N. Korea Crisis - Updated as News come to hand

Ignore the little the troll everyone, comments are undeserving of a response - let the moderators deal with it.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Agreed, and it is probably related the succession process within North Korea. Kim jong-un, the heir apparent, order the artillery shelling on Tuesday - it did not come from Kim Jong Ill. His reckless approach might be just a muscle flexing exercise for the military, just to prove he defend the sovereignty of North Korea and the regime itself.

Behind the scenes, China probably takes a very tough love approach with it's neighbour. Oil and gas shipments have been reduced and even delayed during missile testing into the Sea of Japan or the previous nuclear test.

However, South Koreans are not best pleased with the limited response from their government and a small minority are literally calling for an aggressive response. Immediately.

reply to post by DarthPhobos


Hey, as far as you are not for the war in the Korean penninsula, you are my friend. Why didn't you say so from the beginning?

Originally posted by notsoperfect

You need to calm down and look at the facts, no-one is warmongering, merely pointing out facts and citing them with sources.

reply to post by Morgil

 

So in your mind War is good. Is that what you are saying? War is still good even if you have to sign up for the draft for the very war?

This is not a video game you are talking about. Imagine your own life is in line as well as that of the millions of other lives.

The point is very simple.

NK did not attack SK first for no reason. And SK did not even deny it.

What else information do you need to have an informative opinion?

Try reading my post again and tell me where I said war was good?

NK has been posturing and flexing it's proverbial muscles for years and if you can't see that then you need to go do some research.

Most of the people on here are well informed and have opinions based on fact, citing sources and presenting arguments in a thought provoking manner.

It seems, unfortunately, that you have fallen into the minority who get upset and lose all reason, adhering to their own beliefs in the face of opposing evidence.

Show us your evidence, explain your thoughts in a legible and tangible manner and we can discuss in a productive debate.

reply to post by Tifozi


China's invasion of Vietnam in 1979, showed major problems with their ability to project power. Vietnam inflicted massive casulaties well into the thousands on the PLA.

The ability to manufacture essentially what is junk on a large scale does not make an efficient logistics network. Factories and cargo ships are not going to make a major difference. What they need is transport aircraft, helicopters, trucks, parts for those vehicles and POL. Then they need a communications network that can coordinate that by time phased force deployment data within some type of joint operation planning and execution system. No one else on earth has a system like ours in place. We manage deployments of personnel and equipment in a manner that would take me at least six weeks to try to explain just the basics. The PLA has nothing like it, no one does. Our systems allow real time tracking of all cargo, materiel, personnel, you name it, it is simply mind boggling.

The Soviets performed well due to a number of factors in WW2. Germany's bad planning, Stalin's ruthlessness, Soviet manufacturing outside the range of German bombers, Germany lacking long range bombers, allied aid to the USSR, and the fact they were defending their motherland.

The Germans were not logistics masters in WW2. It was one of the factors that lost them the war.

Here you contradict yourself, with all due respect. If Russia supports China with logistics, you just nailed their biggest problem (according to your opinion). If Russia (that is "only" Russia) supports China in a military conflict, the US is pretty much screwed, or at least, is in for a very fair and hard fight.

You far overestimate Russia's ability to provide suuport and Russia's relationship with China. They have gotten closer in recent years, but they are nothing like the UK and the US. The PRC still refers to Siberia as the "Northern Resource region". Russia knows in the long term, they will at some point have to deal with China. Just this year the PRC violated border agreements with Russia.

The most realistic scenario would be for Russia to kill two birds with one stone. With the PRC and the US economically devastated after a major war, Russia would be free to expand its sphere of influence and emerge as a global leader.

This post is directed at notsoperfect, it’s off topic, but I'm hoping the mods will understand that I am just trying to relieve the tension.

Notsoperfect, 95.78% of the people on ATS are real human beings, people who are sick of war, sick of governments lying to us, sick of the entire BS that goes on in the world that we, as people, are expected to lap up and move on.

Now, assuming you’re not trolling, and your thoughts are exactly how you feel........Governments are made up of of a few individuals who think they know what is best for us. Some world governments may want peace, others may want war.

Others governments may not want war, but don't want to fall in line with the rest of the world, and choose war as the only means to get their needs across.

It's wrong, I want to live in a world where mankind gets along, regardless of religion, colour or whatever else provokes war, but the sad truth is, it’s not going to happen in our lifetime.

The west seems to think our ideas are the best for the world, and for the most part, I agree, but it wants to remain the greatest power, so won’t allow smaller nations to become greater (in regards to nuclear).

The point is, don't attack your fellow ATS'ers who are some of (for the most part) the true human beings out there, they don't want war, they want the truth.

Originally posted by infinite

However, South Koreans are not best pleased with the limited response from their government and a small minority are literally calling for an aggressive response. Immediately.

I find it amazing that any South Korean in their right mind would protest FOR war. I for one would not call for an escalation that would invariably result in the indiscriminate shelling of my family/countrymen (Seoul).

I applaud the restraint shown by the South Koreans in the face of continuing prvocations/armistice violations...

NK has been posturing and flexing it's proverbial muscles for years and if you can't see that then you need to go do some research.

reply to post by Morgil


What do you mean flexing muscle? Who in the world wants to be attacked preemptively? You saw it in Iraq and Afganistan. What happened to them? If they had nuclear weapons do you think the US would have invaded them? Hell NO. Why the US stopped short of attacking Iran? It was almost too close a while ago.

Iran was wise enoug to actively developed the nuclear technology.

And they are safe now.

What's wrong with making a few nuclear bomds to defend yourself?

Why does it has to be coined as "flexing muscle"?

Choice of words makes a lot of difference.

"Defiant" "Flexing muscle". etc etc.

This type of words are used only when you want to be very aggressive and belittle the subject.

It is not very conducive for a mutually respective polite discussion.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Very good A+

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Tifozi

 

The Soviets performed well due to a number of factors in WW2. Germany's bad planning, Stalin's ruthlessness, Soviet manufacturing outside the range of German bombers, Germany lacking long range bombers, allied aid to the USSR, and the fact they were defending their motherland.

Add to that the majority of the Soviets knew they were in the right.

The Germans were not in the right.

Sure they both had their misgivings but the Nazis really were bad and poked the wrong big guy in the eye. When the big guy had recovered his sight and saw what this idiot had done he set about putting him to the ground and even stole one third of his posesions and was confident in his actions as he knew he was more right than the really bad guy who had caused all the trouble in the field

Originally posted by notsoperfect

This type of words are used only when you want to be very aggressive and belittle the subject.

It is not very conducive for a mutually respective polite discussion.

*sigh*

If you think these terms are aggressive, then i suggest you read some of your own posts above, and you talk of mutual respect and polite discussion? again i direct you to your previous posts.

By flexing muscles I meant the incidents over the years and the rhetoric coming from pyongyang, the usual "we will destroy the south with great force" etc etc ad nauseum.

Sure, they are a nuclear power and that does grant them some degree of power by means of reluctance to engage in war. Same situation with the other nuclear powers, USA, UK, France, Russia etc, no-one would dare invade them.

The major difference is that the other nuclear powers are democracies and have various layers of safeguards against nuclear war and war in general. They must go through parliament or senates.

In NK, there is a situation where the nuclear power is wielded by a dictator, 1 man who can choose on a whim to use them, that's where the flexing of the muscles becomes dangerous. Not because they are doing so, but because they can do so without the will of the people.

Apologies fellow ATSers if I have gone off topic slightly.

Others governments may not want war, but don't want to fall in line with the rest of the world, and choose war as the only means to get their needs across.

reply to post by woogleuk


I would like to agree with you but some posters here are hell bent to distort the truth and determined to fuel the flame of war. That's what I'm talking about.

If you can see through the souls of the posters like I do, you will understand what I mean.

Okay, for people who love this.
I've made a frameset with the possibility to display 4 live webcams in Seoul at the same time, while you can choose a lot of different camera's.
You can visit my page here:
Click here for my Earth Watching website
Stay tuned,
enjoy................

Japan increases EP-3 air patrols

The EP3 aircraft are equipped with advanced radar and other devices to gather electronic information emitted from military facilities.

The EP3 is able to intercept radio signals transmitted between military units, communications between aircraft and control towers, and radar waves emitted by weapons systems.

Japan currently deploys five EP3 aircraft at its Iwakuni Base in Yamaguchi Prefecture, western Japan.

The aircraft routinely patrol the skies over Japan and surrounding areas, monitoring North Korea's military activities, such as a ballistic missile launches.

The Defense Ministry appears to be increasing the number of EP3 flights to be on the alert for further possible military actions by the North.

Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:25:00 +0900(JST)

Well Japan is ready... The US has probably done the same... China too, South Korea too. The US has deployed a top of the line spying sub apparently called the USS Jimmy Carter...

In other news...
Pakistan to allow NATO troops in Pakistan...
India sends 36 000 troops on the Tibetan border...
Lebanon Hariri indictment to be announced on December 2...

Originally posted by woogleuk
This post is directed at notsoperfect, it’s off topic, but I'm hoping the mods will understand that I am just trying to relieve the tension.

Notsoperfect, 95.78% of the people on ATS are real human beings, people who are sick of war, sick of governments lying to us, sick of the entire BS that goes on in the world that we, as people, are expected to lap up and move on.

Now, assuming you’re not trolling, and your thoughts are exactly how you feel........Governments are made up of of a few individuals who think they know what is best for us. Some world governments may want peace, others may want war.

Others governments may not want war, but don't want to fall in line with the rest of the world, and choose war as the only means to get their needs across.

It's wrong, I want to live in a world where mankind gets along, regardless of religion, colour or whatever else provokes war, but the sad truth is, it’s not going to happen in our lifetime.

The west seems to think our ideas are the best for the world, and for the most part, I agree, but it wants to remain the greatest power, so won’t allow smaller nations to become greater (in regards to nuclear).

The point is, don't attack your fellow ATS'ers who are some of (for the most part) the true human beings out there, they don't want war, they want the truth.

edit on 26/11/10 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)

Thats nice and all mr. philanthropist but your living in a dream world and you know it.... Just because someone suggest something you don't like doesn't make them wrong and you right.... How about this one more world war for everyone to be in peace would you then advocate war for the greater good of everyone for the rest of their life to live in peace????? I hope you would think about the children who could live in peace if we were to rid the world of the countries who want to kill other people or keep their own people in bondage..

The major difference is that the other nuclear powers are democracies and have various layers of safeguards against nuclear war and war in general. They must go through parliament or senates.

reply to post by Morgil


Well, the only one who can push the button of the nulcear weapn is Obama in the US. But does he have to have the parliamentry process to push the button?

Is that what you are saying?

Eventually it comes down to one person at the top.

Your presumption is that the one at the top of NK is stupid enough to destroy his own people.

Where did you get that?

reply to post by Vitchilo


Interesting development. Japan has always been weary of North Korea because they are well within range of North Korea's ballistic missiles, so I'm sure they want to be first to know if the North Koreans are moving assets into place to strike.

I think cooler heads will prevail with this situation, but the fact that a US strike force is steaming towards Korea for "exercises" Sunday is concerning. I think the exercises should be postponed until things calm down.

reply to post by thecinic


There is nothing wrong with being a dreamer, especially when it comes to peace, and if I believed for one second our governments agenda was purely motivated by peace I would be fully for it, but sadly I don't think it is. One more war won't solve anything, because there will always be another war after it. We try to impose our ways on other people and they don't buy it. You may argue that that the world is more at peace than it was 100 years ago and yes, more countries are falling in line, but it's all about power, not peace, even if those in power truly believe it is about peace.

Originally posted by notsoperfect

The major difference is that the other nuclear powers are democracies and have various layers of safeguards against nuclear war and war in general. They must go through parliament or senates.

reply to post by Morgil

 

Well, the only one who can push the button of the nulcear weapn is Obama in the US. But does he have to have the parliamentry process to push the button?

Is that what you are saying?

Eventually it comes down to one person at the top.

Your presumption is that the one at the top of NK is stupid enough to destroy his own people.

Where did you get that?

The firing of nuclear weapons requires the authorization of the president before they can proceed, but he is unable to launch on his own, not without the concurrence of a cabinet level official to verify his codes.

reply to post by tristar

nice catch, but do you have a source?

You are spot on though, look past the headline, the 'shuffle' behind the stage is what makes play.

The firing of nuclear weapons requires the authorization of the president before they can proceed, but he is unable to launch on his own, not without the concurrence of a cabinet level official to verify his codes.

reply to post by Morgil


What makes you think that Kim Jong IL will not consult his own military staffs when he has to push the button?

Your presumption is totally incorrect and based on false speculation.

The wide spread concept that he is a total lunatic is false. You are talking within your own matrix you are living inside of it which was created by someone else.

The only way out of the falsehood is to use your own rational mind.