Bethlehem story, present reality: Jesus riding into Bethlehem today

buster2010

combatmaster
reply to post by defcon5

 

Nice try, but which descendants was god referring to when he spoke to Abraham?
Which people does god swear that land to, in the old testament?

Deuteronomy
8. See, I have set the land before you; come and possess the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them and their descendants after them.

I couldn't find the part where god promises that land to Ishmael or the Palestinians, but maybe you can find it.

God even explains borders to Moses and the ISraelites, just so there's no confusion

Deuteronomy
24. Every place upon which the soles of your feet will tread, will be yours: from the desert and the Lebanon, from the river, the Euphrates River, and until the western sea, will be your boundary.

Do you have any proof of this even happening besides a book that was written by Jews? And even going by your book the Jews have no claim to the land because Abraham broke the covenant with God when he followed his wife's orders over God's. Not to mention seeing how Israel is going against God's laws they are still breaking the agreement with God. So basically Israel is full of lying impostors who are crying for things that they have no rightful claim.

Easy there tiger,

Defcon5 was the one who quoted biblical passages in the wrong context and totally misunderstood it. So i simply corrected/enlightened him.

Now you are doing the same thing. Since when are you a biblical commentator buster? You put too much blind faith in your own personally motivated interpretation of scholarly texts that have been studied for millenia by individuals much more committed than either of us will ever be.

I'm a lot more worried about the human beings actually living, suffering, and dying right now than about two-thousand-year old zoning disputes. Since that approach is clearly not going to reduce the suffering and dying on either side, it seems like a thin claim as a defense against continuing to make the suffering and dying, on both sides, even worse. Even if it were completely true, and also if everyone had to adhere to any religious law claiming anything about a god or gods just happening to agree that the land belongs to the people of that religion, it's not getting anybody anywhere good, whereas there are much more relevant and valid arguments based on what some of us think of as the principle of "would you drop the epic fantasy saga for a moment and get real?"

There's a war. Israel is winning it, by a whole lot. Jewish people increasingly seem to feel like they're losing the war that Israel is winning, however. "Zion" is an idea (a simple one: that Jewish people need a safe homeland) with many potential models -- this is just one, one which was indeed artificially shoved into place during a time when nobody could, if one is compassionate towards them, be expected to be making decisions that are not understandably excessively emotional -- and it's broken. More Jewish people are horrified by this Israeli administration than support it, worldwide. Israel is a very, very small place, you know. Though I hear the administration have been working on that.

It doesn't matter how well-researched your arguments are about how your tree had every right to go over your neighbor's fence, if you're standing there while the tree is crushing your neighbor. And your neighbor isn't helping things by screaming that he will kill you and your whole family if you don't move the tree.

It would help if you'd stop explaining that it's his fault the tree is there anyhow, and also he has no right to be there so technically he is not there and so no tree could be on him anyway, and also this bulldozer you're now driving over his property should take care of any lingering academic concerns. This stuff isn't happening 2000 years ago in a dusty old book. It's happening to real people right now.

No matter what you say, I don't believe that if I came up with a 100% legal claim to own your home and property because my ancestors lived on your lot even FIFTY years ago, you'd -- actually, what is it you want the people who live on land other people wish to claim to do? Quietly leave? Seriously -- what would you do?

Whatever it was, throwing rocks at me if you know I have a gat is probably a real bad plan too. Telling everybody you're gonna wipe out my whole family for any reason will definitely not help your situation.

And yet all of those responses on both sides, despite clearly being irrational from the outside, make perfect human sense. The problem is that everybody is right, and the last person who almost made "hey maybe we can just compromise for real" work was assassinated...probably by the administration now in charge, for whom peace is a dirty word, but whose radical conservatism is appealing to a rapidly diminishing minority of Jews.


PS. Just for the clarity of record, that was a fictitious example. I do not have a gat. I am not a felon, but I cannot legally own a firearm, and nobody thinks I should be able to, even the most ardent gun-rights supporters. But I'm not bothered, since given my nervous disposition, like Kinky Friedman said, I feel that if somebody wants to shoot me they're gonna have to bring their own gun.

defcon5
reply to post by dragonridr

 

I don't know where you're getting that from, but that area has been called Palestine since ancient times:
Palestine

However, since even experts on the subject are so jaded that they cannot seem to agree on this topic, I see no point in us hashing over it to death here. Let me say this though...

I come from German, Russian, and Dutch ancestry, but my family has been in the US for many generations. Saying that any of these modern folks, who had not been on that land from 70AD to 1948AD, suddenly have a valid claim, is like saying that I have a valid claim to land in Germany, Russia, or the Netherlands.

Additionally, if you're going to return the land to the original indigenous people, then you should do it for all, not just one group.

Palestine used to be what we call syria today. And Isreal was known as judea. during the Roman rule it was broken up into 3 political districts or palistines. However who lived there the samaritans im sure you have heard of being a good samaritan haven't you? This land has never been called palestine untiul the british take possession of it after world war 1.

dragonridr

buster2010
reply to post by dragonridr

 

The only real difference is Israel will just destroy only the middle east

Sorry but this isn't true. Thanks to the traitors in the American government Israel has the ability to reach Europe as well.
Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under. Psychopaths like this shouldn't have nukes in their possession.

Ok i take it you dont like Israel because your ok with everyone else making threats just apparently not them. Israel is no threat to Europe sad you appear to have an agenda so dont want to look at it logically. There is absolutely 0 threat to Europe from Israel. However there is a threat from Iran when they get nuclear weapons and trust me they will. The only people that need to worry about getting hit by a couple of dozen warheads is their neighbors if they try once again to attack Israel.

Most of the people who have made threats against Israel has the right to make them because Israel is invading their lands. And lay off the Iran is getting the bomb propaganda Benny has been crying that for over twenty years and still no bomb. The only place a Iranian nuke exists is in his little pea brain.

reply to post by dragonridr

This land has never been called palestine untiul the british take possession of it after world war 1.

You need to brush up on your history a little bit. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece. Herodotus wrote of a district of Syria, called Palaistine in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.

buster2010
reply to post by dragonridr

 

This land has never been called palestine untiul the british take possession of it after world war 1.

You need to brush up on your history a little bit. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece. Herodotus wrote of a district of Syria, called Palaistine in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.

No again you do palistina was not a country it was a group of countries under roman rule its called a district. It was known as palistina Judaea consisted of phonice,judea,samaria,agtptus and Idumea i think that was all of them im sure someone will correct me if i forgot one. However the romans all ways called Israel Judaea not palestine. It was named this because of legends of the philistines who were a seafaring people from what is today greece living on the cost of canaan. However they were destroyed and became the stuff of legends. When they got to what is today Israel they found a group practicing judaism named for a man called Judah they were still very tribal and thus the name Judea. Later the romans just merge this area into syria roman emperor Hadrian created a huge district for tax purposes.Finally after two jewish revolts the romans succeeded in killing all most everyone who lived there this would later allow the christians to move in. Which in turn causes trouble with a man called Salidin who wanted to drive them out of the middle east.He was a sultan of egypt and syria at the time there was no religious context to the area for arabs that wouldnt come later until Mohamad goes to heaven from Jerusalem.

combatmaster

defcon5
reply to post by combatmaster

 

And by your logic that land really belongs to the Canaanites whom the Jews took it from.

Correct.... if any Canaanites came forward today to reclaim that land, according to Jewish law, no Jew is allowed to step in their way. However, they don't exist anymore, so your example is irrelevant and hence the land is rightfully the Jews' homeland!

Well there's the rub. Chanani ( the name the Canaanites called themselves) descendants currently inhabit Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, less so Iran and Iraq, and even today, exist inside occupied Palestine and Israel. DNA studies of the maternal haplogroups of *some* of the Palestinian people do show a genetic link and shared heritage with the sons of Ham, and yes, they do seem to want their land back.

dragonridr

buster2010
reply to post by dragonridr

 

This land has never been called palestine untiul the british take possession of it after world war 1.

You need to brush up on your history a little bit. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece. Herodotus wrote of a district of Syria, called Palaistine in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.

No again you do palistina was not a country it was a group of countries under roman rule its called a district. It was known as palistina Judaea consisted of phonice,judea,samaria,agtptus and Idumea i think that was all of them im sure someone will correct me if i forgot one. However the romans all ways called Israel Judaea not palestine. It was named this because of legends of the philistines who were a seafaring people from what is today greece living on the cost of canaan. However they were destroyed and became the stuff of legends. When they got to what is today Israel they found a group practicing judaism named for a man called Judah they were still very tribal and thus the name Judea. Later the romans just merge this area into syria roman emperor Hadrian created a huge district for tax purposes.Finally after two jewish revolts the romans succeeded in killing all most everyone who lived there this would later allow the christians to move in. Which in turn causes trouble with a man called Salidin who wanted to drive them out of the middle east.He was a sultan of egypt and syria at the time there was no religious context to the area for arabs that wouldnt come later until Mohamad goes to heaven from Jerusalem.

edit on 12/27/13 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

The sea faring race you're speaking of, where actually Phoenicians ...not philistines...and I am sitting here now with a book authored by a Jewish biblical archeologist who writes that apart from a single Egyptian Stela found ( one line of it actually ) no actual archeological evidence exists for a inhabiting Jewish population in the entire region, outside of a group of tribal Bedouins who were co-existing WITH Canaanites in the north regions prior to Assyrian rule either :/


Anyhoo, here is a pick of Palestine from 1890 ( below)

Ignoring for a moment who farted first on the land of Palestine and who did what to who in the ancient world..what this picture clearly shows is that by 1890, Palestine was a formed body of people, a proto nation state, and while they lacked official standing as a nation, they had a formed community, farms, schools, hospitals, churches/mosques and had towns and commerce etc...etc...etc..et al. They existed and lived under the name "Palestine" as a formed group and identity long before Balfour and the British carve up of the region. You can see there, clearly, the " Dutch Bank Of Palestine".

At the time of this picture, local inhabitants, Syrian, African, Egyptian, Arab and Bedouin lived amicably with Europeans and Muslim with Jewish and Christian communities, and this was all in existence, long before Zionists arrived armed with the Balfour declaration in 1917, to eventually, invade and usurp the land from beneath their feet evicting them from their homelands, farms homes and towns - against their will.

This pic is from the historical ( as opposed to the Zionist revisionists hysterical) archives of Palestine, during the period of transition to British protectionism, when the Dutch were still administrating most matters inside Palestine, which much like the archives of Afghanistan do, shows a thriving town filled with people of multicultural decent working together.

This area of Palestine in particular, less than 200 years later, is now surrounded now by a quasi theocratic state, one that is fast heading towards its goal of a Jews only/homogenous regional hegemony.

Truth speaks for itself and Zionist revisionists can re write all they like, say what they like, it makes no difference. The pictorial evidence of the reality of life in the country that was Palestine and what it was like there before and after Balfour and Zionism's arrival, is easily available to the public if they wish to know.

Unlike Australia say, who were also under British rule during this era, we were allowed to federate and eventually, claim nationhood. The country and people of Palestine, never got this chance, their land was stolen before they had a chance.

Whats more, the Balfour declaration itself stated that these preexisting communities of people, those who the declaration quite clearly called " Palestinians" were to be protected by any formation of a Jewish state, empowered to retain land, religion etc and regional rights of self determination. This is an agreement signed by Zionists but never honored by them. The STATED intent and idea of TBD was to bequeath land INSIDE PALESTINE for a Jewish homeland/state, it was expressively NOT a permission slip to give the entire country of Palestine to the Jewish people AS a state. This is how it was sold to the people there at the time.

While no one can prove it, it was clear Balfour had vested interests and was not honest about his true intentions in crafting the agreement as it appears that...

"....the Government deliberately set out to deceive
the Arab majority in Palestine as to their real intentions with
promises and guarantees that they had 'nothing to be frightened
about'[1]and that Britain would 'never consent'
to a Jewish Government being set up to rule their land.[2]"
Source

Its very very clear, the Zionists did not honor any agreement in the end, let alone the protections to the local population placed within agreement before they broke the deal and did and took whatever they wanted..stuff the inhabitants and thus, we have human quagmire #one.





Ro

reply to post by Rosha


I think the british signed the agreement because they would have been the likely home of all the displaced jews in world war 1 well them and germany so there solution send them to the holy land. Britain started a real mess they even had the option to create 2 separate states they didnt do it and no one knows why really. It was suggested they had the power to do it but instead they let it drag out on the world stage.Ive never understood why they did what they did????? My guess would be money there was a large Jewish population at the time.But there was definitely a struggle between them and germany over this area which culminates in world war 2 hard to tell which country to place the blame on the middle east both of them were involved deeply.

Your picture is from Syria see the deutsche bank in the picture.Its from Damascus here is some other cool photos from that time period.

www.manaz.net...

Rosha

combatmaster

defcon5
reply to post by combatmaster

 

And by your logic that land really belongs to the Canaanites whom the Jews took it from.

Correct.... if any Canaanites came forward today to reclaim that land, according to Jewish law, no Jew is allowed to step in their way. However, they don't exist anymore, so your example is irrelevant and hence the land is rightfully the Jews' homeland!

Well there's the rub. Chanani ( the name the Canaanites called themselves) descendants currently inhabit Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, less so Iran and Iraq, and even today, exist inside occupied Palestine and Israel. DNA studies of the maternal haplogroups of *some* of the Palestinian people do show a genetic link and shared heritage with the sons of Ham, and yes, they do seem to want their land back.

edit on 28-12-2013 by Rosha because: (no reason given)

These 'Chanani' you speak of are simply descendants of an ancient nation that no longer exists.

Language, religious faith, DNA, familial traditions that encompass all families of an entire nation etc etc. are all hallmarks of a nation. Do these 'Chanani' speak ancient Canaanite tongue? Do they worship the Canaanite gods/idols? Do they practice human sacrifice? Do they identify themselves as Canaanite over their respective current national identities?

If theanswer to the above questions is YES and they do in fact follow the above lifestyle of ancient Canaanites, and they decide today to congregate and form a 'Canaanite Federation', then according to Jewish law, Israel Jews have to leave without argument!

But we both know this is not the case.

dragonridr
reply to post by Rosha

 

I think the british signed the agreement because they would have been the likely home of all the displaced jews in world war 1 well them and germany so there solution send them to the holy land. Britain started a real mess they even had the option to create 2 separate states they didnt do it and no one knows why really. It was suggested they had the power to do it but instead they let it drag out on the world stage.Ive never understood why they did what they did????? My guess would be money there was a large Jewish population at the time.But there was definitely a struggle between them and germany over this area which culminates in world war 2 hard to tell which country to place the blame on the middle east both of them were involved deeply.

Your picture is from Syria see the deutsche bank in the picture.Its from Damascus here is some other cool photos from that time period.

www.manaz.net...

edit on 12/28/13 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

No, quite certain it is of Palestine. The Archive has it numbered along side many more. It is also on Justor, and Mir as being Palestine 1890. Ty for the link I love old historical pics.
Given the history of Jewish communities in Russia in eastern Europe at the time, no nation wished to host them. I think it was more a Zionist manipulation and maneuver, though yes, just as likely ' not in my backyard' British 'foresight.

Ro

combatmaster

Rosha

combatmaster

defcon5
reply to post by combatmaster

 

And by your logic that land really belongs to the Canaanites whom the Jews took it from.

Correct.... if any Canaanites came forward today to reclaim that land, according to Jewish law, no Jew is allowed to step in their way. However, they don't exist anymore, so your example is irrelevant and hence the land is rightfully the Jews' homeland!

Well there's the rub. Chanani ( the name the Canaanites called themselves) descendants currently inhabit Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, less so Iran and Iraq, and even today, exist inside occupied Palestine and Israel. DNA studies of the maternal haplogroups of *some* of the Palestinian people do show a genetic link and shared heritage with the sons of Ham, and yes, they do seem to want their land back.

edit on 28-12-2013 by Rosha because: (no reason given)

These 'Chanani' you speak of are simply descendants of an ancient nation that no longer exists.

Language, religious faith, DNA, familial traditions that encompass all families of an entire nation etc etc. are all hallmarks of a nation. Do these 'Chanani' speak ancient Canaanite tongue? Do they worship the Canaanite gods/idols? Do they practice human sacrifice? Do they identify themselves as Canaanite over their respective current national identities?

If theanswer to the above questions is YES and they do in fact follow the above lifestyle of ancient Canaanites, and they decide today to congregate and form a 'Canaanite Federation', then according to Jewish law, Israel Jews have to leave without argument!

But we both know this is not the case.

edit on 2013-12-28T10:39:33-06:00201312bam3112am3331 by combatmaster because: (no reason given)

You are aware that the Palestinian people en mass never left the area so they evolved as many groups have, away from the archaic? Can you tell me every Israeli citizen also worships exactly the same way and holds the exact same belief system and are doing the same rituals as 2500 BC - 1000AD? Are you aware in any way just how many so called "Jewish" customs and practices, not to mention religious authority structures are actually Babylonian aka Assyrian in nature and so not "Jewish" at all? Even the Torah was rewritten many times since the first exile not to mention the second. Even where the history and archeology does meet later down the track to place Jewish people in the area, it shows only tribal based communities, and that proto Jewish communities practiced the polytheistic religions of Canaanites they sojourned with!
Canaanites used the ritual bath for eons before any mention of Jewish people's adoption of it as a ritual practice appears in any historical record anywhere and Islam has been using the same ritual for over 6000 years! This is evidence suggestive of adoption and adaption too, just as the Palestinians adopted and adopted. It also does not simply 'disappear' away the lack of genetic/Semitic linage in current Israeli populations. Less than 1.4 % of current inhabitants of Israel even have Semitic ties at all not to mention only very recent ties to the land, where as the inhabitants of Palestine can trace and prove their Semitic linage and their inter generational occupation of the land in the region for close to a thousand years!


All tit for tat bs....and where does it end?

What remains is this: That it was the STATED intent of The Balfour Declaration to bequeath ***land INSIDE PALESTINE*** for a Jewish homeland/state. It was expressively NOT a permission slip to give the entire country of Palestine to the Jewish people AS a state.


The rest? is all a big con..a shell game of distraction from THAT very modern very manipulative, very dangerous act of deceit, as it is this willful deceit that has bought everything else to bear.


meh ppl will get it eventually.

Ro

Rosha

combatmaster

Rosha

combatmaster

defcon5
reply to post by combatmaster

 

And by your logic that land really belongs to the Canaanites whom the Jews took it from.

Correct.... if any Canaanites came forward today to reclaim that land, according to Jewish law, no Jew is allowed to step in their way. However, they don't exist anymore, so your example is irrelevant and hence the land is rightfully the Jews' homeland!

Well there's the rub. Chanani ( the name the Canaanites called themselves) descendants currently inhabit Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, less so Iran and Iraq, and even today, exist inside occupied Palestine and Israel. DNA studies of the maternal haplogroups of *some* of the Palestinian people do show a genetic link and shared heritage with the sons of Ham, and yes, they do seem to want their land back.

edit on 28-12-2013 by Rosha because: (no reason given)

These 'Chanani' you speak of are simply descendants of an ancient nation that no longer exists.

Language, religious faith, DNA, familial traditions that encompass all families of an entire nation etc etc. are all hallmarks of a nation. Do these 'Chanani' speak ancient Canaanite tongue? Do they worship the Canaanite gods/idols? Do they practice human sacrifice? Do they identify themselves as Canaanite over their respective current national identities?

If theanswer to the above questions is YES and they do in fact follow the above lifestyle of ancient Canaanites, and they decide today to congregate and form a 'Canaanite Federation', then according to Jewish law, Israel Jews have to leave without argument!

But we both know this is not the case.

edit on 2013-12-28T10:39:33-06:00201312bam3112am3331 by combatmaster because: (no reason given)

Chuckles.

You are aware that the Palestinian people en mass never left the area so they evolved as many groups have, away from the archaic? Can you tell me every Israeli citizen also worships exactly the same way and holds the exact same belief system and are doing the same rituals as 2500 BC - 1000AD? Are you aware in any way just how many so called "Jewish" customs and practices, not to mention religious authority structures are actually Babylonian aka Assyrian in nature and so not "Jewish" at all? Even the Torah was rewritten many times since the first exile not to mention the second. Even where the history and archeology does meet later down the track to place Jewish people in the area, it shows only tribal based communities, and that proto Jewish communities practiced the polytheistic religions of Canaanites they sojourned with!
Canaanites used the ritual bath for eons before any mention of Jewish people's adoption of it as a ritual practice appears in any historical record anywhere and Islam has been using the same ritual for over 6000 years! This is evidence suggestive of adoption and adaption too, just as the Palestinians adopted and adopted. It also does not simply 'disappear' away the lack of genetic/Semitic linage in current Israeli populations. Less than 1.4 % of current inhabitants of Israel even have Semitic ties at all not to mention only very recent ties to the land, where as the inhabitants of Palestine can trace and prove their Semitic linage and their inter generational occupation of the land in the region for close to a thousand years!


All tit for tat bs....and where does it end?

Its all a big con..a shell game of distraction

meh ppl will get it eventually.

Ro

edit on 28-12-2013 by Rosha because: (no reason given)

Listen.... im sick of having to explain this to every user seperately over time.... it drives me nuts. So forgive me for not being thorough, but here's why you are wrong!

You say the palestinians never left the area..... well, there was never such a thing as a palestinian nation or people. The name 'palestine' was given to the general area and does not refer to any single authoritative nation or bloodline.

Torah was rewritten many times since the first exile not to mention the second.

Its called the hypothesis theory and thats just what it is, a theory. Why do u speak of it as if its fact. The only fact you need to know is the example of the dead sea scrolls (not a letter was different to that of the present day torah).

Canaanites used the ritual bath for eons before any mention of Jewish people's adoption of it

The bible agrees with this, Canaanites are not Palestinians.

Islam has been using the same ritual for over 6000 years

Up until i read this quote form you i took you seriously. Now i realize it is pointless! Go study history!

reply to post by combatmaster


Combatmaster, I do concede I made an error in accidentally naming ablution as a 6000yr Islamic ritual, I was thinking 651 Ad and also thinking of Damascus which messed things up.....that said, I think you need to take your own advice too.

Ablution as a ritual and custom has existed in Persia since the foundation of Damascus and Carbon-14 dating at Tell Ramad, say's that the site of the original city has been occupied since the second half of the seventh millennium BC, possibly around 6300 BC. So yes, ritual ablution has existed within the Persian area for some time...and that time period is around 6000yrs and prior to this most archeologists hold its has Egyptian/North African origins. Records and archeological evidence increasingly shows that this cultural now religious practice of ablution is of pre-pharonic Egyptian origin and began merging as a shared cultural artifact within Egypt and within indigenous nomadic communities throughout greater Persia by at least 2500BC.

The ablution rite was also a noted and recognizable religious custom within indigenous Assyrian Zoroaster populations in 2500BC in Assyria - in what is today modern day Iraq- though some say this observance of it as a rite, may have begun as early as 2900BC there. It only began emerging again within (what became) the Zoroaster religious groups in Persia/Modern day Iran around 2000BC after the first exile of Zo's from that region, a later expulsion occuring during the rise of the Islamic caliphate.

The practice of Ghusl, which is what the Islamic ablution rituals are called now, only came "back" to Persia officially during the Sasanian Empire in 651, so it didn't begin then, it just returned to where it had begun. The Mikveh, or Jewish ritual ablutions are said to have emerged in the Southern Levant over a century later and neither Islamic or Jewish traditions predate the Zoroaster or those of its Egyptian root.

What all this boils down to is that rituals and religious customs are adopted adapted and change over time.
So any expectation of observance of Canaanite ritual as being a prerequisite or requirement for " proving" legitimacy or anything as far as the people who inhabited Palestine, is a joke. Jewish ritual isn't even Jewish in origin either and nor are Islamic rituals 'Islamic' in origin.....so its again, more distraction to the fact that by 1890, real people, living human beings were alive and farming and child raising, were very much existent as a group and groups of many groups, they had communities, were marrying and loving and fighting in the land of Palestine - the country ( not a formal nation) - and had real every day lives, homes and culture...and now..they dont...because Zionists lied...to *everyone*.

Ro

reply to post by Rosha

any expectation of observance of Canaanite ritual as being a prerequisite or requirement for " proving" legitimacy or anything as far as the people who inhabited Palestine, is a joke.

Why is it a joke? The land was called Canaan at the time, not palestine. So to prove one entire people are Canaanite, they must at least resemble them in their way of life, its not all about DNA. sure, judaism has changed over time but with reason and historical scholarly recorded oversight. Read talmud if you dont understand.

National identity is not a joke, if Palestinians have their own country thats also fine, they can have a piece of their original historical homeland, Jordan!

reply to post by Rosha


Well your argument seems to be for israel canaanites were a semitic people in other words they spoke hebrew. The canaanites dont separate from Israelites until the late bronze age. Until that point they were the same people and were conquered by the egyptians. Only when egyptians hold on the area starts to fall apart do the tribes separate. In the late bronze age we end up with new kingdoms forming they were the kingdom of Judah (southern Israel),Kingdom of Israel (northern Israel), Kingdom of Moab(southern Jordan),Kingdom of Aram Damascus (Syria),Kingdom of Ammon (northern Jordan),and the philistine city states (3 cities on the coast Gaza,Ashkelon and Ashdod).

There were no Canaanites left at the end of the bronze age because they became separate kingdoms and this is also when the Israelites are born.This whole area were semitic people with the exception of Kingdom of Aram Damascus which were assyrian. Eventually the tribe of the Israelites take over the others these fights are mentioned in the bible the only difference is a religious one genetically they were the same people.Jews were all over the middle east people forget arab countries kicked out the jews in the 1950s through the 70s making it look like they all just lived in Israel.

combatmaster
reply to post by Rosha

 

any expectation of observance of Canaanite ritual as being a prerequisite or requirement for " proving" legitimacy or anything as far as the people who inhabited Palestine, is a joke.

Why is it a joke? The land was called Canaan at the time, not palestine. So to prove one entire people are Canaanite, they must at least resemble them in their way of life, its not all about DNA. sure, judaism has changed over time but with reason and historical scholarly recorded oversight. Read talmud if you dont understand.

National identity is not a joke, if Palestinians have their own country thats also fine, they can have a piece of their original historical homeland, Jordan!

See, there's the thing. Most of us are content to be " just human" and most of us have already made the consciousness leap and growth in maturity it takes to recognize that we are ALL human....that where it matters, we are ALL the same. I have read a great deal of Talmudic literature and in the Talmud itself is the biggest clue to anyone observing this struggle as to 'why' the mindset of current day Israelite's is so FUBAR.
In what is available to be read of the Talmud all I see is fear. Not faith, just fear. All I saw when I read, were the base line scripts of separatism, isolationism, xenophobia. Excuses for the mutilation of law and the justifications/excuses for and of abuse - not to mention the seemingly never ending diatribes and disgusting promotion of racial prejudice, religious fundamentalism, social and intellectual abuse and elitist dogma. It is essentially an instruction manual for Jewish "pest" control. Little more.

Accepting you are just as and only as important as everyone else, takes a bit of courage, ego deflation and acceptance but for most of us, it is doable, as we we live it, without loss. We dont live in fear of differences or need to inflate them. It is way past time for an over-weaned Israel to grow the hell up and join the human race. Even a first year psychologist could see what is going on there and see what has been for the past hundred years for what it is. A state based on"Purity" and Jewish National identity (as Israel defines it) is a delusion. Worse it is a tactic. Even worse, it is a weapon.

Take a quick look at the stories of some Ex Shin Bet Chiefs and what they think Israel has become..then we'll talk " national identity". Pfft.

Ex Israeli Shin Bet compare Israel to Nazi Germany.


Ro.

dragonridr
reply to post by Rosha

 

Well your argument seems to be for israel canaanites were a semitic people in other words they spoke hebrew. The canaanites dont separate from Israelites until the late bronze age. Until that point they were the same people and were conquered by the egyptians. Only when egyptians hold on the area starts to fall apart do the tribes separate. In the late bronze age we end up with new kingdoms forming they were the kingdom of Judah (southern Israel),Kingdom of Israel (northern Israel), Kingdom of Moab(southern Jordan),Kingdom of Aram Damascus (Syria),Kingdom of Ammon (northern Jordan),and the philistine city states (3 cities on the coast Gaza,Ashkelon and Ashdod).

There were no Canaanites left at the end of the bronze age because they became separate kingdoms and this is also when the Israelites are born.This whole area were semitic people with the exception of Kingdom of Aram Damascus which were assyrian. Eventually the tribe of the Israelites take over the others these fights are mentioned in the bible the only difference is a religious one genetically they were the same people.Jews were all over the middle east people forget arab countries kicked out the jews in the 1950s through the 70s making it look like they all just lived in Israel.

What we were discussing was genetic linage, not cultural and I was responding to the ludicrous notion presented that unless Palestinians live they did 4000 years ago they cannot be considered Canaanite? That form of cultural 'sameness' from one eon to another was the joke I referred to as there is NO group alive in this region where life as it was in 2500 BC is lived culturally religiously or socially today.
The small example of Jewish and Islamic practices also stemming from earlier regions was only to emphasise that point. There is no such an animal as " Jewish" or "Islamic" not in purity, they are both later adaptations of the Zoroaster schools which were adaptions of the Ethiopian and pre-pharonic Egyptian religious beliefs et al et al etc etc...... ties and times...change.

Also, one last point. The bible, for the purposes of actuate historical record, given its theological motivations, is not considered to be an historical document. See KW Whitelam's "The End of Israels History" in the Semitic Journal link for an excellent academic presentation discussion and explanation of the debate between the actual vs biblical history of the land of Palestine. Better still have a look at " The Invention of Ancient Israel - The Silencing of Palestinian History", a document whose views at least can be supported by the archeological evidence and historical records both.


Ro.

reply to post by Rosha


But why is Jewish National Identity a delisuion? We have both come to the conclusion that Judaism has existed before any notion of 'Palestine'.

I understand your viewpoint on Talmud etc. But we were talking about the fact that, despite minute adaptions in religious law to the modernizing world, Judaism is representative of the same things it was back in ancient times.

Now you move onto why the State of Israel doesnt need to exist in its current form, this is back to square one!

You should go to Gaza and rally alongside Hamas. Im sure that they will protect you from the Zionist pig

You believe what you want, I already KNOW what i KNOW because i have lived there in those places you only hear about on the news.

No more typing to you today, i realize it is pointless!

Rosha

dragonridr
reply to post by Rosha

 

Well your argument seems to be for israel canaanites were a semitic people in other words they spoke hebrew. The canaanites dont separate from Israelites until the late bronze age. Until that point they were the same people and were conquered by the egyptians. Only when egyptians hold on the area starts to fall apart do the tribes separate. In the late bronze age we end up with new kingdoms forming they were the kingdom of Judah (southern Israel),Kingdom of Israel (northern Israel), Kingdom of Moab(southern Jordan),Kingdom of Aram Damascus (Syria),Kingdom of Ammon (northern Jordan),and the philistine city states (3 cities on the coast Gaza,Ashkelon and Ashdod).

There were no Canaanites left at the end of the bronze age because they became separate kingdoms and this is also when the Israelites are born.This whole area were semitic people with the exception of Kingdom of Aram Damascus which were assyrian. Eventually the tribe of the Israelites take over the others these fights are mentioned in the bible the only difference is a religious one genetically they were the same people.Jews were all over the middle east people forget arab countries kicked out the jews in the 1950s through the 70s making it look like they all just lived in Israel.

What we were discussing was genetic linage, not cultural and I was responding to the ludicrous notion presented that unless Palestinians live they did 4000 years ago they cannot be considered Canaanite? That form of cultural 'sameness' from one eon to another was the joke I referred to as there is NO group alive in this region where life as it was in 2500 BC is lived culturally religiously or socially today.
The small example of Jewish and Islamic practices also stemming from earlier regions was only to emphasise that point. There is no such an animal as " Jewish" or "Islamic" not in purity, they are both later adaptations of the Zoroaster schools which were adaptions of the Ethiopian and pre-pharonic Egyptian religious beliefs et al et al etc etc...... ties and times...change.

Also, one last point. The bible, for the purposes of actuate historical record, given its theological motivations, is not considered to be an historical document. See KW Whitelam's "The End of Israels History" in the Semitic Journal link for an excellent academic presentation discussion and explanation of the debate between the actual vs biblical history of the land of Palestine. Better still have a look at " The Invention of Ancient Israel - The Silencing of Palestinian History", a document whose views at least can be supported by the archeological evidence and historical records both.


Ro.

edit on 31-12-2013 by Rosha because: typo

The point your missing is there is no difference to what you call palestinians and the jewish people. The only difference is religion. That is why palestinians never had a national identity until it was created by the PLO. This was an attempt to remove Judaism from the area. If the jews worshipped allah we wouldnt have a fight in the middle east at all since they are the same people. Were you aware genetic analysis shows a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians and Jews?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

So this isnt about who owned the land this is about a battle over religion. Arab nations surrounding Israel have been trying to get rid of the jews even starting a palestinian conflict to do it. Syria and lebanon created the palestinian problem. Lets look at some history it all starts in 1948 in what is known as the palestinian war. this lead to a mass exodus of palestinians to gaza because the un set up refugee camps there at the time under control of lebanon.he Gaza Strip is home to a population of more than 1.5 million people, including 1.1 million Palestine refugees most from syria at the request of the government. Arab leaders do not allow palestinians to take residence in their country even today they have refugee camps in lebanon jordan syria and saudi arabia. Why because the arab nations dont consider them arabs since they have more in common with the jewish people.

But i digress back to 1948 first the palestinians were not rounded up they were told to flee and in other countries promised land by arab leaders and do to the war thought they would take care of them they lied to them. At the same time this is going on they start expelling jews from there territory along with other palestinians and funneling them to refugee camps.Did you know 20 percent of the iraqi population was jewish prior to 48? Prior to this Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years. After the Arabs rejected the United Nations decision to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, however, the Jews of the Arab lands became targets of their own governments’ anti-Zionist fervor. Throughout 1947 and 1948, Jews in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen (Aden) were persecuted, their property and belongings were confiscated, and they were subjected to severe anti-Jewish riots instigated by the governments.It was so bad in Iraq practicing Judiasm became a crime in syria they froze all jewish bank accounts making them penniless overnight. In May 1948, the New York Times ran an article headlined, "Jews in Grave Danger in all Muslim Lands: Nine Hundred Thousand in Africa and Asia face wrath of their foes." So now we know Jews were being kicked out back to what you call palistinians as i said arab nations didnt want them either so they start funneling them to refugee camps. This leads to the refugee camps in lebanon which later Yasser Arafat would use to start the PLO. Do you know how many palestinians were displaced by the Jews estimates around 10000. How many were displaced by the arabs themselves over 2 million.

Did you know that gaza wasnt even under Israeli control until the 6 day war in 1967. And they even tried to return the land to lebanon who refused to take it back. Basically it was the best thing that could have happened to them however because thats when power and water facilities are built setting up a basic infrastructure.Before this they were still living in tents. Wasnt until after 68 that construction started occurring of hospitals schools and yes even a police force. By this point arab countries had taking drastic steps to make sure these palestinians couldnt enter there country by building walls still there to this day.

So everything you think you understand about palestinians is propaganda started by the arab league.They created the displaced Palestinians if we only had to deal with just the ones created by the jews this conflict would have been over long ago. When dealing with about 10000 the Israelis would have given them some land and moved on. Since there are still palestinians in Israel that own land and are Israeli citizens.