How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Strange that an omnipotent all powerful God would corrupt himself for a little love from men.

We are the ones who ultimately benefit from a reconciliation between God and man.
Left on our own without God, we would all perish forever.
God would have the benefit of knowing that His efforts were not in vain.

If he were real, of course the strong would be man's slave and servant. Do you think a God needs slaves or servants or anything else?

Like my apotheosis had the Godhead serving me as teacher, any God worth his title here would come to serve, not to rule. He would be under our law, not us under his.

Regards
DL

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Do you think a noble God would demand the death of his son instead of just forgiving us in some moral way?

I don't see it as a demand like one person has a higher rank than the other, and gives orders to his subordinate.
I think what the New Testament says is that before the incarnation, they were equals in the heavenly council where the proto-Jesus accepted the role as the servant while he lived on earth as a man.

Jesus forgave people, and people around him thought that was outrageous and presumptuous but it was Jesus' ability to read people's hearts and to know that they were truly repentant and were not going to continue their old path of sin.
Jesus didn't have to die first before he could forgive sins.
Forgiveness is not contingent on Jesus' death.
Jesus died to judge the sinful and satanic world system and to show us that as unattractive as he was as a condemned and executed criminal, he was later exalted to the highest state that there is, Lord.
We should take heart in that and hope that we can be accepted by God also even though we may be mired down in this life.
Of course we need to get on with that uplifting through God's power now, and not on the day we die.

edit on 4-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

"Jesus died to judge the sinful and satanic world system"

Pfft. He created it by your beliefs so he would have to find it perfect.

Scriptures do say that all of God's works are perfect so they either stay that way or God made them defective.

Your choice.

Either way, for God to punish us for being the way he created us would be unjust and we would reject his unjust judgement.

We are the supreme beings here. Not an absentee God.

Regards
DL

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Joecroft

 

I agree with everything except the implication that God could have intervened at some point to stop the sacrifices but instead decided not to. I don't think God has any intent or will besides our own. His will is our will and that is free will. God is not some outside observer in my opinion, he lives within and experiences through us.

We seem to be on the same wavelength with most things my friend. We may not agree on everything but that's to be expected, we are both on our own path but I don't think they lie too far apart from one another.

I agree that god is more connected to each soul than we are told in Religion. I think Jesus real sacrifice was not dying at the cross but falling to be born and spend time on earth instead of being where Jesus belongs.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

This person to me understand a love/hate relationship of trying to help. while at the same time being annoyed at the lack of progress and the seed not becoming the thing you expected it would if it grew in perfect soil.

Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

I think above is not only material possessions but ego death (transformation of ego from one state to another) also.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I agree with everything except the implication that God could have intervened at some point to stop the sacrifices but instead decided not to.

Well, I believe God did try to intervene, by speaking through some of the Old Testament prophets, about sacrifices not being required. That’s really all I meant there. Unfortunately men just didn’t listen, although some clearly did. Jesus could see it clearly…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
We seem to be on the same wavelength with most things my friend. We may not agree on everything but that's to be expected, we are both on our own path but I don't think they lie too far apart from one another.

When I first started my search, I was a spiritual baby. And even on this website, I humbled myself, by listening to what others had to say; which if you’ve seen anything of my previous posts lol, you’ll see that, that was not something that was easy for me to do. But God gave me clues, signs and synchronicities to follow.

I recognize truth in your words, not because I was taught to believe, or accept it, by men, but because God showed me, that those things are true.

Truth must be sought out, by asking oneself the right questions. When people just accept, they are not really seeking the truth…but God knows when I person is ready to seek the truth…and will help guide them into it…

The saying …”When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive”, is very applicable here. And of course, great teachers, don’t try to force their opinions and beliefs onto others, but use a gentle form of reasoning, understanding and Wisdom, to help guide others…

So like yourself, I only really focus and derive my truth, from Jesus words, in the red letters…And various Gnostic texts, as you’ve probably seen, from my other posts etc…

And I agree, we are not too far apart at all, I think at this stage lol, I can safely call you a brother. And we may be on our own paths, but I think our pathways are crossing and intersecting, in any ways…


- JC

LittleByLittle
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Joecroft

LittleByLittIe I agree that god is more connected to each soul than we are told in Religion. I think Jesus real sacrifice was not dying at the cross but falling to be born and spend time on earth instead of being where Jesus belongs.
This person to me understand a love/hate relationship of trying to help. while at the same time being annoyed at the lack of progress and the seed not becoming the thing you expected it would if it grew in perfect soil.

Oh you would not believe how it interpets its sacrifice (one of unrealistic expectation) for all of the wrong reasons.

LittleByLittle I think above is not only material possessions but ego death (transformation of ego from one state to another) also.

Ego has to be dismantled. Jesus studied in India and other parts of the Orient during the 'missing years'; and those belief systems included the Hindu/Buddist. He was an Essene so already understood very esoteric knowledge. When he started his ministry in Judea the first thing! he spoke of was to give up material posessions (what the first sign of Egocentric behavior); the aquisition of material products. Guess what in the Non Physical World Reality, the one he continually tried to explain as the "kingdom" is just like this one, lighter in density is all and many more freedoms allowed to be expressed. All of the same laws of morality apply; ITS THE SAME AS THIS just lighter AND we never grow old. Wrong sub-forum in RFT, if you have had the experience of an OOBE; and traveled to the REAL REALITY of where we come from, you would never read 'bible scripture' again as you do not need the nursery stories to placate/massage the ego. I can hear it now, why have we become so dense matterform wise; to take it to limits that are needed in the understanding of how the Physical Matter Reality works with the Non Physical Matter Reality. They work in tandem (thermal dynamics applies).

reply to post by Greatest I am

If he were real, of course the strong would be man's slave and servant.

Like a bull god?
Make an image of a big bull or an ox and say that is your god?

Do you think a God needs slaves or servants or anything else?

According to human thinking, politically, back in older times of pagan temples, you would of course need servants to operate the physical apparatus of the Temple, which would be necessary to draw the god presence down to you and a divine palace suitable for a dwelling of a god, all things that absorb a portion of a people's wealth to maintain.
I think that Jesus was against such a thing and was happy enough to have a meeting hall where believers could gather and praise god with prayer and song and readings from good books on the holy life that we should be following.

Like my apotheosis had the Godhead serving me as teacher, any God worth his title here would come to serve, not to rule. He would be under our law, not us under his.

God is a spirit that we do not rule.
A spirit or spiritual being of course could assist you (or anyone else) in a lot of things and it would be part of the greater "god" existence.

reply to post by Greatest I am

"Jesus died to judge the sinful and satanic world system"

Pfft. He created it by your beliefs so he would have to find it perfect.

I don't know what "beliefs" you may be referring to.

Scriptures do say that all of God's works are perfect so they either stay that way or God made them defective.

Your choice.

I think that the universe at large is "defective".
That may not be the best term for it.
"Not perfect" may be better if you want to use the terminology of biblical times.
"Perfect" would mean that it had reached maturity where all of its goals had been met.
I see the universe itself as being in a relatively early state where things are not quite all the way it should be yet.

Either way, for God to punish us for being the way he created us would be unjust and we would reject his unjust judgement.

Life may seem like a punishment to a lot of people.
Yesterday I was having a conversation with a man in a wheelchair. I had no idea why he was but he ended up telling me, not in too much detail but that he was a finish carpenter working on a scaffold and had fallen off.
Was his being mostly paralyzed from the waist, down, a punishment?
It was just one of the possibilities when taking a substantial fall, which would include death.
We live in a cause and effect material world and I believe that at some point we elected to participate in such a world and things can and will happen.

We are the supreme beings here. Not an absentee God.

Ultimately we are responsible for our own fates, in a long term, group sort of way, but God has added things into the mix to help out with that.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

If he were real, of course the strong would be man's slave and servant.

Like a bull god?
Make an image of a big bull or an ox and say that is your god?

Do you think a God needs slaves or servants or anything else?

According to human thinking, politically, back in older times of pagan temples, you would of course need servants to operate the physical apparatus of the Temple, which would be necessary to draw the god presence down to you and a divine palace suitable for a dwelling of a god, all things that absorb a portion of a people's wealth to maintain.
I think that Jesus was against such a thing and was happy enough to have a meeting hall where believers could gather and praise god with prayer and song and readings from good books on the holy life that we should be following.

Like my apotheosis had the Godhead serving me as teacher, any God worth his title here would come to serve, not to rule. He would be under our law, not us under his.

God is a spirit that we do not rule.
A spirit or spiritual being of course could assist you (or anyone else) in a lot of things and it would be part of the greater "god" existence.

You are only experiencing a 'demi god' manifested in the dumb downs or compartmentalizations of the 'absolute unbounded awareness'. This is a digital awareness just trying to organize itself. Demi-gods are further down in the concept material matter organization. Smaller denser compartmentalized units. Those you think of as your 'Gods' are just a bit higher in awareness (lighter in frequency) than you and totally took advantage of civilization building etc. When will you start saying WHEN, to these Egotistical Idiot God Constructs (not saying they never existed), they as (false Gods suceeded) you need to be jailed NOW in the higher realm as manipulators of this race; as they created it and are still running roughshod all over this paradigm.

reply to post by Greatest I am

A scapegoat is someone you "blame" for something. IF they get you into HEAVEN....you'd THANK THEM!

mysterioustranger
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

A scapegoat is someone you "blame" for something. IF they get you into HEAVEN....you'd THANK THEM!

....think you just put 10 pages of responses into the dirt.

vethumanbeing

You are only experiencing a 'demi god' manifested in the dumb downs or compartmentalizations of the 'absolute unbounded awareness'. This is a digital awareness just trying to organize itself. Demi-gods are further down in the concept material matter organization. Smaller denser compartmentalized units.

Since I have not been outside my body that I know of since birth I do not have any information about any Demi-Gods. But since all are bound by the golden rule, even these so called Demi-God will have to fix what they break.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

. . . these Egotistical Idiot God Constructs (not saying they never existed), they as (false Gods suceeded) . . .

I was just trying to figure out what Greatest I Am was talking about.
He was saying something about serving God.
That was the ancient concept where some people thought that way, I don't personally, as I agree with Jesus.

Simple I plan to sacrifice myself for the life of another... There's my free pass to heaven right there, have you seen the movie "this is the end"?

reply to post by Greatest I am



There are no good people. They don't exist. There are righteous people, but even they were evil once. This world is fallen and Satan is the god of this world, according to God.

Well, there was that one guy a long time ago - but they nailed him to the cross. That was God's Son. So far, there has been a total of 1 person who never sinned.

If all humans were not evil, God's Son would have never been tortured to death.

Since all humans are evil, God sent his Son to be tortured by us so that we would have a chance at redemption.

That doesn't mean we are redeemed of our own merit, nor by scapegoating. We can not blame Satan for our fall, because we chose to disobey God when we still had full knowledge of the choice and free will. So there is no scapegoat. We are to blame. Well, actually, our descendants are to blame originally, but we have all chosen to sin after that.

I understand the premise of this thread and it is void of logic given the context of the situation. Seems like you just don't like the situation you are in. I can't blame you for that, I don't like it either. But I am not going to create a SCAPEGOAT and blame God for my situation, and neither will I blame Satan. I am the one who sinned, and repeatedly at that.

Another thing - YOU do not define morals. YOU do not define good and evil. Truth is not relative. To believe as such is to believe you are a god, and if you believe that - God help you.

jheated5
Simple I plan to sacrifice myself for the life of another... There's my free pass to heaven right there, have you seen the movie "this is the end"?

You are referring to baptism by blood.

I wouldn't bet my eternity on baptism by blood, although it might be true.

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

There are no good people. They don't exist. There are righteous people, but even they were evil once.

You are making an oxymoron, that somehow people can be "righteous" while at the same time not actually being good.
Are you saying that there is a kind of righteousness that a person can have as an individual while at the same time going about committing sins?
IF so, what is the basis of what to you makes this claim true?

This world is fallen and Satan is the god of this world, according to God.

I realize that this is an opinion that some people hold, but how exactly do you personally know that this is what God thinks?

Well, there was that one guy a long time ago - . . .
. . . Since all humans are evil, . . .

Which one of these statements are true?
1. One person, at least that we know of, was not "evil".
2. All people are "evil".

That doesn't mean we are redeemed of our own merit, nor by scapegoating. We can not blame Satan for our fall, because we chose to disobey God when we still had full knowledge of the choice and free will.

But that is not the case then, is it?
Did Adam and Eve know that the result would be billions of descendants who would live miserable wretched lives and then suffer and die?
I don't think that the Garden of Eden story was written to be a study on the theme of free will.
I think it is a morality tale about why things can go bad and the world is not everything that it could possibly be, thanks to people being lured off by false promises of special delights while ignoring the proper authority that was gifted to them to be their lord.

. . . are to blame originally, but we have all chosen to sin after that.

If mysteriously 100% of people chose that, wouldn't that make you suspect that perhaps, they really didn't have a choice?

I understand the premise of this thread and it is void of logic given the context of the situation.

Since it appears that you are an expert on logic, could you grace us with a description of where the fallacy of the OP's argument lies?

reply to post by FreeWillAnomaly

You are referring to baptism by blood.

I wouldn't bet my eternity on baptism by blood, although it might be true.

It worked for Jesus because he was interrupted by the forces of evil while carrying out the will of the Father.
Anyone who fights in a war can use this sort of justification, that he is somehow saving someone else's life.
It that was an effective justification, then you could believe in going to Valhalla.
A correct justified death as a baptism of blood (in my opinion) is a baptism in the blood of Jesus, which is a figurative way of saying that you suffer persecution for spreading the gospel of Jesus and die like Jesus did, for the sake of telling the truth.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Before I respond to all of that, I have to ask if you believe the Word of God to be the Bible.

I do know these things to be true, but first I need to know if you believe the Word. Please don't make the translation/interpretation argument, because the Word is interpreted by God (God said this in the Bible - that the Bible is of no human interpretation and you learn things precept on precept line upon line). Humans can not interpret the Bible (although many have tried). Yes, translated by humans, but we can get to that in a minute if you want. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

reply to post by jmdewey60


For instance, if you die to save the life of Hitler - I am certain it would not count as baptism by blood.

If you are martyred for Jesus - yes. But you only know that because He said so. And on that topic - being decapitated for Jesus name = the greatest reward in Heaven (if you believe the Bible). Looks like a lot of people from our time are going to get the greatest reward there is. They are calling this the age of Martyrs. Of course, we are pretty comfortable over here in America thanks to freedom of religion. Not so in other places.

But then come all the what-ifs and in between that we can not judge.

jmdewey60

I think that Jesus was against such a thing and was happy enough to have a meeting hall where believers could gather and praise god with prayer and song and readings from good books on the holy life that we should be following..

+ 1

When two are gathered --- anywhere ---in my name I am there.

Regards
DL