Debunking Sitchin Debunkers

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engur [WATERS] (45x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. engur; im-gu-ra "(cosmic) underground waters" Akk. apsû; engurru


1. (cosmic) underground waters (45x/100%)

~ LEX/Old Babylonian/Nippur [[engur]] = en-gur = LAGAB×HAL = ZU.AB-um OB Aa 40:1; [[engur]] = = = en-gur-um OB Aa 40:2. ELA/Ur III/Girsu 1(diš) x engur ITT 2, 00694 2; 5(aš) gu2 peš engur-ra MCS 3, 13, BM 102105 11; 3(diš) uruda engur MVN 17, 007 20; engur 2(diš)-še3 RT 18, 72 16 3; x u4-e gešgibil6 gul engur? il2-la LB 0544 o ii 15. ELA/Ur III/Nippur igi engur-engur MVN 03, 319 5. ELA/Ur III/Ur [...]-DU engur-engur UET 3, 0913 10; kin engur-ra-ke4 UET 3, 0915 5; siki gu2 engur UŠ x UET 3, 1529 2. unknown/Ur III/Girsu 5(aš) gu2 peš engur? MVN 17, 069 4.

Akk. apsû "(cosmic) underground water"; engurru "subterranean waters".
-----
psd.museum.upenn.edu...

notice apsu is after the dyslexic flip, from the original abzu.
ZU.AB-um.

oh my. what's the ur III/nippur igi engur-engur reference mean?
igi??? that's EYE or FACE
cosmic water-cosmic water surface? cosmic water-cosmic water eye?
um. wow....


the e.abzu=the e.engurra, house of the cosmic underground water. the house of the abzu. the house of the abyss.

theoretically, that's called bab-el, much later. bab-ilu during late akkad. KA.DINGIR.RA during akkad.
and it equals, gate of god.
so the house of the abzu, the house of the abyss, the house of the cosmic underground water = the gate of god (bab-el) or the gate of the gods (bab-ilu) or the gate to god.

notice it it says gate? how did BAB become "gate"
look at its composition "AB" means water. so where's the gate?
well according to this scholar, ka means gate, in the earlier KA.DINGIR.RA
the gate of "dingir" (god)

look:
ka.dingir.ra

does that mean BA from babel was originally ka. if so then we wouldn't have AB for water, as the A would be used by the B. it must be a shortened form, perhaps another example of latinization of ancient words. so it might say something like "BA-AB-EL" or "BA-AB-ILU"

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

that's later. earlier, the people of the water god, would necessarily be followers of ea, who is enki. i can't believe someone starred you for that bit of misdirection.

Abgal was what they were in Sumer.
Akkadian was Apkallu.

How old is Adapa? First Abgal.

It's not about being a water god. Abgals (Apkallus) werenrt water gods - weren't gods at all.
It's a guy in a fish coat.

That's prettty old - before Sargon.

The term abgal is used in the late 2nd millenium, but the iconography is older than that, indicating only that we haven't found older attestations as far as myths.

They're attested to in Administrative texts, however:

This may be true for the 1st millennium mythical-magical figure, but for the real-life early Sumerian precursor of the “fish-man” some suggestive information can indeed be found in a group of Pre-Sargonic Lagaš administrative texts.

link

Harte

a reply to: Harte

i didn't say water godS, i said water god. the people of the water god.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

i didn't say water godS, i said water god. the people of the water god.

Whatever, these weren't water gods anyway.
They weren't exactly people either.
They were Enki's attendants, perhaps that was "later." Earlier, they were sent by An to civilize us.

Abgal. It's an ancient tradition, not something that came "later."

Harte

a reply to: Harte

so then is this wrong:

They are first referred to in the Erra Epic[4] by the character of Marduk who asks "Where are the Seven Sages of the Apsu, the pure puradu fish, who just as their lord Ea,

if it's marduk timeframe, it's not sumerian.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

so then is this wrong:

They are first referred to in the Erra Epic[4] by the character of Marduk who asks "Where are the Seven Sages of the Apsu, the pure puradu fish, who just as their lord Ea,

if it's marduk timeframe, it's not sumerian.

Marduk was in the pantheon before what you call the "Marduk timeline." The text you reference is the first known myth attesting to them. The term is only used once in that myth, BTW.
The earliest myths, "stories" you know, where what they are is either explained or it's assumed the reader knows, come from from the late 2nd millennium, such as your example.

I linked to attestations to Abgal in the 3rd millenium.
The pdf link shows their attestations earlier, as does some earlier Sumerian art. Earlier mythic works invilving the Abgal have yet to be found. But we know they were there.

Not that any of that matters. The poster's pics - if you go back and look - are all Babylonian or later anyway.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

i used the link you posted. that quote is from the link itself. it says the first time it appears is in the time of marduk in the erra epic. when i googled the erra epic this is what i got:
en.wikipedia.org...
timeline, 800 BC, with copies suggesting the stories may have come from babylon.
which is still not sumerian.

see the itchy point about marduk is 1) his usurpation of enki, enlil and anu, 2) his claim to have done things formally associated with enki, enlil and anu.

this makes references to events that transpired prior to his reign, suspect. it doesn't mean they aren't true, it just means more attention needs to be placed on the timeline and if earlier references are available

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

i used the link you posted. that quote is from the link itself. it says the first time it appears is in the time of marduk in the erra epic. when i googled the erra epic this is what i got:
en.wikipedia.org...
timeline, 800 BC, with copies suggesting the stories may have come from babylon.
which is still not sumerian.

I thought you meant the pdf.

Yes, the wiki entry is wrong, technically. The term was used earlier, but the myth of who the abgal were hasn't been found earlier.
I gave you earlier attestations. I've told you of earlier depiction in Sumer's Art.

The term was used once in the myth Enki and the World Order.
Two other places listed at ETCSL: link
All three earlier than 800 BC.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

The abgal priests is what it says in enki and the world order.
so who do they worship? they are the people of enki / ea, the water god.
like i said.
Enki and the World Order

gallu=great man. it doesn't become demon / devil until babylon, when everything was turned on its head by the priests of marduk.
so ab-gallu means great water man. and ab-gallu priests means great water priests - who were men/humans.

there is a possibility this is also an early reference to the nephilim - part human/part angelic being/extra-terrestrial/inter-dimensional, since "great man" and "mighty man" are synonyms of each other. however, not all nephilim were bad. as king david had mighty men in his army that helped him win the war against the philistines. one in particular killed 800 men on his own in one encounter. methinks part of the story is missing, as regards the nephilim. whether on purpose or not, is the big question.

p.s. the brazen sea in solomon's temple is the apsu/abzu, symbollized later in the timeline and referencing the (water) gate of god (interestingly enough, perched on the back of twelve oxen/bulls, a clear indicator of its astronomical significance (ecliptic, the gate in taurus (see the red disk encased in bull's horns in egyptian iconography, such as the crown on hathor's head). see also the feet of the calf on the cherubim in ezekiel 1. same thing, with more detail. 4 constellations in taurus.
en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

The abgal priests is what it says in enki and the world order.
so who do they worship? they are the people of enki / ea, the water god.
like i said.
Enki and the World Order

They are Enki's attendants, like I said.

Everyone worshiped Enki. Did they all wear giant carps on their backs?

Harte

originally posted by: undo
gallu=great man. it doesn't become demon / devil until babylon, when everything was turned on its head by the priests of marduk.
so ab-gallu means great water man. and ab-gallu priests means great water priests - who were men/humans.

Adapa was human. He was considered the first Abgal.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

they were priests of enki. ya know like the pope wears a fish miter ? that's where they got that from.
attendants, perhaps so.

a reply to: Harte

oh why isn't he on the list in the link you gave?

Like you said about something else, he came later.

Harte

i'd like to make a correction to the fish miter thing. i don't think enki-ea was dagon. dagon appears to be a later manifestation, some time after the rise of marduk, from a decidedly negative angle. i think it was samuel noah kramer who mentioned that the flood event was blamed on enki, as the water god, when in fact it had been enlil who had decreed it. someone apparently saw the opportunity to create a religion wherein people could be horribly abused in the name of enki, who was repackaged as some evil, blood thirsty demon from the depths of the sea.