There is no God

reply to post by poloblack


I'm sorry but simply because an All seeing God is aware of what one will/has done doesn't invalidate the fact that the one doing it has free will to do it. It just means The All Seeing God knew you'd do it. Whatever it is. His awareness doesnt change the fact that what transpired is what you chose.


Simply because you believe that it does doesn't mean others are wrong for not agreeing with it.

To each their own.

reply to post by poloblack

Not BS, that's your opinion, and I respectfully disagree. If the Creator has foreknowledge of all events that are going to transpire, your free will means nothing.

Incorrect.

If God exists outside of time, then everything that will ever happen has already happened, from his perspective, but it has not happened for us.

So, let's say that you have a decision -- in the next hour, you can present a counter argument to this post, or you can understand the idea behind it and agree. Now, God already knows whether you will agree or disagree, because it's already happened for him, but what he knows is what your decision will be. The decision is still yours, and yours alone, because foreknowledge is not causal.

You have the free will to agree or disagree with me, because God's foreknowledge is of what your exercise of free will brought you to do.

Serdgiam
Dunno, imo, when you remove the omnibenevolent factor... an omnipresent and/or omniscient structure becomes a lot more likely.

Without assuming this is true, the entire foundation of science is thrown off. We need to assume things happen according to a pattern that is present everywhere, and we need to assume that everything behaves as if it "knows" the pattern. Consciously or not, this knowledge of a universal pattern is present in how objects are able to make movement in any way.

Now, when it comes down to calling it something specific, well.... that seems to introduce a massive amount of ammo for a fight.

edit on 22-1-2014 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

I totally agree and I'm reminded of a Rumi poem I would like to share.

"Every war and every conflict
between human beings has happened
because of some disagreement about names.

It is such an unnecessary foolishness,
because just beyond the arguing
there is a long table of companionship
set and waiting for us to sit down.

What is praised is one, so the praise is one too,
many jugs being poured into a huge basin.
All religions, all this singing, one song.

The differences are just illusion and vanity.
Sunlight looks a little different
on this wall than it does on that wall
and a lot different on this other one,
but it is still one light.

We have borrowed these clothes,
these time-and-space personalities,
from a light, and when we praise,
we are pouring them back in." -Rumi

reply to post by AfterInfinity


LOL

I have no need to do any such thing.

Because I believe that God exists.

I have faith of God's existence.

The same as your belief that God doesn't exist.

Porkchop, their is no right or wrong answer. You believe God does not exist using certain parameters. I believe God does exist by using different parameters.

I'll never fault someone for believing differently than I.

Heck, I'll even listen to people telling me I'm wrong.

But that won't change what I believe.

adjensen

If God exists outside of time, then everything that will ever happen has already happened, from his perspective [...]

Already happened, is happening, and will happen.

SLAYER69
reply to post by poloblack

 

I'm sorry but simply because an All seeing God is aware of what one will/has done doesn't invalidate the fact that the one doing it has free will to do it. It just means The All Seeing God knew you'd do it. Whatever it is. His awareness doesnt change the fact that what transpired is what you chose.


Simply because you believe that it does doesn't mean others are wrong for not agreeing with it.

To each their own.

edit on 22-1-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

I agree with your last statement. Fair enough, Slayer. To each his own.

Segenam
reply to post by twsnhr013

 

thats the spirit

Pure gold!

twsnhr013

There are however, unusual beings: spirits, angels, demons, etc.

No there aren't.

Hey this generalisation thing is fun!

reply to post by beezzer


Kk. Well, Ima bow out of this thread before I get myself into trouble. Have fun!

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Science tells us that the current understanding of "God" is 100% retarded

Can you provide a source that confirms your assertion?

I found one that tends to contradict it:

According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power.

See ya,
Milt

adjensen
reply to post by poloblack

 

Not BS, that's your opinion, and I respectfully disagree. If the Creator has foreknowledge of all events that are going to transpire, your free will means nothing.

Incorrect.

If God exists outside of time, then everything that will ever happen has already happened, from his perspective, but it has not happened for us.

So, let's say that you have a decision -- in the next hour, you can present a counter argument to this post, or you can understand the idea behind it and agree. Now, God already knows whether you will agree or disagree, because it's already happened for him, but what he knows is what your decision will be. The decision is still yours, and yours alone, because foreknowledge is not causal.

You have the free will to agree or disagree with me, because God's foreknowledge is of what your exercise of free will brought you to do.

I don't know what you're talking about with the whole ''God exists outside of time'' thing. I'm speaking on free will. Your opinion is just that...YOUR opinion, just as mine is mine. The real fact of the matter is none of us on this rock actually KNOWS anything. I think that we can all agree on that. Belief is a faith based system. I used to beleve in ''Santa'', the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. After I found out what I believed was a lie, let's just say that as an adult, I can't operate from sheer belief. That's just me though. As I stated earlier, I do believe that there is a ''creator of some sort, but I don't pretend to know who that is or how that creator operates.

reply to post by poloblack


Everyone operates on beliefs.

Its an inherent "issue" that comes with the territory of being limited.

We can gather data and patterns, as we do in science, but in the end we still need to interpret what that data means as well as how we can use it.

I dont think science is so separate from these things, and I think it is better viewed as a method rather than an institution.

I don't know what you're talking about with the whole ''God exists outside of time'' thing.

God is timeless being. God does not exist in time.

I used to beleve in ''Santa'', the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. After I found out what I believed was a lie, let's just say that as an adult, I can't operate from sheer belief.

What if it was realized what God actually is? (God realization).

I mean if you had actually found Santa to be true, like on some of these movies you see, then you would not have to 'believe' anymore.

reply to post by poloblack

I don't know what you're talking about with the whole ''God exists outside of time'' thing. I'm speaking on free will.

You predicated your argument on the non-existence of free will on an omniscient being who had foreknowledge of all events:

If the Creator has foreknowledge of all events that are going to transpire, your free will means nothing.

God, by necessity, exists outside of reality, because, logically, the creation cannot hold the creator when it is created. Ergo, God exists outside of time, which is how he knows what your decisions will be before they are made.

The root of your argument against free will is that, because God already knows what you will decide, you are somehow forced to decide it in some direction, but Slayer and I are both showing you that this is not the case, because foreknowledge is not causal. If God somehow didn't know what you would decide on some matter (let's say that he intentionally forgets it to prove the point,) you would not be lost in a vacuum, unable to make a decision, you'd just make the decision and get on with things.

Serdgiam
reply to post by poloblack

 

Everyone operates on beliefs.

Its an inherent "issue" that comes with the territory of being limited.

We can gather data and patterns, as we do in science, but in the end we still need to interpret what that data means as well as how we can use it.

I dont think science is so separate from these things, and I think it is better viewed as a method rather than an institution.

I see what you're getting at but I'll put it like this...sure we operate on beliefs of some sort, but a political belief is totally different from a religious belief, no?

poloblack
I see what you're getting at but I'll put it like this...sure we operate on beliefs of some sort, but a political belief is totally different from a religious belief, no?

Well, one is political and the other religious.. both can lead to zealotry, and both are considered to be impolite to talk about at dinner with guests.

Then, you have those that intermingle the two.

In the end, they are both methods that pertain to daily life, and the quality there-in.

How differently do you see it?

BenReclused
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Science tells us that the current understanding of "God" is 100% retarded

Can you provide a source that confirms your assertion?

I found one that tends to contradict it:

According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power.

See ya,
Milt

Which is actually a surprisingly low amount, given that 95% of the American population that boasts some form or degree of religious affiliation. If you compare the numbers, scientists are less likely to believe in a higher power than the average American civilian. If you go by the numbers in that website, anyway.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Rubbish.

Absolute rubbish.

If anything science is proving that our entire universe is built up of physical matter the total size of a tennis ball and nothing else but differing vibrational frequencies.

Even Einstein's theories broke down at the singularity and he himself admitted that something with a power beyond the laws of this universe had to 'create' them, because the root equations point to the centre of a black hole dividing by zero. (something impossible in the laws of our universe)

But even science is massively based on theory, we've barely left our solar system, barely understand gravity and our knowledge of the universe is infantile and changing rapidly.

To assume to *know* that there is or isn't a creator categorically is naive and you can lie to yourself as much as you like if it keeps you happy, but I'm still going to think your thinking is backward and closed minded.

To quote another of our greatest minds:

“An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed.” - Carl Sagan.

You're just another preacher with a different story to the bible bashers.

reply to post by AfterInfinity




You do realize that the majority of people not just 'American' bible belt bible thumpers on this blue marble we call Earth actually believe in some form of God right?

reply to post by Beavers


It leaves a nasty taste in their mouths