Deciphering the Pagan Stones

a reply to: Logarock

I'd argue that the grove worship is native and the later prohibitions are foreign to the patriarchs. Abraham repeatedly visits a moreh or prophet at the Oak or terebinth of Mamre. And he lives there also. Later we see Israel bury there idols under it a very symbolic passage.

I agree with Britain being pre-roman Christian. The Druids were priests of the same order as Abraham which is the order of Melchizedek. This is over the Levites order which is also a foreign and late addition to the religion of Israel and totally foreign to Britain as the Levites stayed with Judah.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Logarock



I agree with Britain being pre-roman Christian. The Druids were priests of the same order as Abraham which is the order of Melchizedek. This is over the Levites order which is also a foreign and late addition to the religion of Israel and totally foreign to Britain as the Levites stayed with Judah.

Ok but we must account for the priests that operated under the northern kings, the Ephraim/Judah breakup. They apparently were not Levites and operated out of Bethel as center. At some point they morphed into full blown pagan baal worshipers ect, kept the groves ect. Were they a re-emergence of an old order of priests before the Levites?

I just watched this video...



There are few clips of wheat in it, and also a double disc.



Has the symbolism really been forgotten?


Edit:
What does wheat have to do with a death door?

The wheat plant grows, produces kernels, and then slowly dies down as the seeds mature. When the plant is completely dead and dry (gold color), it is time to harvest the grain. - See more at: jimlindlauf.areavoices.com...

a reply to: Wifibrains

Green for spring/summer and gold for autumn/winter (harvest).
We do still seem to know these symbols, almost inherently, thanks Wifi

a reply to: beansidhe

Also... Poetically, the wheat becomes the finished product after it has died.

a reply to: Logarock

Exactly the Northern Tribes never had Levites for their priesthood. And there's a possibility that the Levites were a post exilic addition, or they took power of the temple just prior to the captivity. That, along with the 613 laws of Moses, that were "found" just prior to the purge of Josiah.

I don't know, but I know these things.

Abraham visited the prophet at the Sacred Tree.
Jacob set up a stone pillar:
[Gen 28:18 KJV] 18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put [for] his pillows, and set it up [for] a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

That same word for pillar is used here:

[Exo 34:13 KJV] 13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

[Lev 26:1 KJV] 1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.

The ark of the covenant with its 2 cherubim, the veil with its woven cherubim, and the bronze serpent, all are in direct contradiction to Lev 26:1 above, and multiple other references.

Look at this weirdness that was never spoken against as evil.

[Jdg 18:30-31 NASB] 30 The sons of Dan set up for themselves the graven image; and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land. 31 So they set up for themselves Micah's graven image which he had made, all the time that the house of God was at Shiloh.

If you read Judges 19, 20 and 21 there are some very peculiar things going on there. The taking the 400 virgins, and the girls that come out to worship for the Sons of Benjamin

[Jdg 21:18-21 NASB] 18 "But we cannot give them wives of our daughters." For the sons of Israel had sworn, saying, "Cursed is he who gives a wife to Benjamin." 19 So they said, "Behold, there is a feast of the LORD from year to year in Shiloh, which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south side of Lebonah." 20 And they commanded the sons of Benjamin, saying, "Go and lie in wait in the vineyards, 21 and watch; and behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to take part in the dances, then you shall come out of the vineyards and each of you shall catch his wife from the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

First they take 400 virgins, which 40 or 400 is symbolic of gestation, 40 weeks.

Then they get women from Shiloh which was the original dwelling place of God in Israel, but the women aren't sons of Israel, because they have cursed any who gives daughters to Benjamin.

The directions to where Shiloh is is what caught my eye.

Bethel, the house of God, the pillar of Jacob

Shechem, [Gen 12:6 NASB] 6 Abram passed through the land as far as the site of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. Now the Canaanite was then in the land.
Moreh is the prophet or teacher.

Lebonah,is the moon, the divine feminine, the place Jacob gets his 2 wives

There is more, but I'll leave it for now. At the very least the religion of Israel was heterodox very early on, at the other end of the spectrum the original worship of God by the Israelites and Patriarchs was almost identical to the surrounding nations, and only a late "reformation" brought about the anti-pagan character of 2nd temple judaism.

a reply to: zardust

Did the Kabbalah come out of these people and their religion, or is that something else? I was reading my go-to man for the esoteric, Manly P Hall, and I noticed that in the Kabbalah they start with the trinity. The Celts were fascinated by the number 3, seen in the triskele etc:



Also, would this be the same pillow/pillar that ended up as our stone of destiny?

Just an interesting fact.

It's proving very difficult to find a coherent etymology for 'Hebrides' with lots of conflicting opinions. However the Irish gaelic for wheat is cruithneacht, which is pretty similar to our cruithne, or Picts, the original (mythical?) father of Cinge king of the Picts. In Scots it's cruithneachd.

Wheat people?

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: zardust

Did the Kabbalah come out of these people and their religion, or is that something else? I was reading my go-to man for the esoteric, Manly P Hall, and I noticed that in the Kabbalah they start with the trinity. The Celts were fascinated by the number 3, seen in the triskele etc:

Also, would this be the same pillow/pillar that ended up as our stone of destiny?

Beans, is it just me? or is that simple symbol not one of the most beautiful, flowing, sensual, and immersively hypnotic images imaginable???
...and that's me SOBER!
G

PS - It's NOT just me - That symbol is GORGEOUS!!

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

There is something immensely 'right' about it, I agree.
It's got something to do with the golden ratio - I feel some more googling coming on!

ETA Don't stare at it too long - it's magic! But it is gorgeous.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

“And it is well known that Plato is found perpetually celebrating the barbarians, remembering that both himself and Pythagoras learned the most and the noblest of their dogmas among the barbarians”.
(Clement of Alexandria: The Stromata. Book 1:XV)

Baltic Celts

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

There is something immensely 'right' about it, I agree.
It's got something to do with the golden ratio - I feel some more googling coming on!

ETA Don't stare at it too long - it's magic! But it is gorgeous.

Hekate?

Originally she was Goddess of the wild places, childbirth and the crossroads. These are all "in between spaces" that are associated with the spirit world; for the wilderness is not yet tame, birth is the moment of life where death stands in waiting and the three ways cross roads intersect at a point that is between all the directions. She was called upon by the ancients to provide protection and wisdom at these critical points.

a reply to: beansidhe

I know little about the kaballa. But the trinity is ancient. Far older than Israel. I agree it's a beautiful symbol there too.

The tabernacle had 3 divisions to it. And the inner (middle) court is symbolic of the church or bride.

The feasts of Israel had 3 divisions. Pentecost, the middle feast is the wheat harvest. And also symbolizes the church or bride.

a reply to: zardust

And don't forget the several flat out mutiny that took place when Moses was in charge. These coming during the time that the God of Moses was basically in the camp and after all that had happened. There were very strong opposing power centers among the tribes. Later, after the nation divided, the Ephraimites, the birthright tribe, couldn't wait to set up the golden calf. Although Ephraim's grandmother was the sister of Judah's mother, his mother was the daughter of the high priest of On who Joseph married while in Egypt. Naturally it hardly makes much sense that Joseph married her, but he did and his sons must have taken on some of that philosophy.

Now couple that with the fact that Ephraim received the national birthright, it may have been hard for them to want to take orders from anyone, Moses, Levites, prophets. We find several cases of clear animosity between the Jewish legal royal families and the Ephraimites. Imagine how hard it must have been to bring the birthright tribe under the rule of the Jewish kings? In fact they said as much to the Jews during the national split.

Points being that with such a strong tribal identity, their glory days in and influence of Egypt, the leading tribal role among the twelve also know as the "battle ax of God" it was simply a matter of time before they broke with the Jewish royal control and Jerusalem and set up an independent kingdom representing their own interpretations of Yahweh and their place among the tribes of Israle.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Logarock

I'd argue that the grove worship is native and the later prohibitions are foreign to the patriarchs. Abraham repeatedly visits a moreh or prophet at the Oak or terebinth of Mamre.

Were are you seeing this? Just asking.

a reply to: Logarock

There was never a mention that Abraham was sinful or idolatrous in his worship, or Isaac, or Jacob. Of all the times that pillars and sacred trees are denounced, not once are their names stained. They couldn't because it was so set in, they didn't want to disrupt the ancient stories too much. You see this in the Hindu pantheon where there are 3 Asuras who are Devas, or in the Norse with the Aesir and Vanir. The incorporating of these outside 'old gods' into the new pantheon.

For me the gods are a mythologizing of men, or placing men into the divine archetypes that are the invisible things that the visible are made out of.

And in fact Abraham=Saturn/Chronos, Jacob=Hypsuranius, Esau=Usous

Sanchunthion
(there are many gems in here related to this thread, the cabiri being a major player that should be explored, the sons of Sydyk, [melchi-zedek/king-sydyk] and Aesceplius the eighth)

Hypsuranius inhabited Tyre: and he invented huts constructed of reeds and rushes, and the papyrus. And he fell into enmity with his brother Usous, who was the inventor of clothing for the body which he made of the skins of the wild beasts which he could catch. And when there were violent storms of rain and wind, the trees about Tyre being rubbed against each other, took fire, and all the forest in the neighbourhood was consumed. And Usous having taken a tree, and broken off its boughs, was the first who dared to venture on the sea. And he consecrated two pillars to Fire and Wind, and worshipped them, and poured out upon them the blood of the wild beasts he took in hunting: and when these men were dead, those that remained consecrated to them rods, and worshipped the pillars, and held anniversary feasts in honour of them.

Esau is Hairy (wears skins) and is a hunter. He was red, and edam means red

Red Sea

It has been variously explained by the red corals it contains; by the colour of the Edomite and Arabian Mountains, bordering its coasts; by the glow of the sky reflected in its waters; by the word edom (red), which the Greeks may have rendered literally; by the name of King Erythras, who reigned in the adjacent country.

King Erythras was said to be the first to build ships

baetylus

Baetylus (also Bethel, or Betyl) is a word denoting a sacred stone, which was supposedly endowed with life. According to ancient sources, these objects of worship were meteorites, which were dedicated to the gods or revered as symbols of the gods themselves.[1] An example is also mentioned at Bethel in Genesis 28:11-19.[2]


In the Phoenician mythology related by Sanchuniathon, one of the sons of Uranus was named Baetylus.[3]

There is confusion between the stories and syncretization of older stories, so don't get caught up in the specifics but just pointing out the "pagan" correspondences.

Now a biblical look


Oak Elown
[Gen 12:6 NASB] 6 Abram passed through the land as far as the site of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. Now the Canaanite was then in the land.
[Gen 13:18 NASB] 18 Then Abram moved his tent and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.
[Gen 18:1 NASB] 1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
[Jdg 4:11 NASB] 11 Now Heber the Kenite had separated himself from the Kenites, from the sons of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, and had pitched his tent as far away as the oak in Zaanannim, which is near Kedesh.
[Jdg 9:6, 37 NASB] 6 All the men of Shechem and all Beth-millo assembled together, and they went and made Abimelech king, by the oak of the pillar which was in Shechem. ... 37 Gaal spoke again and said, "Behold, people are coming down from the highest part of the land, and one company comes by the way of the diviners' oak."
[1Sa 10:3 NASB] 3 "Then you will go on further from there, and you will come as far as the oak of Tabor, and there three men going up to God at Bethel will meet you, one carrying three young goats, another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a jug of wine;

Tamarisk Tree or Grove
[Gen 21:33 NASB] 33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.
[1Sa 22:6 NASB] 6 Then Saul heard that David and the men who were with him had been discovered. Now Saul was sitting in Gibeah, under the tamarisk tree on the height with his spear in his hand, and all his servants were standing around him.
[1Sa 31:13 NASB] 13 They took their bones and buried them under the tamarisk tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.

Shechem, Mamre, Kedesh, Tabor (mt. tabor is known as little Hermon or Hermes) all of these sites are very old pagan high places. Which Abraham came to and lived and worshipped at. I discuss this a bit in my sig thread and the cult of the bronze serpent. Shechem is the home of Resheph, who is seen on the Qodesh Stele, Kedesh=Qodesh=Holy as in Holy of Holies.

More from Carthage (and quite Hecate-y, Wifi):







The top two are Tanit -

The details of Tanit’s nature and powers are not really clear. Like Astarte, she had a complex personality (Markoe 2000:130). First and foremost, she was the mother deity of Carthage, protector of the city and provider of fertility. As such she seems to have been a deity of good fortune. Goddess of the heavens, she was often associated with the moon (Benko 2004: 23). Like Asherah, she had maritime connections and was a patron of sailors (Brody 1998: 32-33; Betlyon 1985: 54). There is also some indication that she had a warlike nature, as we would expect of the protector of a city (Ahlström 1986: 311).
On carvings, Tanit’s presence was often signaled by dolphins or other fish as befitted her patronage of sailors.[5] Fertility symbols also abounded: pomegranates, palm trees, bunches of grapes, grain, leaves, and flowers. Indicators of her celestial connections were the crescent moon and sun. A caduceus entwined with what look like snakes might refer to Tanit as “She of the Snake” or, as one scholar has suggested, it might be a stylized version of Asherah’s sacred tree (Carter 1987: 378). Often, dove-like birds appear (Benko 2004: 24; Moscati 1999: 139).

We've seen snakes and double discs combined here at Gotland:



Tanit of Carthage

a reply to: beansidhe

Mind blowing!

The cadusius in the 1st pic are obviously doors to move between worlds via wormhole.

The void (or invisible things) can be seen as water symbolically and to travel through it you will need to metaphorically ride a water beast.... We are limited beings after all.

You could become a sailor of the "deep"...



As above so below?



www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: zardust

It looks like taking a good deal of liberty with the translations even where they clearly may mean "oak" and suggest that these early patriarchs were practicing a form of ancient druidry.

a reply to: Logarock

I'm taking liberty with translations ? Or the translators who tried to hide it by calling it a plain when that's clearly not the case.