A Message from The Qur'an

nenothtu
Some of them believe that doctrine. Not all.

The majority of Christians believe in a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, ... Anyone who recites the creed.
That's not 'some'. That's 'most'. And it's not something that Muslims believe in.
If you find me a Muslim who worships Jesus as God incarnate, then you'll have
found a Muslim who worships the same God that MOST Christians do.

reply to post by FlyersFan

It is most significant that neither the witnesses nor Sanhedrin members accused Jesus of ever claiming to be God. Jews had so accused Jesus twice in his career; yet both times he denied their accusation (John 5.16-47; 10.30-38). Apparently, they accepted his denial.

According to Matthew, Caiaphas exclaimed, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26.63). Jesus answered Caiaphas somewhat obscurely, yet affirmatively, “You have said it yourself” (Matthew 26.64). Then he added, “nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN” (v. 64). This addition is a clear self-designation as the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7.13-14 and “Lord” in Psalm 110.1, the latter of whom Jews interpreted as the Messiah. For the first time, Jesus unequivocally claimed publicly of being the Messiah-the Son of God-the Son of Man. It is the most thoroughgoing self-identification he ever made. He fully revealed who he was, yet he did not say that he was God. Rather, he distinguished himself from God and asserted that in the future God would vindicate him to the utmost

servetustheevangelical.com...


That's because Muslims would rather worship the ONE Jesus Himself worshiped, that One He prayed to. It's not our fault some people refuse to listen to Jesus on the matter.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

OpinionatedB:
Jesus clearly explained the matter, and He was not in agreement with your interpretation.

Chiram:
Really..... He (Jesus) was NOT in agreement with my interpretation. Don’t you mean that YOU are not in agreement with my interpretation? Well we can all beg to differ can’t we, and I can live with that. I always respect people’s opinions, even negative one's.

I’m not sure what your point is here, if you were referring to my previous post that "we are all children of God." What has Abraham got to do with it where you have quoted the verse "Abraham is our Father"?

reply to post by chiram


The reason I am referring to this is because Jesus made it clear that to be considered a child or a son of God you must follow His teachings.

That was what was clear in the passage. You are a child of the one you follow, whether that be God and His Prophets, or satan... you can only be called a child of the one you follow.

While God created us all..... even satan, we can therefore all be called God's creation, but we cannot all be called children of God, in Jesus' own words.

And of course we can agree to disagree, but Jesus was quite clear what being a child of God meant... it is meant, at least back then in that time and culture, much more than just being a creation of God.

FlyersFan

nenothtu
Some of them believe that doctrine. Not all.

The majority of Christians believe in a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, ... Anyone who recites the creed.
That's not 'some'. That's 'most'. And it's not something that Muslims believe in.
If you find me a Muslim who worships Jesus as God incarnate, then you'll have
found a Muslim who worships the same God that MOST Christians do.

I can play semantics, too.

"Most" is precisely "some", because it is not "all".

See?

Isn't this fun?

Which creed are you talking about when you say "the creed"? the Nicene Creed?

That one came about a good while AFTER Jesus walked the earth...

... and was made by men, not God.

chiram

Chiram:
Really..... He (Jesus) was NOT in agreement with my interpretation. Don’t you mean that YOU are not in agreement with my interpretation? Well we can all beg to differ can’t we, and I can live with that. I always respect people’s opinions, even negative one's.

I dunno about anyone else, but I can agree to disagree. I have no urge or need to "convert" anyone, and in fact don't think that is MY job at all. I do, however, enjoy the discussions.

I’m not sure what your point is here, if you were referring to my previous post that "we are all children of God." What has Abraham got to do with it where you have quoted the verse "Abraham is our Father"?

The operative part in this case is not the part about Abraham, it is the part where they say "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God." THAT is the part which has direct bearing in this discussion, since you are not debating whether or not we are all Abraham's Children (although that case could be made from the exact same passage - and would be equally and just as demonstrably wrong). The discussion instead revolves around just WHO is "God's Children", just WHO is referred to in the passage you quoted saying "I… will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters saith the Lord Almighty. " from 2 Corinthians. The question is who is being referred to by "you" and "ye" in that verse. the surrounding verses answer that question quite handily.

The rest of OB's quote has Jesus clearly stating WHO is qualified as a "child of God", and who is not qualified. It's in an uncanny agreement with the verses surrounding yours, giving the same answer to the same question.

I've not ran across the biblical distinction mentioning a "TRUE Child of God" vs. a standard "child of God" Can you point me to where that distinction is made in the Bible? If not, then I submit that you might need to look elsewhere to find where that distinction is made, rather than in what is claimed to be what God said. You might start by examining "Secular Humanism" - I think they have a doctrine along those lines.

reply to post by nenothtu

Nenothtu: I dunno about anyone else, but I can agree to disagree. I have no urge or need to "convert" anyone, and in fact don't think that is MY job at all. I do, however, enjoy the discussions.

I too have no need to convert anyone; I also enjoy the discussions on different Religious views. There are bits of truth in everything and we can all learn from one another.

Let’s admit it; the bible doesn’t really make sense to most people. Do you really understand it? Most people interpret it literally; even Jesus spoke in parables to those who were considered unworthy of the knowledge.

OpinionatedB:
The interpretation of the ‘children of God’ can be found in this book also which I fully agree with “The Gospel of Jesus: in search of His Original Teachings” by John Davidson, 1000 page encyclopaedia. Most of it can be viewed online in Google Books Here. You would need to read the full 3 pages quoted below. It gives an excellent interpretation of most of Jesus’ parables. I think it also discusses the ‘Trinity’ which some Religions don’t follow. Take a look and see what you think. Of course it’s open for discussion.



P201 - “The Temple of God and the Sons of God”……


P202 - God that made the world and all things therein…… we are also His offspring”……


P203 - All human beings are members of ONE family “of one blood” all are made by him….. the idea that we are the “offspring” or children of God was not a new one…….. One God and Father of all and through all, and in you all…… We are all, therefore, the children of God. This is why Jesus called God the Father. He was not just the Father of Jesus, but the Father of everyone, at any time of place.



P379 – Discusses the verses ‘OpinionatedB’ quoted on “Abraham,” but this page is not included in the review, so I will copy a little here:


Your Father the Devil: Jesus then continues, speaking presumably to other Jews who were not his disciples:

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. (John 8:37-41)

Jesus says that he realizes they have Abraham as their ancestor, but Abraham was also a great prophet or mystic and if they were truly Abraham’s children, SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING, they would act as Abraham had taught. Yet, he says, you are plotting to kill me, something which Abraham would never have done. They do not recognize who Jesus really is because “my word hath no place in you,” because they are neither initiated by him into the Word nor are they destined to become his initiates. Although Jesus has come from the Father, is speaking only of his own personal, inner experience when teaching them, and is relating only what is true, they do not believe him, because “ye do the deeds of your father.” And he goes on to explain who their father is:


P380 – continues….

reply to post by OpinionatedB



So Sorry, I left an important part out of P380 which explains things better.

OpinionatedB: That was what was clear in the passage. You are a child of the one you follow, whether that be God and His Prophets, or satan... you can only be called a child of the one you follow.
While God created us all..... even satan, we can therefore all be called God's creation, but we cannot all be called children of God, in Jesus' own words.

CORRECT!

Chiram: We are ALL children of God, but due to evil inclinations in some, we have the capacity to become “children of the wicked one.” I assume this what you meant?

THEN DO YOU CONSIDER THIS TO BE CORRECT?

Nenothtu: That’s not what I believe. I don’t believe there are evil inclinations in “some”, I believe there are evil inclinations in ALL.

CHIRAM: Yes that’s correct, there is the capacity for evil inclinations in ALL, didn’t explain that too well. We all have the ability to lean towards evil tendencies, as well as to lean towards good tendencies. Evil lies in the veil of duality of one’s own mind, where duality implies both good and bad. The one can’t exist without the other.

Then looking back through P380:
The fact that they did not recognise him (Jesus) means that they were in the grip of Satan, for it is either Satan or the Supreme Lord who oversees the progress of the soul through life. This is the point that Jesus is making – there are only two possible ‘fathers’ – God or the Devil.

Jesus therefore points out to them that although they think that they are following God’s will, in fact they are entirely in the grip of their own mind, in the grip of Satan. So their father may be more accurately described as Satan, not the Supreme Lord, for they are doing Satan’s will, not God’s will. This is the case with everyone in this world. We are all decived by our own minds, by Satan.

I THINK WE HAVE BOTH INTERPRETED THIS CORRECTLY, BUT THAT’S DEBATABLE, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

nenothtu
Which creed are you talking about when you say "the creed"? the Nicene Creed?
That one came about a good while AFTER Jesus walked the earth...
... and was made by men, not God.

That's the one. Yep. Made by men ... interpreting their holy book.
But the fact is that MOST Christians do indeed believe in a Trinity God.
Right or wrong. One God. Three aspects or manifestations.
That's different from the Muslims.
Like I said, find me a Muslim who worships Jesus as God incarnate and
you will have shown me a Muslim who worships the same god as most christians.

OpinionatedB
It's not our fault some people refuse to listen to Jesus on the matter.

Christians would say the same thing about you and your interpretation of their bible.

reply to post by chiram


I see that you are online at the moment, and may be expecting a response. I'll have to get to it later, because I've got to get ready for work and spend the next few hours pretending to work for a living. I don' want to give a rushed, flippant or unconsidered answer, so later in the evening (give me maybe 12 to 14 hours) I'll respond.

FlyersFan

That's the one. Yep. Made by men ... interpreting their holy book.
But the fact is that MOST Christians do indeed believe in a Trinity God.
Right or wrong. One God. Three aspects or manifestations.
That's different from the Muslims.
Like I said, find me a Muslim who worships Jesus as God incarnate and
you will have shown me a Muslim who worships the same god as most christians.

So you believe that in order to be considered a "Christian", one MUST believe that Jesus WAS God? That's an interesting take, and by no means a unique one. I can't fault you for it - it's YOUR creed, not mine, and you have to interpret it in some way that makes sense to YOU. What I think in the matter is really inconsequential to your own beliefs, and in all honesty I like it that way.

I refuse to call myself a "Christian" for probably entirely different reasons, but the net result is the same. We can both agree that I'm not any sort of Christian.

I was baptized a long time ago as a "Baptist", but I'm not one of them, either - I think Baptists are just people who believe that if you hold someone's head under water long enough, they'll come around to your way of thinking.

................

OpinionatedB
It's not our fault some people refuse to listen to Jesus on the matter

................

Christians would say the same thing about you and your interpretation of their bible.

Oh, trust me - they HAVE, sometimes with a great deal of rancor! The most interesting thing I find about that is their degree of rancor is generally in direct proportion to their inability to assail my logic in the matter. Those who can construct a decent rebuttal usually do so calmly, and those who can't usually do so violently.

Personally, and from a psychological standpoint, I believe that reaction comes from their having to question their own beliefs internally, and not being able to find the answers they seek there. In layman's terms, I think it comes from me hitting a nerve that they can't soothe. That tends to produce strong, and not very calm, reactions in people.

We ALL need that from time to time, just to keep us on our toes, and sharp enough to provide answers for what we believe. It's not enough to know WHAT you believe, you have to know WHY you believe it as well.

Oddly enough, that thought will likely factor into my response to Chiram later.

nenothtu
So you believe that in order to be considered a "Christian", one MUST believe that Jesus WAS God?

No. I don't know how you jumped to that. I just said that the vast majority of Christians believe it to be. So if you find a Muslim who worships Jesus as God, then you'll find a Muslim who worships the same God that the vast majority of Christians worship. But if the Muslim worships Jesus as God ... then I'd think that Muslim isn't really Muslim anyways.

oops

reply to post by SisyphusRide


You do realise that killing a person is the worst sin of all in Gods eyes anyway God is all that is basically big ball of energy. We use this universal energy every day to live. In my eyes God is not a person but intelligent being of love and light. We were put on this earth as punishment for our sins and that's why this is Hell on earth. Just look around you people are killing people and evil is winning because we are in HELL!! but what do I know I'm just a being of light housed in a non-perfect vessel. The key to happiness is love and honesty if you have those then your a friend of mine. Also meditating will get rid of your negativity as the universal energy is neutral and takes away what you give same way as plants and trees keeps us alive and we keep them alive.

reply to post by FlyersFan


All I am trying to point out, is that Muslims have VERY good reason to believe what they do concerning God and Jesus, ALL backed up in the Bible, in the words of Jesus, alongside His actions and none of it requires mental gymnastics to understand.

So yes, when you take Jesus as a god, then yes, we do have different God's. But like it or not, the God of Abraham is the God of the Muslims who follow Islam correctly.

The reason I say "correctly", is just like Jesus said about some of the Jews being children of satan, I believe some of every religion and non-religion is children of the same.... wahabbi's come to mind right away in Islam.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

You are free to think that you are reading the bible 'correctly'.
Christians would say the exact opposite and have good reason to.

Whatever.

The POINT is that most Christians worship Jesus as God incarnate. Muslims do not.
Therefore they do not worship the same God.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Then the Christians who do not worship Jesus as a god don't worship your god either.

nenothtu:
So you believe that in order to be considered a "Christian", one MUST believe that Jesus WAS God?

FlyersFan: No. I don't know how you jumped to that. I just said that the vast majority of Christians believe it to be.

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought that was the main event - that Christians have to believe Jesus was "God" incarnate. I don't believe that (I do believe that the Holy Spirit resides within us all, however, but I don't see a "triune" God) - nor do I believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection, nor that Christ came to "redeem us" and had die for us to be "saved" - but seeing as how I value the teachings of Jesus, does that then mean I am "allowed" to say I'm a Christian?





Which Christians don't believe Jesus was God incarnate?

wildtimes

nenothtu:
So you believe that in order to be considered a "Christian", one MUST believe that Jesus WAS God?

FlyersFan: No. I don't know how you jumped to that. I just said that the vast majority of Christians believe it to be.

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought that was the main event - that Christians have to believe Jesus was "God" incarnate. I don't believe that (I do believe that the Holy Spirit resides within us all, however, but I don't see a "triune" God) - nor do I believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection, nor that Christ came to "redeem us" and had die for us to be "saved" - but seeing as how I value the teachings of Jesus, does that then mean I am "allowed" to say I'm a Christian?

edit on 12/20/13 by wildtimes because: Ba!! formatting

Which Christians don't believe Jesus was God incarnate?

edit on 12/20/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Interesting quandary, isn't it? Which is more lauded, belief in Jesus' divinity, or adhering to his philosophies? Which is placed higher on the scale of Christian practices? Which leads me to ask another question: did divinity lead to philosophy, or philosophy to divinity?

AfterInfinity

Interesting quandary, isn't it? Which is more lauded, belief in Jesus' divinity, or adhering to his philosophies? Which is placed higher on the scale of Christian practices? Which leads me to ask another question: did divinity lead to philosophy, or philosophy to divinity?

The only "Christian Practice" there is, is respecting and observing the 10 commandments, recognising the Christ as the Messiah.

It's really quite simple. His 'philosophies' only reinforce the concepts found in the 10C.