How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Akragon
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

That's not entirely true brother...

A sacrifice that comes from within is pretty high on the scale...

True but that sacrifice is null and void if it includes killing an innocent man or beast. Or a guilty one for that matter.

Regards
DL

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This is how I live my life. Just because I want to be treated well does not mean that's the reason I treat others well. I simply treat them as I would want to be treated regardless of whether they dislike me or mistreat me in return.

If everyone followed that one simple rule, heaven would be on Earth. Unfortunately those in power have created the scapegoat where people believe that Jesus' death is all they need to reach heaven, good deeds be damned.

Two thumbs up for the good works you do here my friend.

You are correct on deeds and works just as Jesus said.

St James says that faith without works is dead. I agree and say the same for love. Love without works and deeds is dead.

With that in mind, and knowing that reciprocity is a big part of love, --- and that love cannot be true love without that reciprocity, --- can anyone here tell me how it is possible to love and be loved, by works and deeds, by and with an absentee God.

An absentee God cannot love us back and therefore it is impossible for us to love God or have him return it.

This logic seems sound. Right?

Regards
DL

jmdewey60
reply to post by o0oTOPCATo0o

 

I am not religious really at all, so maybe someone can clarify that you get into heaven "By the grace of god"
No good deed will get you in.

"Get into Heaven" is probably a shorthand way of saying that you will pass judgment and not "go to hell", which is also probably a shorthand way of saying going into some state of oblivion, meaning to cease to be a recognizable person.
What it is really talking about in the Bible is entrance into a "group of the saved", where in the Old Testament that meant being part of Israel, and in the New Testament it means the church.
We can not set up a salvation system to belong to ourselves, it took Jesus to do that, and it is his deeds that made it possible, and our not doing evil deeds that keeps us as a member of that association.

edit on 3-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

So you're saying that good deeds keep you within the "group of the saved" and within the salvation system of Jesus?
I can dig it.
The only part I do not agree with is that the "group of the saved" being the church. If your not a member of the church, would this expel you from the "group of the saved" regardless of deeds done?

GodIsRelative
I'll go there by God's grace or not at all.

Are you rejecting the notion of Jesus as your pass and scapegoat into heaven?

Are you rejecting the corner stone of Christianity? Human sacrifice?

Do you reject the notion that God sent his son to die for us?

Regards
DL

o0oTOPCATo0o

Greatest I am

o0oTOPCATo0o

Greatest I am

o0oTOPCATo0o
I am not religious really at all, so maybe someone can clarify that you get into heaven "By the grace of god"
No good deed will get you in.

So we should not bother with good deeds.

Thanks for your garbage view.

Regards
DL

Easy now pal. Read again. This time understand it.
***I am not religious really at all, so maybe someone can clarify that you get into heaven "By the grace of god"
No good deed will get you in.***
I'm not saying don't bother with good deeds. I'm saying food deeds are not what gets you into heaven. Geez. Maybe someone with a bible can back me up or something. Jesus told someone that as men, we can never do enough to get in to heaven.
All I was trying to say, no need to call my view garbage or anything. Especially because you misunderstood and now look foolish.

edit on 3-2-2014 by o0oTOPCATo0o because: (no reason given)

You are the foolish one when you do not listen to Jesus when he says that we will know his people by their works and deeds.

Regards
DL

Is that how he will know them? How will they get into haven though? Just be at the pearly gates like "Jesus knows me!! He knows me from my work and deeds!"
If charity got you into heaven, people would do it, just to get into heaven. Then it would no longer be charity.

All altruistic acts also serve our selfish gene. What makes it an altruistic act is that the self-serving part is kept much smaller than the serving others part.

Fear not thought what Jesus will think as he identifies you, remember that Jesus is in you, and most people have their hearts in the right place by instinct and default to cooperation and not competition.

Note how fantastically well the world is doing. All the major markers for evil are down and dropping as we get more civilized.

Sure we have a ways to go but we are on the right road.

Regards
DL

OptimusSubprime
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

If God does something then it is righteous, regardless of what it is. Humans deem other people innocent, however there are no innocent people in God's eyes because we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). God is not capable of sinning, or else He wouldn't be God. Sin is a human condition. There is only one way into heaven, through Jesus Christ.

If your meaning by trying to become like Jesus the I agree and reaching a higher level of wisdom. If you mean Jesus in name only then I do not have any use for that garment of religious clothing.

And sin is not a natural human condition. It is a thing taught by the lack of human progress to a higher level. The sins of the old generation continuing in the next generation. The blind teaching blindness to their offspring. Give me 5 "angels" in a place and a student soul that is disconnected from everything else and see the student soul shine amazingly bright after a while.

reply to post by Greatest I am

No. What was expressed was rejected by God. Why have you forsaken me?

That is an essential part of the Suffering Servant passion play in Isaiah 53.
God rejects him, and it is not 'till after he is dead that God changes His mind and accepts him.
So that part is the gospel writer's idea of what that character would say under those circumstances, which is to quote an appropriate line from Psalms.

ChuckNasty

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

I don't expect anything back, that speaks nothing of what I want though. Even Jesus said he desired mercy, how is that any different from me desiring others to treat me well? Others treating me well is showing mercy, so my statement is not wrong.

The part of expecting nothing back.... Desiring others to return the favor, of treating you well, is not expecting nothing back..

Your statement (and thinking) is incorrect.

It is not that his statement is 100% incorrect. It is that there is a garmented character flaw in the merit seeking that have not been removed yet. But you cannot judge people who are doing good, by limiting their free will for the good of others (whole). What might be an act that is hard to an ego centered mind will in time be easy to the mind changed by doing good even for garmented reasons. One step at a time to become the being that is garment free and do it for the right reasons. Even a step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction even if the right reasoning is not yet there.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Was he doing something righteous when he says this in Job 3;2. Satan moved me to destroy without cause?

Is it righteous to kill and destroy innocent humans without a just cause?

How about when he tortured King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it, --- all because he was angry with David.

Was that God acting with righteousness?

How about the innocent first born of Egypt? Was that God acting with righteousness?

Those are stories, and they make certain points that the stories serve to illustrate.
In Job, we wonder why people seem so pious and extravagant in their offerings to God, and how those same people would act in different circumstances.
In 2 Samuel, there may be a backstory that we are not exactly aware of which is the true identity of Bathsheba and her relationship to the taking of Jerusalem from the king of the Jebusites, where maybe God was not too happy with his compromises in the political negotiations that would have been inevitable if he had not just outright murdered every single person in the city.
In Exodus it is dealing with the question if it is possible for any world power to stand in the way of God's will about His creation of a people to be His own.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Why have you forsaken me?

It is not righteous to pay yourself a bribe to corrupt your judgement when you are a judge is it?

God made an offering to us, the people of this world, in order to have us love Him.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

So I guess if vanity is expecting something as a reward, you do not expect to get into heaven?

How exactly do you plan on having heaven on Earth if you do not work towards it? No one has worked towards it since Jesus was here, that's why we're in this situation today. They didn't work for it because they believed Jesus would come back and do it for them, a perfect pacification method put in place by those in power, the same ones who put the bible together.

edit on 2/4/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I know you are trying to prove a point that the scapegoat idea in the bible creates stagnation and manipulation and I can agree with that. But going as far as saying that there have not been workers sent here on Earth since Jesus is an extreme over exaggeration.

A few examples of those that answered the call.
Martin Luther (Protestant) came. Nanak came. Rumi came. Mother Teresa came. Mikao Usui came. Martin Luther King came. And these are some of the ones who show themselves. Most stay hidden. The right soul answering the call at the right time.

reply to post by o0oTOPCATo0o

The only part I do not agree with is that the "group of the saved" being the church. If your not a member of the church, would this expel you from the "group of the saved" regardless of deeds done?

The church means the congregation.
In the Old Testament, the congregation was what was called Israel after crossing the Red Sea and standing before the manifestation of God at Mount Sinai, whether this was an actual historical event or not.
We stand at the foot of the Cross even though we are not physically there in person.
Spiritually we all are there at the cross, at that manifestation of God's intervention in the world, as his congregation.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus is speaking of the animals that were sacrificed for thousands of years to the OT god. They were innocent yet they were condemned to death. If they knew what that saying actually meant they wouldn't have sacrificed at all. Jesus was clearly against any kind of sacrifice.

I absolutely agree with you.

The sacrifice issue, is just one of many reflective themes, throughout the New Testament. Jesus is constantly trying to point out to men, what God’s real Laws were, and what were just traditions of men. But unfortunately, men just didn’t understand…

IMO It really all goes back to the time of Cain and Able. Cain's sacrifices were at one point, said to be unacceptable to God. But in reality, God was never interested in the sacrifices themselves, but only in the heart condition, of the giver of the sacrifices/offerings. And even if those stories are literal, poetic, or allegorical, they still get the same point across.

I think men were really the ones who created the offerings/sacrifices, because they wanted to honour God, in some way. And the only reason God allowed it to continue, (up to a point, because he spoke through prophets saying he didn’t require sacrifice etc..) was because of the heart intention behind them. Which means, mercy was never bought through sacrifices, but only through the intention of a mans heart…

I think some prophets thought sacrifices came from God, but many other prophets, throughout the Old Testament, tried to get this idea across, that God did not require sacrifices of animals. But the great thing is, we know where Jesus stands on this issue, because he quotes those prophets words, which were against sacrifices…

Btw – I know, you already know this to be true…


- JC

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

No. What was expressed was rejected by God. Why have you forsaken me?

That is an essential part of the Suffering Servant passion play in Isaiah 53.
God rejects him, and it is not 'till after he is dead that God changes His mind and accepts him.
So that part is the gospel writer's idea of what that character would say under those circumstances, which is to quote an appropriate line from Psalms.

That is the speculation but it breaks down when contemplating the notion that a man near death would start quoting poetry.

Do you really think that God's perfect justice is subject to bribes, ransoms and sacrifices?

Do you think a noble God would demand the death of his son instead of just forgiving us in some moral way?

Regards
DL

jmdewey60
reply to post by o0oTOPCATo0o

 

The only part I do not agree with is that the "group of the saved" being the church. If your not a member of the church, would this expel you from the "group of the saved" regardless of deeds done?

The church means the congregation.
In the Old Testament, the congregation was what was called Israel after crossing the Red Sea and standing before the manifestation of God at Mount Sinai, whether this was an actual historical event or not.
We stand at the foot of the Cross even though we are not physically there in person.
Spiritually we all are there at the cross, at that manifestation of God's intervention in the world, as his congregation.

I see. Thanks

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Was he doing something righteous when he says this in Job 3;2. Satan moved me to destroy without cause?

Is it righteous to kill and destroy innocent humans without a just cause?

How about when he tortured King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it, --- all because he was angry with David.

Was that God acting with righteousness?

How about the innocent first born of Egypt? Was that God acting with righteousness?

Those are stories, and they make certain points that the stories serve to illustrate.
In Job, we wonder why people seem so pious and extravagant in their offerings to God, and how those same people would act in different circumstances.
In 2 Samuel, there may be a backstory that we are not exactly aware of which is the true identity of Bathsheba and her relationship to the taking of Jerusalem from the king of the Jebusites, where maybe God was not too happy with his compromises in the political negotiations that would have been inevitable if he had not just outright murdered every single person in the city.
In Exodus it is dealing with the question if it is possible for any world power to stand in the way of God's will about His creation of a people to be His own.

One of many possibilities for each instance.

There is a good reason why Rabbi Volpe said that anything written before 1,000 C E should be completely ignored.

Regards
DL

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Why have you forsaken me?

It is not righteous to pay yourself a bribe to corrupt your judgement when you are a judge is it?

God made an offering to us, the people of this world, in order to have us love Him.

That is your justification for accepting a corrupt Judge is it?

Strange that an omnipotent all powerful God would corrupt himself for a little love from men.

What an idiot you seem to believe in. Then again, I am not sure what you believe.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Strange that an omnipotent all powerful God would corrupt himself for a little love from men.

We are the ones who ultimately benefit from a reconciliation between God and man.
Left on our own without God, we would all perish forever.
God would have the benefit of knowing that His efforts were not in vain.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Do you think a noble God would demand the death of his son instead of just forgiving us in some moral way?

I don't see it as a demand like one person has a higher rank than the other, and gives orders to his subordinate.
I think what the New Testament says is that before the incarnation, they were equals in the heavenly council where the proto-Jesus accepted the role as the servant while he lived on earth as a man.

Jesus forgave people, and people around him thought that was outrageous and presumptuous but it was Jesus' ability to read people's hearts and to know that they were truly repentant and were not going to continue their old path of sin.
Jesus didn't have to die first before he could forgive sins.
Forgiveness is not contingent on Jesus' death.
Jesus died to judge the sinful and satanic world system and to show us that as unattractive as he was as a condemned and executed criminal, he was later exalted to the highest state that there is, Lord.
We should take heart in that and hope that we can be accepted by God also even though we may be mired down in this life.
Of course we need to get on with that uplifting through God's power now, and not on the day we die.

reply to post by Joecroft


I agree with everything except the implication that God could have intervened at some point to stop the sacrifices but instead decided not to. I don't think God has any intent or will besides our own. His will is our will and that is free will. God is not some outside observer in my opinion, he lives within and experiences through us.

We seem to be on the same wavelength with most things my friend. We may not agree on everything but that's to be expected, we are both on our own path but I don't think they lie too far apart from one another.