If you are Christian, please answer me this (help)

reply to post by Akragon


I can't believe that because Jesus came not to change the law but to fulfill it.. so the OT God has to be genuine. I just think the Hebrews had a different set of laws governing them, unlike others, because the Hebrew were the chosen, the first born liniage, that sorta thing. I don't buy into the whole OT vs NT god thing. I believe they are one and the same. I do think that the NT, power, or the crown was kinda given over to Jesus in a way where God may have stood back to let him take charge but the order of power still exists.

But as i said, I'm always learning. I really have no idea about any of it. That's why it facinates me so much.

reply to post by CleanCare

Well that's the crux of religion.

The deity is usually THE CREATOR.

And you ... well, you're just the creation.

He is THE POTTER
And you're just the clay.

He is THE MASTER
And you're just a slave.

That's how it works, at least in theory.
In practice there's a bunch of clergy, pastors and gurus who put their behinds firmly between the lump of clay and "The Potter".

reply to post by CleanCare


I dont know op... as of your post Im done with it.
/deadfaith sorry. Good luck with your search.

reply to post by StallionDuck


You don't have to understand the bible, just the gospels...

A good portion of the bible is just reiterated myth and legend from earlier cultures...

And as far as "satan" goes... IF he exists he is not what is depicted in the bible...

The whole story of this fallen angel that wanted to be God is nonsense... IF he exists at all, he is Gods greatest ally, not this red dude with a pitch fork waiting around the corner trying to get you to sin...

His purpose was given by God to test man... This realm is like spiritual school...

and if you're still here, you haven't passed yet

Akragon


Spilling the blood of the innocent has never forgiven sin... You can not transfer your sin to another creature....

IF you happen to think you know why killing innocent animals for YOUR sins makes any sense perhaps you can answer the question no one else can... here...

How does blood save?

Jesus said "I will have mercy and NOT sacrifice"... meaning spilling the blood of the innocent does nothing...

Never has, never will...

So then how did he "die for our sins," again? the contradiction here is quite astounding.



And by astounding I really mean illogical.

StallionDuck
reply to post by Akragon

 

I can't believe that because Jesus came not to change the law but to fulfill it.. so the OT God has to be genuine. I just think the Hebrews had a different set of laws governing them, unlike others, because the Hebrew were the chosen, the first born liniage, that sorta thing. I don't buy into the whole OT vs NT god thing. I believe they are one and the same. I do think that the NT, power, or the crown was kinda given over to Jesus in a way where God may have stood back to let him take charge but the order of power still exists.

But as i said, I'm always learning. I really have no idea about any of it. That's why it facinates me so much.

You should honestly check again... Yes he came to "fulfil the law" so to speak... but what law?

He came to fulfill the law of love... NOT the laws of moses, which there are actually 613 by the way...

Love IS the Law... and if you think Jesus came to deal with moses's laws, why did he break and change his laws?

paradox

Akragon


Spilling the blood of the innocent has never forgiven sin... You can not transfer your sin to another creature....

IF you happen to think you know why killing innocent animals for YOUR sins makes any sense perhaps you can answer the question no one else can... here...

How does blood save?

Jesus said "I will have mercy and NOT sacrifice"... meaning spilling the blood of the innocent does nothing...

Never has, never will...

So then how did he "die for our sins," again? the contradiction here is quite astounding.



And by astounding I really mean illogical.

He died because his followers would not support him...

John 18
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Akragon

paradox

Akragon


Spilling the blood of the innocent has never forgiven sin... You can not transfer your sin to another creature....

IF you happen to think you know why killing innocent animals for YOUR sins makes any sense perhaps you can answer the question no one else can... here...

How does blood save?

Jesus said "I will have mercy and NOT sacrifice"... meaning spilling the blood of the innocent does nothing...

Never has, never will...

So then how did he "die for our sins," again? the contradiction here is quite astounding.



And by astounding I really mean illogical.

He died because his followers would not support him...

John 18
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

...which circles back to my question.

His followers, 2000 years ago, are guilty and responsible for Jesus's "voluntary" decision to be crucified, not us.

reply to post by Akragon


According to you:

Spilling the blood of the innocent has never forgiven sin... You can not transfer your sin to another creature....

So he did not die for our sins, because from what you say, it is impossible. this is assuming there are even "sins" in the first place, which is a completely different unsupported argument all together, so you're getting the benefit of the doubt here.

paradox
reply to post by Akragon

 

According to you:

Spilling the blood of the innocent has never forgiven sin... You can not transfer your sin to another creature....

So he did not die for our sins, because from what you say, it is impossible. this is assuming there are even "sins" in the first place, which is a completely different unsupported argument all together, so you're getting the benefit of the doubt here.

Correct... again as I've stated previously

Killing an innocent person or animal does not transfer your sins to that person or animal... This is the result of a blood thirsty tyrant of a false God that you can read about in the OT

Remission of sin only happens with sincere repentance... Read it for yourself

reply to post by CleanCare


Well, as much as I believe he died for our sins. I do not think during the time Jesus was Crucified, people would think what they accounted in the Bible would be known 2,000 years in the future.

Just as I am sure many posters on ATS today wouldnt assume in 4014 AD someone would be reading what they had typed up. Let alone the idea that someone would stem faith from it nor use that information for another purpose. Fair enough we arent creating 'bibles' on ATS but still as was back then, literature was created for the eyes of the time.

I believe Jesus died for our sins but since then the 'church' needed to remind us of this and to make sure we kept repenting long after.
Wouldnt have had many still go to church to repent if Jesus saved us from sin was a one time thing. People would stop going if they felt they didnt need to pray anymore, based on the principle of sin that is.

Maltese5Rhino
reply to post by CleanCare

 

I believe Jesus died for our sins but since then the 'church' needed to remind us of this and to make sure we kept repenting long after.
Wouldnt have had many still go to church to repent if Jesus saved us from sin was a one time thing. People would stop going if they felt they didnt need to pray anymore, based on the principle of sin that is.

Wow, I didn't even think of it that way.

The way you put it, it makes Christianity a propaganda. You took this thread to another level

reply to post by Akragon


I like the picture you painted here. Though, I will say, that I really do believe in all of the "myths" in one fashion or another. In my mind, I can see relation and connections to them and for some reason, I seem to understand them in my own weird way. Though putting words to my understanding is the hard part. When I try to, they come out all confusing and backwards.

I was just speaking with a mornon friend of mine, and he answered one of my questions in a way I could understand it.

His thoughts are, that Satan wasn't trying to make man falter in Jobs case, but trying to win God's approval by showing himself as great. As in... "Look what I can do, dad!", but Jesus had the right idea by saying, "No, it's not for you to be great. You should give God the praise, not yourself, for what you discovered".

This not only answered one of my questions but it also makes other questions stand out with new answers and brings more "wisdom" to light among other topics.

always loving the puzzle.

reply to post by CleanCare


Unfortunatly from my point of view....It is propaganda. I was born and raised Chatholic, but as I grew older I started to notice bizzare statements being mentioned to people to try to get them back into the Church. In Malta when I was young, People would say everything and anything that happend to someone was from God.

From my point it was random things (that made no sense)
Such as my Doctor blamed my Asthma down to my mother taking me outside of the household before christening. "As I had breathed in sin before I was blessed by God" Now this man was a doctor but part of the Preisthood clergy.

Old friends and family - Where I was born with a small birthmark on my side, this was because my mother did not go to church during her pregnancy with me. 'The devil had placed its finger upon your sons side'

Any poor child born out of Marriage that was ill would always be blamed down to the Parents not being married beforehand etc.

Random of randoms in my opinion. This sort of go to the church to be saved from sin mentality was often in my childhood.

What I realised when moving outside of Malta was that different countries 'changed' what they interpreted the bible to fit thier purpose.

When I used to go to church in England it was the same feeling just different words.

StallionDuck
reply to post by Akragon

 

I like the picture you painted here. Though, I will say, that I really do believe in all of the "myths" in one fashion or another. In my mind, I can see relation and connections to them and for some reason, I seem to understand them in my own weird way. Though putting words to my understanding is the hard part. When I try to, they come out all confusing and backwards.

I was just speaking with a mornon friend of mine, and he answered one of my questions in a way I could understand it.

His thoughts are, that Satan wasn't trying to make man falter in Jobs case, but trying to win God's approval by showing himself as great. As in... "Look what I can do, dad!", but Jesus had the right idea by saying, "No, it's not for you to be great. You should give God the praise, not yourself, for what you discovered".

This not only answered one of my questions but it also makes other questions stand out with new answers and brings more "wisdom" to light among other topics.

always loving the puzzle.

Believe what you will my friend...

I personally have no belief in "satan"... I think its nothing more then a myth because I can see what "satan" represents within the gospels...

Jesus called Peter satan... does that mean he was actually the devil? Of course not...

Satan is a representation of the materialistic mind... Satan is materialism, nothing more...

Though again, you have your beliefs stick to them... but ask yourself this...

Do your beliefs come from seeking as HE asked you to do?

OR

From listening to a preacher as most Christians do...

reply to post by Maltese5Rhino


But... you're forgetting. He died do our sins could be washed away. That doesn't mean that we will be washed clean then sin no more. It's a constant understanding of one's self and a constant battle to do what's right, to learn, to gain wisdom and to continue to pray for wrong doing that we still do and for others.

From my understanding, Christ was a sacrifice so ultimate that no other sacrifices had to be made. The Jews still sacrificed because they didn't accept Jesus as their Christ. So to them, they're still waiting for him so they can put away the sacrifice that they must do until his coming.

For us, even though we're forgiven, we still have to remember why and still seak it as we will always sin. It doesn't just stop, one time wash, then you're done... It's a constant battle as we're always tempted by our freewill, and always tested to make sure we can graduate, in a manner of speaking.

Akragon


Killing an innocent person or animal does not transfer your sins to that person or animal... This is the result of a blood thirsty tyrant of a false God that you can read about in the OT

So again, Jesus did not die for our sins then, by your own admission.

Also, why do you get to pick and choose which god is the "right" one?

Remission of sin only happens with sincere repentance... Read it for yourself

But wait, if Jesus died for our sins, why do we have to repent?

Absolutely no logic in any of your responses. Just circular reasoning. All as expected, though, you are not the only one who can not give logical answers.

reply to post by CleanCare


Church is not a building you go to every Sunday. It is the act of practicing justness -- at "church the building" is where you learn the practice and principles. The practice and principles are church, not the building where people meet...

I have gave you the answer. It is because Father is just, so we have to be redeemed of our unjustness to be wed to the Son.

All the "harry potter" stuff you do not understand because you have been taught to think of reality as a nuts and bolts physical thing.

A better understanding is that Father is consciousness and the matter you see, is light, or the Son, and The Holy Ghost is the will, energy or force of the "physical"...it is the spirit(s) of God.

e.g. When you make something from the light, a cup for example, you place into the light, your will / spirit, which forms the cup.

Again, it is "good" concept (re)production. You create a concept of your awareness and place your will into the light (The Son).

It isn't magic, it is our reality that you have been mislead to think is just a physical thing -- that it is not spiritual, and that there is no purpose.

StallionDuck
reply to post by Maltese5Rhino

 

But... you're forgetting. He died do our sins could be washed away. That doesn't mean that we will be washed clean then sin no more. It's a constant understanding of one's self and a constant battle to do what's right, to learn, to gain wisdom and to continue to pray for wrong doing that we still do and for others.

From my understanding, Christ was a sacrifice so ultimate that no other sacrifices had to be made. The Jews still sacrificed because they didn't accept Jesus as their Christ. So to them, they're still waiting for him so they can put away the sacrifice that they must do until his coming.

For us, even though we're forgiven, we still have to remember why and still seak it as we will always sin. It doesn't just stop, one time wash, then you're done... It's a constant battle as we're always tempted by our freewill, and always tested to make sure we can graduate, in a manner of speaking.

This constant focus on his death is something I will never understand

His "sacrifice" was that he came to us at all... as if we deserve being "saved" so to speak...

You'll always hear this same thing from Christians.... how his "blood" is what saves us... we need to wash ourselves in his blood...

All I can do is shake my head when I hear this... IF you look back in the OT you'll find no reason what so ever for the death of an innocent "lamb"... its just what this god wanted... In the Judaic faith they believe that the spirit of all life is contained within the blood... but if you take the information you'll find in the gospels into account the spirit is not within the blood, its an entirely separate thing...

Jesus did not teach that blood was required to be saved... he didn't want his followers slitting the throats of lambs and spilling their blood to make God happy, in fact im sure he was likely disgusted by the very idea...

The sacrifice must come from within... giving up things YOU may need for the needs of others...

read this please...

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

reply to post by Akragon


Once again, I can learn from you even though we have different thoughts and reasoning. This is what I call real discoveries upon what we ultimately wish to find out.

Me? I don't do churches. I become judgmental just being in one. Families owning churches while the poor souls give up their hard earned money to support that family, which you can only stand by the side of if you're kin or marry into it... Giving up money to build million dollar churches on the backs of the poor people donating to it... Yeah, I have way too many issues with churches and the riches they obtain. So many mouths can be fed, so many homeless could have shelter... And they call it the house of God. God's earthly house was torn down 2000 years ago. I was even born and raised Catholic, and I do hold some of the belief and standards, but I don't follow any preacher. What I've read in the bible is truth to me, and truth enough for me. I'm not perfect because I have not and am not capable of following everything demanded of me, within it. But I strive to be the best I can be, considering what I do and how I am each and every day, towards others, towards myself... Each day I learn from my mistakes, and every day after I make them again, but I'm fortunate enough to understand where I'm wrong and able to correct myself when I catch myself. Every day I learn from mistakes I've made years and sometimes many years ago, that somehow come to light in my mind... but now makes sense to me when it wouldnt have before.

I don't follow priests or preachers, BUT I learn from them when they speak from the bible, and I learn from people like you and others who make sense to me. My faith and belief is but a puzzle that I find pieces for each and every day, in hopes of building a complete and true soul. So I learn from my surroundings and I apply it to what the bible says. If it fits, then that's one step closer to the truth.