i didnt want to be "that" guy, but here it is, the reason the collapse is happening.

Hoosierdaddy71
I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

But why did this happen?

I believe it is the end result of low cost labor undercutting the middle class, taking money out of pockets, reducing goods and services, resulting in corps being forced to offshore so they didn't have to raise costs as wages dropped.

Doesn't make me right, it is just the way I see it all playing out.

Either way your right about all the manufacturing jobs, this single loss killed our middle class.

reply to post by misschareesee2

Globalization, poverty and serfdom.....

Old World Order.

Nothing new going on here, if people didn't have what amounts to "Societal or Generational Amnesia" they would know there isn't any real change.

They just change the legal definition of things regularly so you don't know what the hell you're talking about, even if you do.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


Good point! It's been done to us all along going back for ages and ages.

MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by CleanCare

 

How many companies / corporations have been raked over the coals for hiring undocumented workers?. One?, Two?, I haven't heard of very many at all really, but there are a lot of them out there who do hire undocumented workers, we all know that.

You think maybe if the, so called "Illegals" (I despise that stupid term BTW) didn't have the potential for gaining employment here they would even come here?.

The problem is not illegal immigrants, the problem is that there are so many businesses that are more than happy to take advantage of their being here.

Capitalism = Exploitation

Your right, but it was them exploiting the" uninvited visitor workers" ( is that better for you than " illegal immigrant") that dropped wages across the entire middle class, forcing corporations to outsource to keep their prices from rising amid falling wages.

oblvion
reply to post by webedoomed

 

Wow....where to begin......you might want to investigate before jumping to so many abstract ideas about my mind state.

I'm calling a dog a dog.

I am no racist, I do not begrudge the Latin Americans that came here for hope of a better life, I would have, and would like to think you would have tried like wise in their place.

Yes, the whole... I have latino friends bit. I get this.

I do begrudge the most powerful military on earth not being able to simply hold a border like every single other nation on earth seems to do just fine.

I can't even begin to take this absolute as a reality. Pure ignorance. You think EVERY other country has IMPENETRABLE borders? Are you truly this stupid?

It is the .gov that allowed this to happen, and yes .gov I do mean the federal government, what else would .gov mean since that is the designation of all their sites on the same medium we are communicating on, thought someone that can find ATS in the entire net would understand this easily.

You're failing to grasp my point. I'm showing how LAZY your mind is. You ALSO put in 17,000 instead of 17,000,000.

As to your other insultingly condescending points, the entire thread doesn't simply play out in the op. The opening post is a starting post in this type of discussion, that will evolve as others add their thoughts.

In all actuality I know a lot about economics, I simply made the op simplistic as I thought possible to fuel further discussion.

THEN WHY AREN"T YOU ADDRESSING ANY OF MY ABOVE POINTS.

YOU CAN"T.

YOU FAIL.

reply to post by onequestion

How so?....

While the slaves fight against each other, the 1% remain safely and stealthily above the frey........

onequestion
Lets add some perspective to this conversation before it gets out of hand....

Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That's compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

You know why this doesnt get attention, because they are not preparing us for integration with ASIA.

Thank you for this contribution, though the Asians are legal immigrants for the most part, I love them, they are very industrious, I worked with a lot of the Tai immigrants at FoxConn making HP computers, very work oriented and all around an asset to the country.

They are quite fun when out on the town also.

oblvion

Hoosierdaddy71
I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

But why did this happen?

I believe it is the end result of low cost labor undercutting the middle class, taking money out of pockets, reducing goods and services, resulting in corps being forced to offshore so they didn't have to raise costs as wages dropped.

Doesn't make me right, it is just the way I see it all playing out.

Either way your right about all the manufacturing jobs, this single loss killed our middle class.

We the people are the reason it happened. Twenty years ago we went to a store to buy a wagon for our five year old. We didn't buy the radio flyer made in Wisconsin USA, we bought the Chinese import wagon for $10 less. We didn't buy the shirt made in the USA, we bought the shirt made in Taiwan. Yes businesses try to make as much money as possible, but we the people find the cheapest products no matter why the product is cheaper.

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by webedoomed

 

The only thing that is obvious is that you called the thread author a lazy ,ignorant racist that must watch Fox News.
Sticks and stones budy.

thanks hoosierdaddy, I am from Indiana also, Plainfield actually.

Common sense must be a Hoosier thing I guess.

MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by misschareesee2

 

Globalization, poverty and serfdom.....

Old World Order.

Nothing new going on here, if people didn't have what amounts to "Societal or Generational Amnesia" they would know there isn't any real change.

They just change the legal definition of things regularly so you don't know what the hell you're talking about, even if you do.

Brilliant!!!

Best post in the thread so far.

reply to post by misschareesee2

Yesssssssssssssssssss...

And we ignorantly pay for the police and military to keep us off of the 1%'s manicured yard and grounds.

No wonder the military likes young un-established people who know no better, who then, after developing a taste for violence, go on to become police officers....

We pay to build our own cage, then we spend our whole life trying to distract ourselves from the fact we are trapped there.

Then we die, and your cage is sold to another sucker.

reply to post by webedoomed


Um no, I am ended the open immediately upon posting it as in saw the lablet had misquoted my original post I copy pasted into place. BTW it got more than that wrong, guess you missed the other issues.

Nice attempt to derail BTW, isn't working, but nice try man.

CleanCare
great read. thanks.

so I see it that your main concern is the high number of illegal immigrants taking jobs away from the middle class.

What do you think could be done about the illegal immigrants though? It would be heartless to kick them out and they are going to just keep coming in unfortunately.

the immigrants are like foreign invaders pillaging and plundering.

The locals can either

a. 'share' what they toiled for so the foreigners can 'have a better life'

or

b. have a DO or DIE stance... either KILL or BE KILLED..

Hoosierdaddy71

oblvion

Hoosierdaddy71
I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

But why did this happen?

I believe it is the end result of low cost labor undercutting the middle class, taking money out of pockets, reducing goods and services, resulting in corps being forced to offshore so they didn't have to raise costs as wages dropped.

Doesn't make me right, it is just the way I see it all playing out.

Either way your right about all the manufacturing jobs, this single loss killed our middle class.

Now we are getting to the meat of the conversation.

This quote right here, this is the reason, we are the reason, we let this happen.

We also allowed our employers to treat us like dirt until they assumed they could, now they know they can.

A few more posts like yours and I think we may an actual conversation about the causes, maybe even the fixes if enough can come around.


We the people are the reason it happened. Twenty years ago we went to a store to buy a wagon for our five year old. We didn't buy the radio flyer made in Wisconsin USA, we bought the Chinese import wagon for $10 less. We didn't buy the shirt made in the USA, we bought the shirt made in Taiwan. Yes businesses try to make as much money as possible, but we the people find the cheapest products no matter why the product is cheaper.

oblvion

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by webedoomed

 

The only thing that is obvious is that you called the thread author a lazy ,ignorant racist that must watch Fox News.
Sticks and stones budy.

thanks hoosierdaddy, I am from Indiana also, Plainfield actually.

Common sense must be a Hoosier thing I guess.

Then why aren't you showing some common sense then? Illegal immigrants do not lower wages. The money grubbers that choose to hire them over citizens are the ones that lower wages. Yes liberals changed the rules for bank loans but it was the banks that created the toxic derivatives that led to the crash. And who had the bright idea to bail out the banks? Little Bush and his cronies.

MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by misschareesee2

 

Yesssssssssssssssssss...

And we ignorantly pay for the police and military to keep us off of the 1%'s manicured yard and grounds.

No wonder the military likes young un-established people who know no better, who then, after developing a taste for violence, go on to become police officers....

We pay to build our own cage, then we spend our whole life trying to distract ourselves from the fact we are trapped there.

Then we die, and your cage is sold to another sucker.

I do believe we re both looking at the same page here.

We are doing this to ourselves, next we will be digging our own graves.

How do we fix it though?

Sorry.... the 17 million migration in the USA was a Result of long term policies Not the Cause of the present economic (slow-motion) collapse



the reason for the continuing crisis was the creation of the Quadrillion dollar un-regulated Derivatives 'game'... the Alice-in-Wonderland, fiat money creation with no limits to betting-on-debt creation along with the expanding greed of the banker-finance network of industries is the 'seed' that has crippled the western world & the London-NY control of all the global finance & trade venues & regulators.


go listen to the golden jackass interview with the 'common sense show'
usawatchdog.com...

58:00 minutes audio is very apocalyptic

buster2010

oblvion

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by webedoomed

 

The only thing that is obvious is that you called the thread author a lazy ,ignorant racist that must watch Fox News.
Sticks and stones budy.

thanks hoosierdaddy, I am from Indiana also, Plainfield actually.

Common sense must be a Hoosier thing I guess.

Then why aren't you showing some common sense then? Illegal immigrants do not lower wages. The money grubbers that choose to hire them over citizens are the ones that lower wages. Yes liberals changed the rules for bank loans but it was the banks that created the toxic derivatives that led to the crash. And who had the bright idea to bail out the banks? Little Bush and his cronies.

Actually bush warned us about the housing collapse several times before it happened.

nicedeb.wordpress.com...

He also had a split house and senate, not in his control. They failed to heed his warnings.

reply to post by oblvion


Wow.... I don't post much, and I will tell you why.

In the past some have raised the question of government shadows or lurkers hanging out here. Let there be no doubt, yes there are. I will tell you exactly how to spot them.

Anyone who uses hate as their bases of a post or reply is indeed a shadow. The PTB want you all to argue, and argue about everything. Can't you see...... Barry and the minions will stick their nose into a race issue, and get the whole country arguing about racism, then about gay marriage, then about immigration, then about religion, then about political identities. On and on and on. Don't you all remember the "Beer Summit" ? That was the first clue as to what Barry was all about.

Everyone on this board that is a real, tax paying citizen should think before they speak and figure out if they are arguing about the actual problem or if they are arguing about the spin. It works the same way each and every time. An actual problem pops up and everyone gets riled up, then the PTB spin the problem into a cultural problem such as race, gay marriage, immigration and then they stand back and let the people fight about it.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall. Educate yourselves people. The poster is correct, and this will not end until they win or we do.

This place use to be a place of ideas, brain storming, conversation. You all have the ability to keep it that way or let the wolves take it from you. No idea should be dismissed and no question should be called stupid.

Moderators - I am sure there are rules about posting racial or other provocative material. I would challenge you to also identify any posts that make unfounded accusations of discrimination as having the intent to derail and redirect the conversation.

Illegal immigration is not racist, it is about either being legal or illegal.

Remus