Woman dies after pharmacy refuses to give her EpiPen

reply to post by schuyler


The pharmacist is also not a doctor, they are not trained to diagnose medical emergencies. They dispense medicine that has been prescribed, they do not diagnose.

ldyserenity
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

There's no way to od on it, one pen contains the dosage in moderation, unless you asked for 40 damn pens you're not going to overdose...I was an EMT in the ARMY and yes I could list them, but you'd have to be abusing the drug again to even come near that.
ETA: Nobody that doesn't need the drug would ever use it, nobody would not use it for anything but what it's intended for with any common sense it isn't like you can get high off it.
Nobody without severe allergy reactions even knows about this drug unless they're a medical professional or someone they know is a person who needs it. What do you really think people are going to be going around just shooting up epipens lol. or shooting other people with it (with guns so readily available?) REALLY??? HAHAHAHA

edit on 2013/12/23 by ldyserenity because: to add

Ah, an EMT in the Army. Now I see where you get your brilliant lack of information and lack of understanding. Let's say you give an epi pen to someone with wolf-Parkinson-white syndrome or CAD or any number of different dysrythmias. There is no doctor involved so no exam, no medical history, just over the counter. They inject it and die. Trouble is, you don't even know what WPW is or why a even a moderate dose of adrenaline would be very dangerous for patients with it, you are just so wrapped up in your own small experience level and attribute to greed what has very logical reasoning behind it.

The reason why one needs a script to get an epi pen is that there are many people who have underlying problems where a bolus (look that one up too) of adrenaline could be very dangerous. Having the script shows that the person (ideally) was evaluated by a healthcare professional, either found not to have risks from the epinephrine or that the risks they had were ameliorated, and that they knew the proper use of the device. The very fact you thought I was talking about "overdose" shows you don't know what you are talking about.

toastyr
reply to post by whitewave

 

I'm declaring emphatically: that declaring emphatically does not make your statement any more true, does it.

Vitamin C is great prevention for anaphylactic shock. If the person is unconscious there is the IV route for vitamin C. Too bad they don't make vitamin C in a travel kit like a pen.

Thanks anyway for your story, I don't want to search that massive thread, no biggy it appears anyway.

Quick--tell me the difference in bioavailability in IM (a pen) and IV. How much IM vitamin C equals an IV dose? How does vitamin C reverse anaphylaxis?

I suppose it depends on the legal status of these pens in Ireland. I was under the impression that in the USA, a pharmacist can dispense insulin without a prescription to a diabetic -- as insulin can save their life. From what I've been told (I have no evidence or experience) pharmacists can't really deny someone insulin if they ask for it -- the risk of death or serious medical complications is to great.

Now, insulin isn't exactly safe either. If someone that doesn't require insulin takes it -- they can have a very bad reaction.

In my eyes, not giving someone an epipen is similar to denying a diabetic their insulin. I know some pharmacy technicians, I'll ask them their thoughts on this sad story.

MystikMushroom
I suppose it depends on the legal status of these pens in Ireland. I was under the impression that in the USA, a pharmacist can dispense insulin without a prescription to a diabetic -- as insulin can save their life. From what I've been told (I have no evidence or experience) pharmacists can't really deny someone insulin if they ask for it -- the risk of death or serious medical complications is to great.

Now, insulin isn't exactly safe either. If someone that doesn't require insulin takes it -- they can have a very bad reaction.

In my eyes, not giving someone an epipen is similar to denying a diabetic their insulin. I know some pharmacy technicians, I'll ask them their thoughts on this sad story.

In the US, if a person had a previous prescription of a medication, but not a new one, they can do what is known as an "emergency fill" of the same medication they had previously, without changes, for a few days until they can get an Rx from their doctor. This, of course does not cover the schedule II medications (narcotics). The pharmacist cannot do it for new medications Thus, if you ran out of insulin and have already been on insulin, the pharmacist can cover you until you get a new script from your doctor. If you go to the pharmacist and ask for insulin, he's not qualified to diagnose IDDM so he cannot give it to you without a script. I hope that makes it clear.

I don't know about Irish rules. In Mexico, the pharmacist can be a prescriber and diagnoser, IIRC.

As a parent with a child who has a lethal peanut allergy, i can safely say that were I in the dire circumstances that this family experienced, there would be pharmacy techs in the hospital, I would be in jail, but my kid would get an epipen and be alive.

IMO if they weren't willing to fight for their daughter's life, they should have at least brought her back into the pharmacy, so the sons of bitches had to watch her die. That might have changed a mind or two.

What I feel would have been the best reaction to the situation by the pharmacy is immediately call (their version of) 911, state there is someone having a severe allergic reaction that does not have a prescription for an epipen, and to please arrive as soon as possible prepared to deal with the situation.

Giving the medicine illegally is a no win situation. Doing nothing is not a great option either.

The parents made a huge mistake by going to a pharmacist. Either rush them to the hospital or dial an emergency number, or both.

The law is the law is the law. When the letter of the law is about punishment and the consequences for breaking those laws are extremely steep, then, no, people are not going to break the law.

I can't speak for Ireland, but I know that, in the U.S., giving out such a piece of medicine without a prescription could have resulted in some serious time in prison and hefty financial penalties. For all those pharmacy people knew, they could have been junkies or something.

When we, by law, create situations where people are more or less choosing between their own lives and the possible lives of someone else, we shouldn't be surprised when they choose their own, especially when the people in question probably have families and children to support.

wow, reading the responses on this thread is bewildering..

from my personal stand, i'm both sad and happy that some accept it as normal and some condemn it as unnecessary. a good samaritan is a rare breed nowadays, people too concerned about who to blame for the misfortunes that befall them. it also doesn't help that the system promotes these kinds of blames... stupid system, always trying to make money out of blame. people filled with pain and anger and don't know how to neutralize it, always multiplying passing it to the next.

WilsonWilson
To me this is no different to the case of the nurse who refused to give cpr to somebody who was having a heart attack.
You can stand back and say well I don't want to be sued, but then you have to live with that persons death on your conscience, although these people probably don't have them, which is why they don't help in the first place.

Not remotely the same. There is no CPR prescription. Many places have laws protecting those giving aid. If I was in an area where there were no laws protecting me, I would not give CPR though I am certified. Family members often times will sue if it is at all possible, regardless of whether you did the right thing, and made no mistakes.

If you live in an area that does not protect 'good Samaritans' then write and get a law passed.

A more detailed account of this incident can be found here;

www.herald.ie...

Regarding the need for a prescription, the abovementioned article says is;

Last night, a member of the pharmacy profession in Dublin told this newspaper that regulations prohibit the dispensing of EpiPen injections without a prescription.

It is classed as an S1B drug containing adrenalin and has the potential to do harm. Pharmacists are not allowed to give the injection. Mujahid Najeebhun (29), a security man at Clarkes shoe store at the corner of O'Connell Street and Abbey Street, said: "I was very stressed seeing this happen.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by schuyler

 

The pharmacist is also not a doctor, they are not trained to diagnose medical emergencies. They dispense medicine that has been prescribed, they do not diagnose.

Of coarse they aren't doctors and do not diagnose, but this is the biggest load of BS in the world to let a person die like this.

A true pharmacists would know that an epinephrine shot would not kill anyone, especially an epipen.

This is just adrenaline our bodies actually produce it naturally. For christ-sakes this isn't a dangerous drug just one that speeds our motors up a bit.

And the amount in a pre-filled epipen is no big deal at all.

cuckooold
A more detailed account of this incident can be found here;

www.herald.ie...

Regarding the need for a prescription, the abovementioned article says is;

Last night, a member of the pharmacy profession in Dublin told this newspaper that regulations prohibit the dispensing of EpiPen injections without a prescription.

It is classed as an S1B drug containing adrenalin and has the potential to do harm. Pharmacists are not allowed to give the injection. Mujahid Najeebhun (29), a security man at Clarkes shoe store at the corner of O'Connell Street and Abbey Street, said: "I was very stressed seeing this happen.

Again this is the biggest load of Horse manure I have ever heard.

Anyone that has ever used or knows about Epipens, Epi-juniors, and adrenaline period knows that a pharmacists would know that it's no big deal.

Someone is trying to cover their asses, but most of the knowledgeable world already knows this.

smh

And I am truly sorry for the family that this happened to, especially before Christmas.

reply to post by Realtruth


Of interest is in the article it says pharmacists are not permitted to give the injection; as a teacher I am not only permitted to give the injection, I could potentially be charged with dereliction of duty if I had an EpiPen at hand and did not administer the dose as requred.

What I find interesting is that among the many responses to this article, very few have commented regarding the fact that the ultimate responsibility lies with the girl in question as she did not have her Pen handy, and she ate the dish without checking if it had nuts or not. I feel the mother is out of line appropriating the blame on the pharmacist, as the girl was careless on 2 points of absolute necessity for those suffering anaphylaxis.

Yes, it's worth looking at the laws that exist, and yes, definitely worth investigating ways of ensuring those suffering anaphylaxis can access the medication they need (perhaps a card identifying them as anaphylactic in cases of emergency like this one), but before shaming pharmacists and the laws governing public health, surely people have the ability to see that if this girl either had a Pen, or checked what was in the dish this situation would not have arisen.

I find it incredulous (and amazingly ignorant) that the mother states 'How could a peanut kill my daughter?' Either the paper has misrepresented what was said, or the mother suffered a temporary episode of foot in mouth disease. I do not see how anyone familiar with anaphylaxis should say such a thing.

cuckooold

What I find interesting is that among the many responses to this article, very few have commented regarding the fact that the ultimate responsibility lies with the girl in question as she did not have her Pen handy, and she ate the dish without checking if it had nuts or not. I feel the mother is out of line appropriating the blame on the pharmacist, as the girl was careless on 2 points of absolute necessity for those suffering anaphylaxis.

but before shaming pharmacists and the laws governing public health, surely people have the ability to see that if this girl either had a Pen, or checked what was in the dish this situation would not have arisen.

I think you may be missing the whole point here.

If your life, or your loved one hung in the balance for whatever reason, I would hope if someone had the know how, or ability to save you they would without thought.

So what, she forgot her Epipen. Big deal.

I teach and coach as well, do you know how many parents/children actually forget medication they need? With our busy self-absorbed lifestyles it happens.

Also do you know how many EpiPens malfunction due to leaking or breaking before use? Been there, done that.


Let me give you a whole different scenario.

Your child is drowning because there foot got caught in seaweeds, people on land see him/her struggling just below the surface, and hear intermittent cries for help, but even though they all know how to swim, or could have just tossed a flotation device, they watch the child drowned.

And you can't understand why a piece of seaweed killed your child..........It's called shock, denial and mourning.

The basic moral of the story is if you can help save someones life do it, most countries have "Good Samaritan Laws" that protect if people are worried about lawsuits.

That 14 year old girl was asking for someone to save her life, and I'm sure she would have administer the dose herself.

Peace,

RT

reply to post by Realtruth


Um, there is no moral, it's a real life news story, not a fable or moral tale.

I don't think I am missing the point as there is not one. A girl is dead, and her family grieving because the girl suffered a fatal episode of anaphylaxis, and it was all too preventable at the source. This is not a feel good movie with a happy ending, this is real life.

reply to post by cuckooold


Apparently pharmacists are medically trained and can override the rules at their discretion.

OpinionatedB


Hell, they sue even when it is their own damn fault, spill hot coffee in your lap while driving? instant millionaire!

People often use this as an excuse when they don't know what that case was really about. This is a good case of doing your own research.

First off, she wasn't driving, she was a passenger in the car.
Secondly, she received third degree burns and had to have skin grafts done.

Third, MacDonalds had already had 700 previous reports of injury from coffee. Having to already settle them. Many contained 3rd degree burns.

That particular locations had already had several complaints of the coffee being too hot.


Liebeck original claim was only for 20k to cover medical costs and lost wages. It was the MacDonalds only offered her 800. So THEN it went to trial.

If they had paid the 20k she asked for, they would not of ended up giving millions.

Despite having 700 complaints about the coffee, MacDonalds hadn't bothered changing the policy. THAT is why they got sued, and this wasn't the first one.

MacDonalds admitted it had known for over 10 years that the temperature of their coffee caused three degree burns in a matter of seconds.

McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.

Still think it is frivolous??

LeatherNLace
If I am having an allergic reaction like this, I'm headed to the hospital, not the pharmacy. I don't know how it works in Ireland, but in the US, a pharmacy could be sued, shutdown and possible jail time for giving out medication without a prescription. It's a sad story, but the ill person should have had wits enough have called 911 or go to the hospital.

its all well and good saying that but with a reaction like this when your daughter could die in minutes you would be looking for the closest place to get an epipen and not expect to be denied it when your daugher is obviously having a severe reaction. my bet is the pharmacy was very close to the restuarant hence they went there.

and its sad but if it had been me i would have given it because # my job over someones life. also # the pharmarcy attended if i was the parent, i would have been in that place quicker then you could blink to forcibly get the epipen myself if i had to rather then watch my daughter die on the street.

reply to post by nixie_nox


yes, I do.

Coffee is hot, coffee is supposed to be hot. A few fun facts for you.

"When tap water reaches 140º F, it can cause a third degree (full thickness) burn in just five seconds." www.burnfoundation.org...

"Your [coffee] brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. Colder water will result in flat, underextracted coffee while water that is too hot will also cause a loss of quality in the taste of the coffee."
www.ncausa.org...

NO ONE should become a millionaire from spilling their own damn coffee in their lap, coffee that if a person had even half a brain would have realized would cause 3rd degree burns if they spilled it.

NO ONE should be able to sue someone else for their own STUPIDITY!

I have never in my life drank a cup of coffee that was unable to give 3rd degree burns to my lap. (hence the whole blow then sip thing) I don't keep a flimsy cup of hot coffee between my legs because I am intelligent enough to realize this fact. So do car makers, they make cup holders for exactly this reason!