How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

Maybe I misspoke, but who doesn't want to be treated good? It's mutual, everyone wants to be treated good, no one is an exception to that rule.

Matthew 5
12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Jesus says to rejoice because of the reward we will receive, so I don't think my want for good treatment is misplaced.

Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, so that they may be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to ungrateful and evil people. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Pretty much sums up that you are incorrect. You should never expect anything back. That is being vain.

reply to post by Akragon


I'm speaking of death sacrifices, the type that the OT god demanded.

I totally agree internal sacrifices are needed, you have to sacrifice your ego and selfishness to name a few.

Also sacrificing your wealth is another big part, but unfortunately in today's world that's not possible, money is too ingrained in today's society to be able to live a decent life without it. Having a few coins in your pocket, enough to live comfortably, is acceptable in my opinion, it's when you start hoarding it that a problem arises.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I understand. Maybe you are sincerely good, maybe not. Its more of a rhetorical thing.

But, if you examine the Bible as a whole, you can not disprove that the biblical Jesus was a scapegoat. I tell you with confidence that its not up for debate any more than the color of the sky is. All you can do is take verses out of context, and that is what has kept this conversation going.

reply to post by ChuckNasty


I don't expect anything back, that speaks nothing of what I want though. Even Jesus said he desired mercy, how is that any different from me desiring others to treat me well? Others treating me well is showing mercy, so my statement is not wrong.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

You know, I would make the case that 'Jesus died for our sins' for you, but somehow I think you would just cook up some "symbolic" interpretation, that means a whole lot of nothing, to explain it away.

I already said a few times that it does say that in the Bible.
The problem is in what you interpret that to mean.
I'm using actual biblical teachings to explain it.
You seem to be using slogans from pop-culture ideology.

The resident souls of Abraham's Bosom aka paradise was evacuated by Jesus when He was resurrected. Go back and read the Gospels (a little slower this time), its there.

Do you realize that this doesn't even make sense?
Why would they want to leave if they are already in paradise?

Sanctification means nothing more than to separate from the rest.

But what does it mean in its New Testament context?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Jesus' own words prove the scapegoat concept as false, as I and others have pointed out.

Of course if you take the bible as a whole you can't disprove it, that's basically the entire concept after the gospels. But taking the bible as a whole to prove the bible is circular logic and that's assuming the bible is the word of god, which it isn't.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

I don't expect anything back, that speaks nothing of what I want though. Even Jesus said he desired mercy, how is that any different from me desiring others to treat me well? Others treating me well is showing mercy, so my statement is not wrong.

The part of expecting nothing back.... Desiring others to return the favor, of treating you well, is not expecting nothing back..

Your statement (and thinking) is incorrect.

reply to post by ChuckNasty


I guess that means Jesus was incorrect too because even he desired mercy as I and others have already pointed out.

Desiring something is not the same as expecting something. I desire world peace, that doesn't mean I expect to get it though.

reply to post by ChuckNasty

Our good deeds and actions alone won't grant a pass into heaven. Doing a good deed with expectations of heaven isn't the message.

But it could get you into one of the better rings of hell.
I don't see where you get your idea from but not from the Bible.
What Jesus was talking against is doing things for the transitory rewards of this world.
There is nothing wrong with working for heavenly rewards, and Jesus actually recommends it.

jmdewey60
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

Our good deeds and actions alone won't grant a pass into heaven. Doing a good deed with expectations of heaven isn't the message.

But it could get you into one of the better rings of hell.
I don't see where you get your idea from but not from the Bible.
What Jesus was talking against is going things for the transitory rewards of this world.
There is nothing wrong with working for heavenly rewards, and Jesus actually recommends it.

Doing good deeds because you want to...is the message. Shouldn't expect a payment for doing what is right..right?

I quoted luke in response to his quote of Matthew. His view was one sided. The meaning is clear.. To those who can see it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Believing that playing nice gets you into heaven is circular logic. God is not interested in what we can produce, only what His son produced for us. The picture is Christocentric, not humancentric.

And i still dont get why someone who rejects the bible argues about the life of Jesus, who is the center piece of the whole thing.

Is it for kicks? Are you getting Heaven points for showing us lost Christians the truth? We are defending our faith. But if good works is all it takes, then why assume that we are lacking?

Am I incapable of being good just because I believe Jesus died for me? What He did, no one can measure up to.

Why make an issue of it in the first place?

reply to post by ChuckNasty


19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

I guess that means Jesus was incorrect too because even he desired mercy as I and others have already pointed out.

Desiring something is not the same as expecting something. I desire world peace, that doesn't mean I expect to get it though.

edit on 2/4/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You are not Jesus..

...how is that any different from me desiring others to treat me well?

your quote in that statement is not similar to the one above..

The one above is night and day different that the 2nd quoted one. One is for yourself, the other is not.

If you see them as the same, then God be with you. No man can help your thinking.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I guess that means Jesus used circular logic as well. Jesus taught good works hence "love your enemy" and "love your neighbor as yourself" and "lend without expecting anything in return" and "forgive others to be forgiven". That's ALL his message was about, nothing about a sin sacrifice or any kind of sacrifice, he even went as far as to agree that loving your neighbor is more important than ANY sacrifice, including the one he supposedly made.

You are ignoring the man you claim to believe in, taking Paul's word over his. Paul was not Jesus and did not speak for him, Jesus warned of people like him and said not to follow them, yet you still follow him and ignore Jesus' words.

I don't believe in the bible, I believe in the red words, they are divinely inspired, not the things around them.

As for not being able to be good, Paul says that no one is good, not even you.

Romans 3
10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is good -- not even one.

He agrees that no one is good, so according to him Jesus' message was in vain because Jesus' central message was on how to be a good person.

reply to post by ChuckNasty


If you actually understood Jesus' message you wouldn't be saying that. Like I said earlier, Jesus is the good within all of us.

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

"That day" obviously hasn't come for you yet, but it has for me and many others as well. I have realized the good that is within me, Christians have not because they believe they are full of sin. If you believe it then you become it, I do not believe it.

If desiring other people to treat me well is somehow bad then so is Jesus desiring mercy a.k.a. good treatment.

I would wager I'm more familiar with the bible than the majority of Christians. I have studied it and have come out with my own meaning, Christians do not study it and take others meanings as their own. Christians do not seek therefore they do not find.

jmdewey60
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

Our good deeds and actions alone won't grant a pass into heaven. Doing a good deed with expectations of heaven isn't the message.

But it could get you into one of the better rings of hell.
I don't see where you get your idea from but not from the Bible.
What Jesus was talking against is going things for the transitory rewards of this world.
There is nothing wrong with working for heavenly rewards, and Jesus actually recommends it.

Doing the work of Christ and doing the work to give you a passage into heaven are not the same.

My ideas are 100% from the New Testimate. Jesus wanted us to hear the word and work towards a heaven on earth, not doing work for yourself. We should pray for Gods work to be done on Earth, as in Heaven.

....nothing in there about doing it for yourself and yourself alone. Only vanity expects a reward.

Not sure where you get your ideas from.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Jesus taught that first the inside of the cup must be cleaned before the outside is polished.

First you claim that you are good enough for heaven, but say Im not because no one is good.

So I guess by your book Christians are the only ones incapable of good.

For someone who believes in Jesus' words, you sound an awful lot like the guys that conspired to murder Him.

So what is cleaner? A shiney cup or a cup shiney inside and out.

reply to post by ChuckNasty

Doing good deeds because you want to...is the message. Shouldn't expect a payment for doing what is right..right?

The "reward" could be that the world is a better place in a next life, thanks in part to what you have done in this life.
I'm just saying, that may be, the afterlife does not necessarily mean literal heaven but could be just another day in the land of the living.

I quoted luke in response to his quote of Matthew. His view was one sided. The meaning is clear.. To those who can see it.

I had read that before making a reply to your earlier post.
I think that you are just seeing it how you want to.

reply to post by ChuckNasty


So I guess if vanity is expecting something as a reward, you do not expect to get into heaven?

How exactly do you plan on having heaven on Earth if you do not work towards it? No one has worked towards it since Jesus was here, that's why we're in this situation today. They didn't work for it because they believed Jesus would come back and do it for them, a perfect pacification method put in place by those in power, the same ones who put the bible together.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


When did I say you weren't good? All I did was point out what Paul said. I believe you're a good person but the book you believe in says otherwise.

You must clean the inside of your cup in the same way you must purify your soul. The way to purify your soul is to love others and forgive others. Once you do that, the outside will become clean on its own, once you purify or clean your soul you will show good works on the outside.

I'm nothing like the people who killed Jesus, I take that as an insult. You accept his death as necessary so I'd wager you are more like them than I am.