Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

Buttonlip
reply to post by texastig

 

The only evidence Jesus ever existed lies within a book full of talking snakes and talking bushes. You proved NOTHING. Nice cherry picking too. Why no quotes from leviticus? Have you stoned your children yet for being disobedient or are you a blasphemer?

I bet he doesn't even carry his obligatory Holy Paddle:

Deuteronomy 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee: 14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

texastig

Gryphon66
You say that Professor Sanders says this: "Bibliographical (i.e., the textual tradition from the original document to the copies and manuscripts of that document we possess today)"

I never said that.
That's from probe.org
Did you forget to check that website?

So ... it's okay according to your Christian values to quote someone else's dishonesty as if it were true???

ADDED IN EDIT:

You didn't cite www.probe.com as your source for your comment about Professor Sanders. You know that, I know that. I rarely use the word pathetic, but that is a pathetic level of dishonesty on your part.

King-Herod was looking for someone as alerted by Mystics who "Sensed" the arrival... or where their interpretations incorrect in what energy they felt coming?

But his most brutal act of genocide - the so-called Murder of the Innocents, recorded in St Matthew's Gospel - was to order the killing of every single male child under two in his kingdom in an effort to destroy the infant Jesus, lest he grow into another threat to Herod's rule.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

The Massacre of the Innocents is the biblical narrative of infanticide by Herod the Great, the Roman-appointed King of the Jews. According to the Gospel of Matthew,[1] Herod ordered the execution of all young male children in the vicinity of Bethlehem, so as to avoid the loss of his throne to a newborn King of the Jews whose birth had been announced to him by the Magi.

en.wikipedia.org...

NAMASTE*******

DeadSeraph
reply to post by C21H30O2I

 

Do you actually believe this nonsense? So people have rights, but don't have the right to have ideas? Clearly not a lot of them floating around up there thats for sure...

Humans were given 'free will' (self determinism) to allow themselves to access any situtation that allows ones soul to progress; in positive growth (hopefully because there is no future in a negative ambition); as an individualized spirit will learn/obtain enlightenment about the larger picture that you (as an individuated consciousness) is just an infantesmal part of a greater whole; stress on the abbrieviate "INFANT". With this; free will applies to all, so they dont have to agree with you (this is a specialized schooling made to order for each and every one of us; just not supposed to harm one another over 'the devil in the details aspect' of personal spiritual growth. I have always been curious about this; Lucifer gave free will to the human without negotiation with his compadres and was punished for it why (seems like rational behavior/benevolent and trusting); and some confuse him with Satan. Using this only as a fairytail story (biblical) no such thing actually happened. This Physical Matter Reality came with free will/self determinism INTACT as part of its rules of incarnation.

Utnapisjtim

Buttonlip
reply to post by texastig

 

The only evidence Jesus ever existed lies within a book full of talking snakes and talking bushes. You proved NOTHING. Nice cherry picking too. Why no quotes from leviticus? Have you stoned your children yet for being disobedient or are you a blasphemer?

I bet he doesn't even carry his obligatory Holy Paddle:

Deuteronomy 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee: 14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

So not only did you not actually address my question, you resorted to bible cherry picking. Thanks for responding with nothing.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


So what would you call the great flood? All those babies that were drowned were sinners? All the pregnant women were sinners?

Buttonlip
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

 

So what would you call the great flood? All those babies that were drowned were sinners? All the pregnant women were sinners?

NO this is not what 1 said?

I you wish 1 to share of the deluge: Utnapishtim and the Great Flood

It is a historical fact that a great deluge once destroyed every human being on earth except a single family. The book of Genesis contains the only reliable account of this earth-shaking event.

However, this traumatic experience left its mark on the oral traditions of a wide variety of people. Some late accounts of the flood bear little resemblance to what actually happened. However, an early account of the ancient Sumerians and Akkadians is much closer to the truth.

The account of the deluge forms a portion of a larger work known as the "Gilgamesh Epic." Enkidu, a friend of Gilgamesh, had died. This reminded Gilgamesh of the fact that he too would die some day. He decided to pay a visit to an ancestor named Utnapishtim, who had been admitted to the ranks of the immortal gods. He was hoping that Utnapishtim might reveal to him the secret of immortality.

When Gilgamesh asked Utnapishtim how he managed to enter the assembly of the gods with immortal life, Utnapishtim answered by telling Gilgamesh about his experiences in a great deluge that the gods once sent to destroy mankind.

Utnapishtim used to be king of Shuruppak, a city situated on the banks of the Euphrates River. During his reign, five gods (Anu, Enlil, Ninurta, Ennugi, and Ea) took counsel, and it was decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. Enlil was the deity that was most eager to send the deluge. Ea probably opposed the measure, but all were sworn to secrecy.

Ea was a cunning god, and he managed to divulge the secret to Utnapishtim without talking directly to him He addressed his words to a reed wall, while Utnapishtim was on the other side of the wall and could easily hear him.

In this way, he told Utnapishtim to tear down his house and build a large boat. Its length was supposed to correspond to its width, and it was supposed to be covered with a roof. He was to make all living things come into the boat.

But many say why EA* RTH...

Buttonlip
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

 

So what would you call the great flood? All those babies that were drowned were sinners? All the pregnant women were sinners?

I would call anything related to bible scripture as a well intentioned poetic metaphor; "a figure of speech; to which a term or phrase is not literally applicable; in order to suggest a resemblance" which is not necessarily true.

If a fairy tell of total metaphoric nature why speak of the return of "THE"?


Revelations 19:11-19:21

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:


king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

It is good that metaphysical energy is emitted individually, 1 could imagine an advanced being, being able to SEE into the many souls intents telepathically and would work with the many who FEAR and are foolish... Its Ok the many unpolished lenses interpretations that is.

Revelations 16:

10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

Just because denial and fear fuel some does not mean the doesn't make balances. If YOU accept EA*RTH based society authority upon your flesh then why is a more Universal or Higher authority over the SOUL challenged so much or doubted to exist?

Dr1Akula
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

If I was a professor at university I would know I all the respectable professora, who's work was great, that teached even centuries before me.

That's why Pythagoras was mentioned by those great men, that lived after him.
They were respectable and eminent men of their time. that we know many things about their lifes from historical facts.

They didn't write just one book of crazy claims (which other books did John, Mathew, Luke and Mark wrote?),

They did massive work of literature full of wisdom, useful for society, which inspired generations and generations.

They didn't believe Pythagoras was the son of God, or did miracles, or was the chosen messiah or he resurrected.

They didn't meet each other (at least not all of them), they weren't friends, they didn't have the same teachings. and didn't create together a religious organization. *

And most significant they didn't promise us he will return again, raise up the dead, and judge the sinners.

So yes we have much more credible evidence that Pythagoras was an actual person



* Ancient Pythagorianism wasn't a religion, it was a philosophy and it was based on mathematics, music (the sound frequency) , and astronomy. They were the bright examble of science (at their time) trying to explain the metaphysical.

Akula you're vastly mistaken. Any evidence we have concerning Pythagoras is very deeply intertwined with myth and folklore....

For example, it was commonly thought that Apollo, yes that's right APOLLO was the father of Pythagoras. It was also commonly believed that Pythagoras had a golden thigh. So of course there were "crazy claims"....none of the "evidence" lends credibility towards Pythagoras being a real individual. So no, we don't have much more credible evidence that Pythagoras was an actual person. Unless of course you're saying that the son of Apollo with a golden thigh who thought beans were EVIL and would devour your soul is easier to believe in than the son of God that heals and blesses the sick and meek....

A2D

What happens if a link is found connecting the SON to Ancient energy/soul line?

Gryphon66
Actually, I meant to go back and give Pythagoras a go ... but got distracted for some reason.

Relying on an evidence-based system is best for a workaday reality. That's the beginning and end of it for me.

As to Pythagoras, my approach would be ... it's largely irrelevant whether he did or didn't exist as an individual. Why? Because the Pythagorean Theorem still works, whoever conceived it, wrote it down first, taught it, etc. Math doesn't depend on who says it or writes it down; authority or lack thereof doesn't change anything. I couldn't say that there are more than a few Greek scholars (or maybe a few neo-pagans) in the world who would even understand the context of Pythagoras' life or be concerned with his existence. The tenets of the Pythagorean "religion" as it was have mostly died out EXCEPT for the mathematical principles that remain true and useful I would guess that most folks, in their workaday reality, never considered the question ... because it doesn't make any difference.

Now whether Jesus Christ was exactly what he is purported to be is of ULTIMATE importance. Because Christianity, as opposed to mathematics, works on Faith. While we could argue that some of the small details aren't that important (like the manger or the withered fig-tree), if Jesus Christ was not the only begotten Son of God, if he didn't heal the sick, raise the dead, walk on water, die for our sins and then rise from the dead to rule at the right-hand of the Father God ... then the whole shooting match utterly collapses. If Christ wasn't Christ then Christianity is false because it doesn't work.

What is at stake in the two scenarios determines the importance of the evidence.

ADDED IN EDIT: Agree2Disagree you said:

Granted these details were written well after the time of Pythagoras....but doubting those records does nothing in terms of proving that Pythagoras himself was not ever a living individual....

Here's one of the crucial points of the whole matter in my mind. It is not that a lack of evidence proves that Jesus didn't exist ... it's that there isn't enough evidence to prove that he did exist in the way that Christianity requires. It's the old "extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence" vs. "The Bible says it; I believe it, and that settles it." It seems a small matter, but that's exactly the entirety of the problem in reconciling in any way the two differing perspectives, or at least, allow them to exist side-by-side (somewhat peaceably) .

edit on 21Sat, 04 Jan 2014 21:37:51 -060014p092014166 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)

Valid point but here's the kicker....why not let people be people and have their own opinions?

It's often times spouted that Christians shove their religion down others' throats....while I do not believe this to be the case(in some instances, yes, but largely no), I do see overwhelming evidence that atheists cannot and will not put away their assault against Christianity and/or religion.

To the atheist, the case of Christ should be just as largely irrelevant as is the case of Pythagoras. Why? Because the teachings of Christ still hold value. The atheist can, if he/she so pleased, willingly say "I believe in what this Christ figure taught, I believe we should love one another and treat each other with as much respect as we treat ourselves. I do believe lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, and coveting are wrong. I do believe there are principles upon which we can live to better our society." But with that, they do not have to accept Christ as a historical figure....Although that would be completely ignoring what little evidence we DO have.

Whether we accept the evidence or dismiss it, that's the key here. Out of all people, I believe scientists would be the ones to examine evidence instead of dismiss it, although time and time again I am proven wrong in that belief. We are so quick to judge what we do not understand.

Perhaps Pythagoras had a golden thigh. Perhaps he was even born to Apollo. And perhaps beans are evil and WILL devour your soul. Perhaps Christ was born to a virgin and did die on a cross in our stead. Perhaps he did resurrect after 3 days and will come back again to judge the world....

Until we can definitively PROVE that these things CANNOT (0% probability) happen, it is illogical to dismiss them entirely.

Our universe is a great example of things that CAN happen against all odds. It would be illogical to assume that any such place such as this could exist, if at first we had not seen the evidence.

We need to stop drawing conclusions and then searching for evidence to support our conclusion....We need to examine the evidence FIRST AND FOREMOST. It does not matter how irrelevant you believe the evidence to be. It does not matter how insane you believe it sounds. It requires an examination and thoughtful unbiased inquiry....

A2D

How is any atheist, agnostic, nonbeliever, unbeliever, heretic or whatever here "stuffing something down anyone's throat?" These are topical discussion forums and people, well, discuss things. How is it that merely seeing someone else's ideas or beliefs (or non-beliefs) somehow an ATTACK on Christians or Christianity? How is being unable to provide reasonable fact-based answers to questions some kind of persecution? We're here to DISCUSS! We're DISCUSSING. If anyone doesn't want to read these discussions, why do they click on them? How is the simple fact that people disagree with each other an attack? If they're being attacked, why do they keep posting the same responses over and over? Why not report it as abuse and move on? If you attack someone, why don't you expect retaliation in some way?

If there has ever been a group anywhere that could be called textbook passive-aggressive, it's probably 99% of the Christians I have known or witnessed speaking in person or on the net. That's not an attack, that's a statement of my experience. Typical Christians want to state their opinion, often based on nothing but faith, and they don't want anyone to say anything in disagreement. If you do, well, you're just wrong, often with no reasons offered. They don't deal with facts fairly; they use virtually every logical fallacy in the book (favorites seem to be strawman, loaded question and ad hominem), and they will not admit it when they are caught in mistake or intentional misrepresentation. (I have examples from ATS if you need them.)

And talking about a group that overall demonstrates arrogance and just plain bad manners ... wow.

Ophiuchus 13
It is good that metaphysical energy is emitted individually, 1 could imagine an advanced being, being able to SEE into the many souls intents telepathically and would work with the many who FEAR and are foolish... Its Ok the many unpolished lenses interpretations that is.

What is a metaphysical energy emitted individually that you are aware of and can explain? Are you speaking of 'lifeforce' or that radioactive thing that powers your being/seat of the soul/heart pump? The 'seeing part/telepathy to the outer worlds' or the pineal gland was shut down thousands of years ago by demi-gods trying to use this race as a slave race (Im just guessing here 400,000 thousand years ago).

vethumanbeing
Documents would be a starting point for laughter; 70 years by Luke and Paul's accounts, not exactly 'on scene' reporting. Accounts OF would be right -snip-

They were the olden day's version of the Internet I guess.

Ophiuchus 13
What happens if a link is found connecting the SON to Ancient energy/soul line?

There will never be a link found with hard science measurables; IT EXISTS by the mere fact of its absence screaming at you (total invisability right before your eyes) if you just slightly changed your focal point from inward to outward and reconnected some dot to dots. NO SON NO ANCIENT ENERGY SOUL LINE for anyone other than you (thats the point).

Snarl

vethumanbeing
Documents would be a starting point for laughter; 70 years by Luke and Paul's accounts, not exactly 'on scene' reporting. Accounts OF would be right -snip-

They were the olden day's version of the Internet I guess.

Snarl; I wish I knew probably the 'oral tradition' that was as stories go; grow in falseness or embellished urban legend; 5 fishes and 2 loaves of bread feeding a hundred humans were just that; the portions were to one human 1/2 an ounce (thimblefull) of each. Internet 'oral storied tradition' memes in its first form went VIRAL (took 2000 years though no pentium processor then).

What PROOF would one need in order to KNOW Jesus is real is my question?!