrum, resulting in legitimacy for the Kiev government or if Russia denounced it and refuses to accept it would also mean the referendum vote was invalid as well.

just a possibility..

Gulliver Cragg ‏@gullivercragg · 10m
A friend in #donetsk tells me he has already voted ("no") three times in #referendum and "I'm not stopping!" #Ukraine

Can anyone confirm this to make sure its not a fear tactic by Russia -

RT ‏@RT_com · 10m
DETAILS: Around 15 APCs attack Novoaydar village near #Ukraine’s Lugansk – self-defense forces on.rt.com...

More election result announcements like we saw in Crimea -

PaulaSlier_RT ‏@PaulaSlier_RT · 14m
#Donetsk: Turnout has 'already exceeded 30 percent", Chairman of the Central Election Commission says.

Erin Lyall ‏@ErinELyall · 24m
In the #Donetsk #referendum kids are voting and we saw someone vote twice once she realized she had mistakenly ticked "no" @cbsnews

Does anyone know what the rules to vote are? Have they been posted somewhere?

Maxim Eristavi ‏@MaximEristavi · 25m
Ballot stuffing is widespread in #Donetsk, @novostidnua and @EvgenyFeldman report

Henry Langston ‏@Henry_Langston · 1h
Latest dispatch from eastern Ukraine, Victory Day celebrations in #Donetsk and bloodshed in #Mariupol - news.vice.com... … … @vicenews

uromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 46m
Activist Myhailo Logvinenko was kidnapped in #Lugansk, thought to be kept in seized Security Service building. www.0642.ua... |EMPR[/]

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 48m
#Lugansk: ppl cast votes for themselves and for those whose passports they bring. www.0642.ua... |EMPR pic.twitter.com/dndDLP0WLW

Tom Coghlan ‏@TomCoghlan · 1h
Olenovka... Voting chief says no voter lists. Kiev refused to give them. Sees no sign of irregularities - admits it's possible #Ukraine

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 57m
Unconfirmed from #Mariupol: ppl attempted to seize the 2nd APC, via @tikhiys pic.twitter.com/oHsxBtSr7q |EMPR

Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR · 58m
RT @ChristopherJM Hour ago, at #Donetsk School#1, 2men armed w/ shotgun &pistol ordered journalists to stop filming/photographing vote |EMPR

Lizzie Phelan ‏@LizziePhelan · 1h
Mobile network cut off in #Slavyansk on #referendum day @Ruptly

Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM · 1h
Two men not bothering with voting booths, just borrowed my pen to cast their "Yes" votes at School No. 1 in #Donetsk.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Putin is trying to take over countries that aren't part of Russia? Without Russia Today there wouldn't be an Ukraine to speak of.

And so that gives them free reign to go and take it back?