Iraq militants 'killed by own bomb while filming video'

reply to post by dragonridr


I will read the poem soon.
However I can already state one mans interpretation does not make it Islamic.
I'd rather trust my girlfriend who is Muslim, and many other Muslims I interact with regularly than a poet I've never heard of who is "interpreting" how he wants as opposed to those who follow to the word without making assumptions of what Allah meant.

Also it's not my interpretation, it is the way the Quran has been translated.
Not by me.
And like I said nowhere does it state that martyrdom is possible by killing innocent people with suicide bombs.
The Muhammad quote you posted does not state suicide bombers either... Just martyrdom, which I didn't say wasn't in the Quran, I explained what Martyrdom for Allah's cause entails according to Allah. Never a mention of suicide and killing innocent people... actually denouncing such actions.

Furthermore the Quran doesn't say go looking for martyrdom like a hero... It's states only if pushed into such actions should one contemplate reaction that leads towards martyrdom.
The point is to do what's right, and been seen as a martyr in Allah's eyes if necessary in your lifetime... Not to go out of your way to look for martyrdom among the community or the people around the world.

Peace.

Back from the slight drift...
The facts;
Anti-Qaeda fighter and his cohorts die in a premature explosion.

That is all (so far)!!!

The conjecture (including my own);
They did it for 72 virgins.
They were going to target women and children.
It's karma at its most hilarious.
They were Anti-Qaeda who were going to target Al-Qaeda terrorist's (my conjecture) !!!

That is all (so far)!!!

Did we gain from this in any sense?
IMO: Not really!!!

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by hounddoghowlie

 

It actually referred to everything you asked for.
Including answers to your questions and the links that you asked for!

Despite what the poster you replied to is saying, I wasn't trying to "tire" anybody out or to "pad posts"(personally don't even know what that means)!
It was all highly relevant to what you were saying.
If it was a ramble as you put it, especially at such a length it would have been removed by a moderator to "prevent thread drift"...
However it wasn't because they probably understand it was completely in line with what was asked of me.

Peace.

edit on 17-2-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!

you keep going on and on about this not being how jihadist act and that the interpretation that these muslims have is not a interpretation that other muslims have.when in fact they do as i showed you. and that these 21 milliants that blew themselves up were, Anti-Qaeda, a fact that i have asked you to provide a source for, which you provided this link, Iraq speaker targeted in blast as 21 militants killed were millitants attempted to assassinate the iraqi speaker, and the only mention of any Anti-Qaeda at all was were the localAnti-Qaeda leader and a iraqi police officer confirmed that it was milliants. i even reread the link several times to see if i was missing something. if i am please post a quote from this article that you posted in your reply to me. then you provided a link to women driving that i even admitted that i might be mistaken where i said " if i'm not mistaken".

as far as i 'am concerned , seeing the links you provided, and not being able to show how that some muslims who believe in martyrdom and killing innocents are not worshiping and practicing what they see as their interpretation of the islamic faith. that's like me saying that people that protest abortion and blow up clinics are not Christians, which in fact they are, it's just that their interpretation is different than mine. when their time comes God will deal with them on top of what happens to them here on earth.

seeing a lack comprehension skills on your part and you really don't want to admit that your wrong, i will no long reply to any more of your posts. you go on believing, what you want and having a narrow view of what the world is like. something in which you seem to be accusing others of.

in the mean time i'll keep on seeing the fact that a sick twisted group blew themselves up, when they were trying kill innocent people, as a humorous form of justice. just goes to show you that they are a bunch of dumba@@es.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by dragonridr

 

I will read the poem soon.
However I can already state one mans interpretation does not make it Islamic.
I'd rather trust my girlfriend who is Muslim, and many other Muslims I interact with regularly than a poet I've never heard of who is "interpreting" how he wants as opposed to those who follow to the word without making assumptions of what Allah meant.

Also it's not my interpretation, it is the way the Quran has been translated.
Not by me.
And like I said nowhere does it state that martyrdom is possible by killing innocent people with suicide bombs.
The Muhammad quote you posted does not state suicide bombers either... Just martyrdom, which I didn't say wasn't in the Quran, I explained what Martyrdom for Allah's cause entails according to Allah. Never a mention of suicide and killing innocent people... actually denouncing such actions.

Furthermore the Quran doesn't say go looking for martyrdom like a hero... It's states only if pushed into such actions should one contemplate reaction that leads towards martyrdom.
The point is to do what's right, and been seen as a martyr in Allah's eyes if necessary in your lifetime... Not to go out of your way to look for martyrdom among the community or the people around the world.

Peace.

edit on 17-2-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Furthermore...!!!

See thats the part your not understanding has nothing to so with translation and everything to do with interpretation especially in religions. I can give two people the same verse from the bible ask them what it means and get two completely different answers. To prevent this this is where the Hadiths come in its to help people interpret the Quran. And yes there is muslims that see the Quran entirely different than your girlfriend. I spent 3 yrs in Saudi arabia visited many countries in the middle east and ill go as far as saying her view is in the minority.I have lots of friends in the middle east but even they will be honest at times. Part of the problem is the Quran was dictated by a man who went through two different stages in hiis life and shaped his revelations accordingly. This is why the quran can be argued for peace and war. At first Muhammad was all for peace and it shows but the minute he gains power it becomes all about war. Even breaks rules like changing the Quran because for example muslim is not supposed to kill a muslim. So he amends it that makes allowances cant very well take over without using force can he.

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


Firstly I apologise...
I actually read it wrong and thought they were listing Anti-Qaeda among the dead... rather than quoting them. The comma had me concluding a list, rather than a cut off point.
That's my bad entirely.

I still stand by everything else I said.

In accordance with what you said about Christians blowing up abortion clinics... Do you actually feel that they and they're religion would be blamed on the beliefs they hold?
I personally feel that wouldn't even be brought up, especially not singled out as the cause.

We will end this here, a debate can only rage on for so long I guess.

Peace.

Double Post!!!

reply to post by dragonridr


I actually understand entirely that people misinterpret things!!!
My point is that Allah's word was/is not up for interpretation in the first place, attempting to interpret such is an absolute defiance of the original word!!
That's the decision of the corrupt who feel the need to add a double meaning to an original thought.
And doesn't hold up among the Muslims we have noted as following Islam properly.

When Allah says Martyrdom is correct if necessary to protect yourself, your land and the Holy...dying in battle at the opponents hand will lead to martyrdom...
For someone to then interpret that as "oh well let me blow myself up and some innocents" cannot be Islamic... No matter who is trying to indoctrinate others with it...

Again I wasn't saying it doesn't happen, I know it does and that's a damn shame... It just seems out of order for me to blame Islam & Muslims for someone else's actions...
In other words the culprit should be blamed, not the religion or it's followers!!!


ps The Hadiths are not interpretations of the Quran... They are the alleged actions and quotes of Muhammed written by, according to credible scholars, people who never met the man and accepted hear say.
It is why they are highly contested by Muslims worldwide.


Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by hounddoghowlie

 

In accordance with what you said about Christians blowing up abortion clinics... Do you actually feel that they and they're religion would be blamed on the beliefs they hold?
I personally feel that wouldn't even be brought up, especially not singled out as the cause.


Peace.

sorry i lied, just had to respond to the above.

yes i do, this is just a example.

Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who use Christian motivations or goals for their actions. As with other forms of religious terrorism, Christian terrorists have relied on interpretations of the tenets of faith – in this case, the Bible. Such groups have cited Old Testament and New Testament scriptures to justify violence and killing or to seek to bring about the "end times" described in the New Testament.[1]

The motive for anti-abortionist Scott Roeder murdering Wichita doctor George Tiller on May 31, 2009 was a belief that abortion is not only immoral, but also a form of murder under "God's law", irrespective of "man's law" in any country, and that this belief went "hand in hand" with his religious beliefs.[63][64] The group supporting Roeder proclaimed that any force used to protect the life of a born child is "legitimate to protect the life of an unborn child", and called on all Christians to "rise up" and "take action" against threats to Christianity and to unborn life.[65] Eric Robert Rudolph carried out the Centennial Olympic Park bombing in 1996, as well as subsequent attacks on an abortion clinic and on a lesbian nightclub. Michael Barkun, a professor at Syracuse University, considers Rudolph to likely fit the definition of a Christian terrorist. James A. Aho, a professor at Idaho State University, argues that religious considerations inspired Rudolph only in part.[66]

that is just part of the abortion side. there a whole lot more, as seen from this wiki page where this came from.
Christian Terrorism

also a further example would to be read some of the comments made about how intolerant and bad Christians are here in this forum.
just look at the recent post page here and you see many Christian Bashing Threads. even when Christians are the cause of the problem.

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


That's reasonable.
At least you are not a hypocrite who finds it easy to blame Islam.
I can't argue with that.

Thanks for the excerpt and link also (I look forward to reading it), I appreciate anything I can learn from.
I'm not here to say I know everything... Just what I do know, and what I feel.
I am more than happy to be shown evidence that corrects my own ill judgement.


Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by yuppa

 

"Ignore the essay posters"... That's a good way to DENY IGNORANCE isn't it!

Essay or not, every word was the truth... Backed up with sources.

Though to be fair I ignored most of your post because it was pretty much just verbal flatulence.
Hey at least I judged your post in content rather than length ehh!

Peace.

This will be your only reply from me to you EVER in ANY THREADS You post in in the future. I have 5 fingers on my hand. can you tell which one I am giving you right now? Sources? You post later on in the thread that you misread some sources. ALso I see you are biased as well due to having a muslim GF you yourself have said. POint is those terrorist(yes they are not freedom fighters because they go out of their way to hurt civilians) deserved to Die. And they did quite spectacularly and hilariously.

I dislike All terrorist though So do not even go there Trollboy.

UnBreakable
This will require a lot of virgins. Supposedly each jihadist gets 72 virgins when they die. They might have to start recruiting from Catholic girl's high schools.

Unless it really turns out they get 72 white raisins - there's some debate about that part. If it's a Syriac phrase, it's 72 white raisins or clear sweet drinks, depending on the idiom. So they might get there and end up with three cases of Sprite.

Reading this, I was reminded of a comment a friend of mine made a long time ago. This guy was a Special Forces medic who went back and picked up a charlie for some reason I can't fathom. It's a weird combination you never see.

Charlies are engineers who do the explosives among many other things. He once said "I'm the only guy I know who teaches people how to build and deploy bombs...and when they don't pay attention in class, I get to stitch up the stumps of the survivors"

reply to post by yuppa


I got one thing wrong...about two lines of the whole "essay"!!!
To which I was just answering questions I had been asked, I never went out of my way to draft such a lengthy post!!!

I couldn't care less about your fingers either!!!

Just to say I'm quite glad you won't be responding to me in "any thread" because you are ignorant and haven't denied it.
Rather you admitted it.

ps Biased? Troll?
You do realise my apology post contradicts both of these things right?

A few terrorists dead will not stop me from sleeping at night!
If I could have edited my posts I would have, the time limit wouldn't allow this.


ps ps ps By the way... Calling me "biased" because my missus & others I converse with, is basically saying that they're not proper Muslim's, and I am just sticking up for the Peaceful & True Muslims over the oxy-moronic "Extremists Muslims" who do not exist in the eyes of Allah... I am not biased, you are just I'll-informed about the religion!!!

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by yuppa

 

I got one thing wrong...about two lines of the whole "essay"!!!
To which I was just answering questions I had been asked, I never went out of my way to draft such a lengthy post!!!

I couldn't care less about your fingers either!!!

Just to say I'm quite glad you won't be responding to me in "any thread" because you are ignorant and haven't denied it.
Rather you admitted it.

ps Biased? Troll?
You do realise my apology post contradicts both of these things right?

A few terrorists dead will not stop me from sleeping at night!
If I could have edited my posts I would have, the time limit wouldn't allow this.


ps ps ps By the way... Calling me "biased" because my missus & others I converse with, is basically saying that they're not proper Muslim's, and I am just sticking up for the Peaceful & True Muslims over the oxy-moronic "Extremists Muslims" who do not exist in the eyes of Allah... I am not biased, you are just I'll-informed about the religion!!!

Peace.

All i know is it sounds to me you were trying to make excuses for there actions. Thats the biggest problem no one calls muslims on this lack of condemnation. See theres a big difference if some christian nut case blows up an abortion clinic churches talk about it they go on TV they tell you the church doesnt approve of this. For Islam they blow up some people and we hear nothing but crickets. Islam needs to clean up their mess unless of course they approve of their actions.

reply to post by dragonridr


No excuses I just genuinely read the transcript wrong.
They were just ISIS as I think you said previously.
I hold my hands up, apologise, and humbly agree there is no grief to be shown for these jerk offs.
I will not celebrate or laugh... But yes good riddance.

Plenty of Muslims speak out against this sort of thing though, just search for it and you'll find the people who denounce such actions.
Also a slight difference is Islam doesn't have an equivalent to the Catholics Vatican, nor the Protestant Church of England.
So it'd be difficult for "higher ups" to come out and speak on behalf of Islam... There is no equivalent to the Pope etc you see.
There is pretty much just Imams...and plenty of them aswell as just the lay people disregard such action as anti-Islamic.

muslimpeacecoalition.org...
If only mainstream media would promote this rally, imagine how powerful the cause could be!!!

This is another thing that people neglect to learn or understand, or simply are not told about Islam... No single person is in charge.
That's probably why the brainwashing is simple among certain followers.
However it also stops Thievery of the community.

Just the other day, on&off topic I read of a teenage girl stoned to death for having a Facebook account(worthy of its own thread if it hasn't been brought up already)...
I'd be stupid and a lowlife to condone or "excuse" such actions.


Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by dragonridr

 

No excuses I just genuinely read the transcript wrong.
They were just ISIS as I think you said previously.
I hold my hands up, apologise, and humbly agree there is no grief to be shown for these jerk offs.
I will not celebrate or laugh... But yes good riddance.

Plenty of Muslims speak out against this sort of thing though, just search for it and you'll find the people who denounce such actions.
Also a slight difference is Islam doesn't have an equivalent to the Catholics Vatican, nor the Protestant Church of England.
So it'd be difficult for "higher ups" to come out and speak on behalf of Islam... There is no equivalent to the Pope etc you see.
There is pretty much just Imams...and plenty of them aswell as just the lay people disregard such action as anti-Islamic.

muslimpeacecoalition.org...
If only mainstream media would promote this rally, imagine how powerful the cause could be!!!

This is another thing that people neglect to learn or understand, or simply are not told about Islam... No single person is in charge.
That's probably why the brainwashing is simple among certain followers.
However it also stops Thievery of the community.

Just the other day, on&off topic I read of a teenage girl stoned to death for having a Facebook account(worthy of its own thread if it hasn't been brought up already)...
I'd be stupid and a lowlife to condone or "excuse" such actions.


Peace.

Having lived in the middle east women are treated poorly in the middle east in the name of Islam. A large part of that has to do with when the Quran was written. Women were not considered equal to men and that attitude is still pervasive today in Islam. When i first was invited to dinner shortly after arriving in Saudi i being a stupid American didnt realize i wasnt supposed to talk to his wife. Caused her to be smacked and well for a minute thought i was going to end up in a fist fight. I apologized in between alot of words i didnt understand at the time he calmed down apologized and explained. It didnt occur to him that i would be unfamiliar with their customs this is the same man that gave me my first copy of the Koran as he made me sware to read it.Later i became sort of a brother to him since he was related to my wakeel and indeed was allowed to talk with her which i enjoyed she was one of the wisest people i knew. But you know when i asked her about certain things the response i would get like wouldnt she like to be able to o things on her own? Well this is the hardship I must bear towards showing her faith but their next life with Allah will be much better one. Kinda sad dont you think i learned to stay away from those topics.

reply to post by dragonridr


Terribly saddening. A real shame.
I cannot really comment on Middle Eastern policy too much, the Muslims I encounter are all from London, and this is what I base my opinion on.
I have read through the Quran, probably 1/3rd overall.
However I don't have an Arabic copy, I do have an App for my phone. How well this has been translated is anyone's guess, but the parts I read seemed to be about equality, whether commenting on social issues, or even quotations from Muhammed himself, or what he had been told was correct according to Allah.

Sounds a lot like they are governed by Sharia Law more so than the Quran.
Which on one hand I cannot judge, we do not govern ourselves with the Bible & I am assuming that Israel are not governed by The Torah.
However given my views on Sharia Law I probably wouldn't have another hand with which to judge.

Sorry, maybe my sense of humour is I suppose abit distasteful!!!
Though I feel I will be forgiven come judgement day.
Cannot say the same for those who say they follow Allah, yet ignore equality while targeting the innocent.

But yes, that is a very poignant message you have delivered... And again very saddening to hear.
A lot of changes needed worldwide.
The current topic is very much what needs to be dealt with in the Middle East.
How that is best solved is the difficult decision, nobody seems to have an answer just yet.

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Terribly saddening. A real shame.
I cannot really comment on Middle Eastern policy too much, the Muslims I encounter are all from London, and this is what I base my opinion on.
I have read through the Quran, probably 1/3rd overall.
However I don't have an Arabic copy, I do have an App for my phone. How well this has been translated is anyone's guess, but the parts I read seemed to be about equality, whether commenting on social issues, or even quotations from Muhammed himself, or what he had been told was correct according to Allah.

Sounds a lot like they are governed by Sharia Law more so than the Quran.
Which on one hand I cannot judge, we do not govern ourselves with the Bible & I am assuming that Israel are not governed by The Torah.
However given my views on Sharia Law I probably wouldn't have another hand with which to judge.

Sorry, maybe my sense of humour is I suppose abit distasteful!!!
Though I feel I will be forgiven come judgement day.
Cannot say the same for those who say they follow Allah, yet ignore equality while targeting the innocent.

But yes, that is a very poignant message you have delivered... And again very saddening to hear.
A lot of changes needed worldwide.
The current topic is very much what needs to be dealt with in the Middle East.
How that is best solved is the difficult decision, nobody seems to have an answer just yet.

Peace.

You actually bring up an interesting point do to the difficulties in translating arabic there are differences in translation so often the translator themselves alter the text. As well as there are different versions of the Quran itself because there was diffrent readers who passed it down seeing as it was originally verbal recitation. Let me say in Saudi Arabia they truly believe they have a duty to Allah to spread Islam throughout the world. Your view would be in the minority mostly in the area of Riyadh which has a major western influence.

reply to post by dragonridr


Yes pal, it is, I assume, the main problem with any scripture.
This is what will lead to misinterpretation over generations and separate countries.
That's guaranteed to lead to a rise in insurgency, maybe this sort of thing will happen more often to the culprits Inshallah!!!
It seems besides this case, the only good thing the ISIS have done is behead one of their own.
Maybe it is going downhill for these groups

I often find myself wondering who has the oldest known, well kept version of any Holy Book. & that I'd love to read through, with somebody capable of translating ancient language.
I'd imagine the Lexicon has changed drastically in all 3 Abrahamic religions, making this very difficult if it were a possibility.
My guess is well hidden, to be perfectly preserved as a best case scenario, but at worst, possibly to allow infiltration to an extent which will cause such tragic consequences of the suicide bombers actions!!!

My present feelings on Saudi Arabia, some would find me quite draconian.
I have no problem with anybody promoting their religion to the World. Tolerance is paramount IMO.
How people go about that is quite a different philosophy.
Saudi Arabia being quite horrific at spreading a peaceful message, tends to grind my gears.
I am not surprised to have a minority mindset when considering this.

That's not to stereotype the population either.
Personally I feel this is mainly due to The House Of Saud's conquest.
Their duty to spread Islam is correct.
It's my opinion that they have funded the wrong people across Afghanistan and the Country of the topic at hand Iraq, to keep the sectarian wars away from Mecca & Medina.
Probably to stop things like this occurring... en.m.wikipedia.org...

As the Holiest of Holy's in Islam, it probably works, however it's not very noble to do so in such a manner.

I apologise for digressing...
I can see this seems like plenty of conjecture on my part, but it's seems to make a lot of sense when I theorise on Middle Eastern troubles.


Peace.

reply to post by CharlieSpeirs


The problems in the middle east boil down to Sunni and Shia both have different interpretations and both think the other is wrong and willing to kill for it. Then we have US policy which is a joke we keep trying to pick a horse in the game and no matter which side you choose there is shall we say backlash. Both sides back terrorists and both sides try to sway world opinion. Through in the fact that the west has no idea how to handle this as evident by continually changing priorities not to mention who they back. First muslin brotherhood was terrorists now suddenly we are supplying them weapons. Al queda was fighting the russians they were friends then they turned and now there enemy's. We need to stop looking at terrorists as individuals and realize they are acting on behalf of governments. Now maybe this is just my opinion but id say after living there i can tell you the west needs to reevaluate who there friends are. As far as ISIS these people make al queda look like school boys were not done with them its going to get alot worse especially in Europe. This group has easy access to most of Europe and i fear in the near future we may see exactly what they can do.

If theyy are conducting training classes like the article suggest i fear the worst. Let us hope that im wrong.