Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

Quoting a site like "www.provethebible.com" as any sort of objective authority on the veracity of the BIble would be like taking the word of "www.vampiresarereal.com" on the biology of the undead or citing information on peaceful conflict resolution from "www.howtoblowstuffup.com."

Yes, those are frivolous (if not spurious) counter-examples of a frivolous (if not spurious) claim.

But, since it's all just "a matter of faith" these issues about objective facts, about what is real and based on evidence, i.e. reality ... don't really matter, do they?

Just for kicks however, let's do a bit of reasonable analysis on a couple of items.

From the Wallace article listed:

I mentioned that seven New Testament papyri had recently been discovered—six of them probably from the second century and one of them probably from the first. These fragments will be published in about a year.

Notice the repeated use of the weasel-word "probably." What does probably mean again? Oh yeah, "maybe," "it could be," "it's possible that," and also "I have no real evidence but I believe that." Yes, belief, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Or is it the crutch?

These fragments now increase our holdings as follows: we have as many as eighteen New Testament manuscripts from the second century and one from the first.

"One from the first." Is that the Ryland FRAGMENT of the Gospel of John that was "probably" penned in 100 CE? Well, that is technically the last year of the 1st Century, so ... bully for us! We have something that was only written 100 years after the fact. I'm sure it's completely factually sound, aren't you? And EIGHTEEN manuscripts from the 2nd Century Wait ... manuscripts ... now are those complete texts, Matthew through the Revelation of the modern New Testament? What, these manuscripts are only single pages or partial pages in most cases?

Wait, when was the NT organized as we have it today again, i.e. canonized? Well, for the Eastern Orthodox Church it was at the Second Council of Trullo in 692 CE (Source),and for the Roman Catholics at the Council of Trent on April 4, 1546. (Source)

So, how did they know in the 2nd century what books would be chosen 500 and 1300 years later?

They didn't. That's the point.

More weaseling nonsense.

It doesn't matter what kind of website a solid scholarly pile of datapoints is posted on.

The source and quality of the research is the key issue.

Interestingly, you ignore that entirely.

As you ignored those assertions that were plain point of fact.

Go ahead comfort your biases with layers of foam rubber and oligarchy orchestrated deception.

Folks have been rationalizing rebellion against God for eons.

It never has worked out well for them.

However, given the . . . character of . . . human . . . nature . . . it will continue to go on for some time yet.

reply to post by Gryphon66


Perhaps you are unaware . . . that even in physics . . . the purportedly paragon of emphatic certainty-about-facts-and-measurements sciences.

scholars are hesitant--given quantum physics--to say a lot of things very emphatically.

Can you declare that light is emphatically a wave . . . vs a particle?

That's the nature of purportedly SCIENTIFIC scholarship.

Another fact conveniently ignored in your post.

BO XIAN
More weaseling nonsense.

It doesn't matter what kind of website a solid scholarly pile of datapoints is posted on.

The source and quality of the research is the key issue.

Interestingly, you ignore that entirely.

As you ignored those assertions that were plain point of fact.

Go ahead comfort your biases with layers of foam rubber and oligarchy orchestrated deception.

Folks have been rationalizing rebellion against God for eons.

It never has worked out well for them.

However, given the . . . character of . . . human . . . nature . . . it will continue to go on for some time yet.

I'm glad you discovered the term "weaseling" in my post ... it's quite useful isn't it?

Of course the nature of the site matters! For exactly the reasons I pointed out somewhat humorously. These sites pretend to be objective, in terms of OBJECTIVE reality, taking the word of true believers who are going to willfully and utterly absolve themselves in confirmation bias ... why would any reasonable person take that as evidence?

They wouldn't. You, BO, like to project your own tactics onto others, don't you? Perhaps you can further clarify what "foam rubber" possibly has to do with "oligarchy orchestrated deception" ... or maybe explain what you mean by that gobbledy-gook ... and what either of them have to do with the veracity or ludicrosity of the Bible?

AH, now the fear-mongering starts! The threats that God Himself is going to strike down anyone who disagrees with your prattle-posts? Wait is it "strike-down" or "smite" in this case?

No evidence, no facts, no rational claims, no reasonable debate, only sputtering, snarling animus. And so soon!

Go ahead and explain how pointing out your flaws is victimizing your Christianity. How you're being unfairly baited, etc. It's always someone else at fault, isn't it?

That's really sad, come to think of it.

BO XIAN
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

Perhaps you are unaware . . . that even in physics . . . the purportedly paragon of emphatic certainty-about-facts-and-measurements sciences.

scholars are hesitant--given quantum physics--to say a lot of things very emphatically.

Can you declare that light is emphatically a wave . . . vs a particle?

That's the nature of purportedly SCIENTIFIC scholarship.

Another fact conveniently ignored in your post.

Ignored? No ... no one has been talking about science, and certainly not quantum mechanics. We're talking about the Bible, BO, remember? That unimpeachable, unquestionable source of all that is True ... remember?

I notice that you repeatedly attempt to misinterpret what words actually mean, BO. And now, you want to talk science?

That requires precision and exactitude, BO. You haven't exactly exhibited those qualities in your posts thus far, honestly. As to the nature of light, the results depend upon the experiment. On, wait for it, human confirmation bias. And you may want to review what "quantum physics" means again ... unless you're measuring your Bible at the Planck length ... quantum doesn't really apply.

Really, BO, in all honesty, I think you may not be up to a reasonable discussion given what you said earlier.

I'll catch up with you later. Get some rest, and forget all this for a while.

OH RLY?

Now who's being condescending.

Sheesh.

. . . evidently if a solid scientifically well researched fact is posted on a screwy website . . . you'd advise folks to ignore the facts, the truth merely because of some shallow guilt by association.

And you want readers to give your rationale and perspective credence and weight?

Impressive.

NOT.

As to playing nice . . . as I figured . . . that exhortation is all for the side you're not on. LOL.

Whereas, it appears from where I sit, y'all have little familiarity with sweetness or light.

Matthew 5:
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

= This is to warn you that when you hold things that offend you, for example mexicans, that you burn yourself in your mind and also come away from earth. making your heart heavy going into the low vibration hell. (We are on hell, the imagination is heaven, believing the two touch is earth, Thy shall kingdom come, they shall be done on earth as is in heaven)

Matthew Chapter 5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Matthew Chapter 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but that which commeth out of the mouth, this defileth a man.Text

These are lessons on Karma control/Attraction/Will and intents cause and effect/Mind over matter.

Below it tells you how to be and think in order for you to perceive your self subconsciously where you want to mostly. But right now your subconscious dosent understand you or what you want.

Matthew 5:39 - 45
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Heaven is where our father is, but our mind is the lord, where as god is.
In the bible at genesis it says god said, and on the 6th day when he creates adam i noticed it changes to the lord said, one is whole and one is our immaterial mind.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You must believe. Have faith in what you know, have faith in yourself with all the above to even come close to Christ Conscious.

I don't believe Jesus existed but still has still to come, I do believe however that a very smart, genius man understood much and took lots of intoxicants, i think he had developed a very open third eye/minds eye and has been easily able, with his will to shift into these different consciousnesses reasoning among them and as he does so he is drawning the subconscious into his conscious understanding and interacting with it more.

Hence mind over matter. But the bible was copped off the hermetic religions philosophy, understandings of the universe and the inner. I recon he just got the idea from that and expanded.

Because the idea was so unmaterial, unacceptable to the mass of that era, he hid them in parables and doctrines, such a complex puzzle of wisdom. I do intend to write a whole thread about it to show each religion, once removed the veil of perception, all say the same and that Jesus is Muhammad in the quran, exactly the same person, son of god blatant.

These symbols are all different but they symbolize one, religions have been made separate in order to form illusion we are separate.

So you don't believe in a real person being 'Jesus' as described in the Bible. Fair enough. You are implementing an extremely high standard of evidence to prove a person existed...but if that's what you need as proof so be it! Your demanding a first hand written account by someone to prove existence. Of course that person could only write about what they actually saw, otherwise it's not really 'first person' of course.

Your a logical person...I can tell. So you fairly apply that standard of proof to every historical person or story you have heard about right? Abraham Lincoln was a real person? Well it's not too hard to find some written account of him by a person that 'saw' him. However those historians weren't 'first hand' during 99% of what they write about Lincoln. They just saw him waving from a train or some such sort. So...logically...you dismiss 99% of what is currently written about Lincoln.

Of course you don't believe almost everything you hear on the daily news...because most of that isn't 'first hand' accounts but is simply a professional reading a script in front of a camera.

I could go on and on listing things but I'm sure you get my point. If your standard of evidence is set to first hand knowledge then your throwing out the vast majority of information you get in this world. You can live this way, but you won't believe in very much at all.

I'd suggest you apply strengths to different sources of information in supplying the truth. Thus a large amount of unreliable evidence can still convince you that something...or someone...is real.

BO, really, I didn't say Christian apologetics sites were "screwy" ... that must be your word for them.

I claimed these sites are, wait for it, biased. The very idea of apologetics is to offer a biased explanation that something in dispute is actually true regardless of reasonable objections. Defending an irrational position at any cost, as it were. Look it up, the word comes from the Greek legal system ... to defend at any cost. In other words, fabrication is okay if needed, as we saw earlier in this same discussion.

That's the real reason your analogy that a scientific truth on a such a questionable website is completely flawed, because no one, not even you disputes scientific truth. That's the thing about science as compared with religion (as least poorly argued here) its claims really are self-evident when you understand the logical arrangement of measurable facts that comprise a scientific position. Science is everything that some apparently want religion to be ... rational, provable, "true," as you yourself say.

And you may want to read back. I expressed condolences to you, I never asked you to play nice. I brought up that your Lord and Savior Jesus of Nazareth called Christ suggests that you return good for evil and turn the other cheek, but from what I've seen, y'all don't really listen to Him, anyway.

For goodness sake, since you want to persist, stop bleating about someone treating you badly -- you ADMIRE plain speech, remember? Or was that just some sort of weird attempt at cornpone charm?

Either way, I have only pointed out the inconsistencies of your arguments to you. If that kitchen is too hot for you, try the porch.

Comparing Jesus to Abraham Lincoln is actually a great way to highlight what a real person leaves behind.

There are images of Lincoln created in his purported lifetime.

There are documents with Lincoln's signature on them, and written in his own hand.

There are numerous first-hand accounts of him CONTEMPORANEOUS with his reported lifetime. Not to belabor the point or condescend, but that means at the same time as he lived, there are thousands of independent reports that attest to his existence.

Finally, there are exhaustive records of his burial ... location, method, and so forth, documented by hundreds of people, and it is possible to exhume Lincoln's body and test it in various ways, and IF the body were somehow to be missing from it's excruciatingly well-documented place of rest, I don't think any reasonable person would offer the explanation that he, quote-unquote, rose from the dead.

Quite a few important differences it seems, between Jesus and Honest Abe; great analogy!

I dont know if any of that was pointed towards me other than do i believe christ was real, i dont. Thing is with all the accounts, burial places, every other factual piece depends on the reliability of the source and correlation with other events that happened.

Plus i could write 100 books in 10 different hand writings and send them all about the world and you could imagine the confusion if done correctly.

Look at it this way any body who doesn't believe me, people searched their entire life, riddling their brain dry trying to find leads and clues as to where the tree of life is, or the tree of knowledge and/or the burial place of Jesus when it is all metaphorical.

I feel for every man that has search timelessly and pointlessly when the tree of knowledge is within us, the knowledge we gain each day is from the tree of knowledge, when we ate from the tree of knowledge, we stopped eating from the tree of life, for knowledge teaches you, you are naked, so you feel shame, where as if we ate from the tree of life, we would have less perceptions of limit.

Christ is just believing that hell and heaven are touching, hence gods son.
He is a mindset.
If he lived or didn't it does not matter any more other than for the ego to feed.

BO XIAN


Putting your words and notions into my fingers is not helpful . . . nor accurate.

I asked you a question, I did not put my notions into your fingers.

I don't begrudge folks their journey. I'd prefer to make their troubles less serious and less frequent from what I've learned.

I've learned that there are a few universal principles that are true for everyone and true in all of reality.

Wonderful. So have I. That comes with life experience and introspection, for those with the capacity to reflect philosophically. Does what you've learned include using derision and insults and sarcasm as particularly effective 'tools' for 'teaching'?

Those who reject Almighty God and His Word have always, in my observations and experience, suffered far more, over the long haul, than others. Some consequences are delayed. And sometimes the negatives are hidden under a lot of bling and money but that truism is as true or more true than the sun will 'rise' tomorrow.

A person who is investigating for themselves from available sources, in their own way, is not necessarily 'rejecting' "Almighty God and His Word". How did this conversation lead to "bling and money"??

You sound like you

1. think that I have no capacity to learn that a light switch in one direction results in light and in the opposite direction results in darkness.

I neither said nor implied that. My objection is that you are assuming others are looking for YOUR answers, when they are looking for their own.

2. think that I have no right nor capacity to share that learning with anyone else.

Certainly you have a 'right' to share your learning; as for 'capacity'......well, the style of delivery reflects the teacher's attitude, not that of the 'learner'.

Browbeating and sneering at people isn't a preferred method of 'teaching', and is NEVER 'welcomed'.
Do you feel that your posts in this thread are productively "sharing" your learning? Are you winning lots of "lost souls" for Jesus Christ? Would he approve of your evangelization methods?
That is one of the big problems that religions have - no one likes to be ridiculed, mocked, shamed, and told they are losers and idiots worthy of hell. No healthy person, that is. Religion makes a great tool for those who thrive on self-loathing; the question must be: where does the self-loathing come from? Religion?

3. think that I have no capacity to learn that when one plants cacti, one can't harvest peaches from the plants.

Are you suggesting that YOU ALONE are CAPABLE of figuring that out?

4. think that I have no capacity to learn that when one plays with evil, ugly, dangerous 'fires,' one is highly likely to be seriously burned.

YOU ARE ASSUMING that people who have doubts about the Bible and Religious Dogma are "playing with evil, ugly, dangerous 'fires'." That's the second time now that you have made reference to some kind of sinister, malevolent intentions. Has anyone on this thread suggested they want to light (let alone "play with") evil, ugly, dangerous 'fires'? No.

Perhaps YOU at some point dabbled in a prickly cactus fire and got burned and pricked, but again, no one here has said anything about "turning to the Dark Side" if they discover Jesus's story is more legend than journalistic documentation.

BTW, I thought you were one who wanted me to play nicer.

I guess it's not a 2 way street.

Look, I don't care if you piss off every single member of ATS! I suggested that those who wish to influence people ought to think carefully about the message they are sending. As an example of a "Christian", you seem definitely prickly - and I'd hazard a guess that you are not likely to suddenly start producing peaches.

I asked you if you were aware of the tone coming across from your posts. You said that you were aware of it. If you feel it is productive, then that's your prerogative; knock yourself out.
*shrug
Somehow I doubt that "Jesus of Nazareth" used that tone with the folks sitting in his audience. But maybe it's just me.

Gryphon66
There are images of Lincoln created in his purported lifetime.

Oddly all the camera's in Jesus' time were broken...you win that evidence argument I guess.

Gryphon66
There are documents with Lincoln's signature on them, and written in his own hand.

Damn it all, the paper they used in Jesus' time doesn't last 2,000+ years. Even the existence of Pontus Pilate, the boss of the area at the time, is under dispute let alone a common guy from a little village like Jesus. You win again!

Gryphon66
there are thousands of independent reports that attest to his existence.

Such powerful evidence it's overwhelming! Sadly very few people in Jesus' time even wrote language. Despite that and the extreme value of paper there are hundreds of Gospels on Jesus. Thousands beats hundreds however....You win again!

You got me man! Surprisingly the evidence of a man living 200 years ago is a bit stronger than a man living over 2000 years ago. Glad you could point out the blatantly obvious for everyone.

Fact: god/jesus has a beautiful plan for your life. Don't let the Devil make it ugly.

Fact: More than 10% of all children under the age of five years will die each year, in Afghanistan, Angola, Benin Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Ivory Coast, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Niger, Nigeria, Sierra-Leone, Somalia, Sudan,Togo, Uganda, Zambia.

Thank god/jesus for his beautiful plan.

Superstition Is, Always Has Been, And Forever Will Be, The Foe Of Progress, The Enemy Of Education And The Assassin Of Freedom.

Why don't all these so called priests, pastors, holy rollers... (Instead of dedicating all the wasted time praying to a fictitious, false, human, idol) Focus all the energy they piss away daydreaming, to a worthy cause. Why don't the church, really help. unlike their fake wonder worker. Offer trumped up BS Charity's. Send me your money. They'll take your mama's dentures, they have gold in em'

I will DC, my participation in this Holier than thou discussion, For it goes nowhere. Religion is a mental disorder. No matter the facts, or in their case, the lack there of.. Will change the abstract thinking of the religious gang.

The more you know the less you believe! Every one of our specific sciences has superseded and passed the wisdom of scripture.

reply to post by noeltrotsky


It's blatantly obvious and yet ... you have to comment on it as well? Must be a slow news day.

Images of people, along with being photographs in more modern times, can also preserved as sculptures, coins, mosaics, carved reliefs, paintings, tapestries, etc. all of which existed in historic times, some of which still exist today.

No paper lasts 2000 years? Nope, not to mention that paper didn't exist 2000 years ago as we know it today, or as it existed in the 1850s-60s with Mr. Lincoln. But, does it seem to you that a lot of the "evidence" presented in this discussion greatly depends on extant scraps and pieces of papyrus, and later parchment that are supposed to have lasted ... about that long, give or take a century here or there? Seems that way to me.

Hundreds of "gospels on Jesus" exist, eh? Wait, didn't you just say paper [sic] papyri doesn't last? And did you notice the word "contemporaneous"?

Did you have a claim to make here?

BO XIAN

Some things are more reasonably debatable, to me than others.

Everyone has his own standards, But things that affect societies are a priority to me.

BO XIAN
With more than 3,000 hours of intense group process experience . . . I enjoy a vigorous, even intense, heated exchange as long as there's some discernible mutual respect for personhood on both sides.

I totally agree. and since respect must come both ways, and it is not only the right of the religious, I think religious people should also respect the opinions of other peoples beliefs
for ex. the belief that bible is just a fairytale.

BO XIAN
In my region of the SW USA . . . farmers and cowboys tended to say things bluntly . . . often with flavor and bite . . . not necessarily personal . . . just being real with an aversion to pussy-footing around reality.

I totally respect that, so you wouldn't mind if others use the some way of expressing themselves about their opinion on religion,

BO XIAN

I have some obligation to be hearable. But the hearer also has some obligation to earnestly endeavoring to hear.

And, I've found from hard experience that even when I'm my most gracious and gentle, the other side as often as not will still be disinclined to hear. I'm not talking about agreement . . . I'm talking about hearing and understanding what was said/written.

Besides what you might think is your obligation, the other side is not at all bound to listen or understand you.
You may believe you hold the truth and proof on your words, but that requires an acceptance of belief from the others, To an atheist that's wishful thinking.

Beside that I totally understand your POV and what you are saying, I used to be a Christian, I used to argue and ''fight'' for the ''truth'' of Jesus and I used to defend the bible.
But getting old I kept finding things that didn't make sense. When I met logic and critical thinking I started question the bible and christian ideology, and after a decade of research and truth seeking, I not only find the bible a fabricated fairytale, but I disagree with everything christianity stands for.

A message of light you might say
A few words of light warped in ignorance, arrogance, murders, and misery backed up by an imaginary being in the sky who the primitive Jews thought was the answer to their existence.

In ancient Greek philosophy and cosmology, we have much much much better messages on how to live your life and teachings of goodness, ethics and standards, that a society must rely on - for the well being and healthy future of humanity.

I am an atheist physicist and I don't believe in miracles, Holy spirits, sins, devils, demons and messiahs cause my God is nature and my bible is science but I'm keeping an open mind on everything I can change my mind about something, all I need is physical proof.
You see my ideology is not a dogma and I also believe in the existence of good and evil but only in the minds of humans.
and the most evil this world has ever seen was from the religious minds.

I know we can never find agreement on the subject since I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean I can't respect you as a person.

In your race to prove modern evidence is more valuable than older evidence you clearly missed the point of my original post. That happens when your so smart and so right all the time.

texastig

C21H30O2I
The New Testament present two radically different accounts of the nativity.

No it doesn't. You have one story and then you have the other that fills in the details.
I bet you would howl if the Gospels were the same.

OMG Pa'leez.
haha I really don't care that much about those fables. It bothers me tho, to see some, in society being zombiefied from the brain eating disease called religion.

However, I rejoice in the fact, that they are a dieing breed!

reply to post by C21H30O2I

OMG Pa'leez.
haha I really don't care that much about those fables.

I'm certain you can't prove they're only fables.
So calling them such amounts to straight out lying.
Unless you can provide evidence. People thought
the city Ur was a Biblical fairytale, until the 1800's.

It bothers me tho, to see some, in society being zombiefied from the brain eating disease called religion.

Obviously something is bothering you, but I don't think you
were being honest with yourself at all describing what it is.

However, I rejoice in the fact, that they are a dieing breed!

Oh I don't know about that.

reply to post by Scope and a Beam


Because the fiction of jesus and god are as real as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all the other imaginary characters. Christianity is a cheap suit worn by racists, bigots and the narrow-minded hypocrite to justify the slaughter of those who don't believe in their comic book teachings, pedophilia, feelings of inferiority, hatred of others not like them and ignorance. It's a money making scam devised to separate the foolish from their money and provide the local priest/preacher with a free income, housing, cars and parishioners to freely molest.

There is no jesus, there is no god, there is no heaven or hell. From nothingness we come and to nothingness we shall return. We are a fluke and not a part of some grand scheme- not special, merely a gigantic accident.