A Message from The Qur'an

reply to post by nenothtu

The error that makes the presumed gap appear wider than it really is is the assumption that all humans are the "God's Children" referred to in the Bible.

They aren't. The Bible itself makes that pretty clear.

Even in the New Testament.

I think the above is debatable. We are ALL his creation. We are ALL born into "sin".

It does hint and give ideas regarding children/father but never really clear as one verse will contradict another. Leaves the reader confused as to which is the accurate verse and who are God's "children".

Maybe it's with each choice who your father is , or who accepts Christ ( per the Christian perception). Baptists believe baptism is the only way to be "saved".

Maybe it's the way your spirit aligns with that of Christs. That's my conclusion anyway.

nenothtu

TheWrightWing

AfterInfinity
We are animals. We share the same biology and instincts and needs.

We are far more than animals.

Let me know when you discover any historical record kept by dolphins, or when polar bears land on Mars.

On topic:

Message from Islam? Allah hates unbelievers. Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38

Message from Christianity? God loves all his children.

The same "God"? Hardly.

The error that makes the presumed gap appear wider than it really is is the assumption that all humans are the "God's Children" referred to in the Bible.

They aren't. The Bible itself makes that pretty clear.

Even in the New Testament.

All human beings are members of ONE family. We are all children of God.

"I … will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters,” saithe the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:18)

We are ALL children of God, but due to evil inclinations in some, we have the capacity to become “children of the wicked one.” I assume this what you meant?

reply to post by chiram


Now let's see the REST of the verse.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

There's conditions to that particular line. Context does amazing things, I tell ya.

FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

So you just spew more threat of hellfire crap in answer? Typical cult behavior.
Address the issue if you are capable ... that the Qu'ran is complete and total fabrication.

- The qu'ran is a complete fabrication. Total fiction.
- All that threat of hellfire for those who don't believe in the Muslim 'allah' ....
Typical religious cult guilt-nonsense.

where was any threat for hell in my reply?

You say Qur'an is fabricated, how about we look at Gospels who are completely based on a background of OT that you refuse to acknowledge in another thread and Jesus pbuh even conciously fulfilled prophecies in it, eg. Riding the donkey etc
so how about using the same yardstick and calling gospels as fabrications?

Jesus pbuh is called the lamb, where does the idea of sacrificing a lamb for sin/s come from? OT

you say judaism is wrong yet Jesus pbuh was a jew.
Its kind of ridiculous to believe that Jesus pbuh was a christian who worshipped himself

the message of Qur'an is simple, pure monotheism.

Otherwise hindus are no different in believing that God incarnates in human form.

What part of the op you have a problem with? Pure monotheism?

To repeat for clarity, the most important Message from the Quran, as far as Infidels are concerned is this:

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Full context: Quran (48:29)

Is it possible that we have mis-interpreted this significant characterisation of Islam, somehow?

Do tell.

reply to post by logical7

how else do people with that mentality expect to know the truth and right path?

Introspection.
Look it up.

Should they get visited by angels personally?

Unnecessary.

Or maybe God should talk directly to them?

Also unnecessary. Human beings are born with social instincts of cooperation and altruism. Educate yourself.

Or do they think that they are self sufficient to arrive at the truth without the help from God?

Yep!!

They are. It's common sense.
If we are to all survive, then we need to let old, moldy images of a tyrant "God" fall away, as they should do.

Evolutionary Psychology, Neuroscience, Sociology, and Anthropology all point to naturally occurring means for "social cohesion." God is not required.

Whether you like it or not.

reply to post by wildtimes


The point is that truth is truth irrespective of anyone liking it or not.

So you think you are now self sufficient to know the truth about the unseen and as i remember a while back you admitted that you cannot be ever sure that you know the truth.

God is not required as there is naturally occuring altruism?

who made it that way? Evolution? what happened to survival of the fittest?

well how about you separate your views about this life and the unseen?
You believe that God is not required to live a good life, fine. You are free to believe that but why you assume that its the whole picture?

A student can spend his 2 hrs exam time scribbling non sense on the answer paper but he would be really odd if he believes that everyone will pass so he is free to waste time rather than thinking the right answers.

logical7
where was any threat for hell in my reply?

The proselytizing crap from your opening post -

"5. Has not the news reached you of those who disbelieved aforetime? And so they tasted the evil result of their disbelief, and theirs will be a painful torment."

And then you reinforced your hellfire proselytizing in the next post by stating that your fabricated 'god' knows right from wrong etc etc

logical7
You say Qur'an is fabricated,

It IS fabricated. IS. Made up fantasy.

how about we look at Gospels who are completely based on a background of OT

1 - That's NOT the topic of the thread - your proselytizing hellfire Qu'ran quote was.
2 - The gospels are able to stand on their own without the Old Testament.
3 - The gospels were written around the time of Jesus life/death, by those who knew him or by those who studied under the apostles. The Qu'ran was fabricated 600+ years later by a liar of a madman who MADE UP STORIES.

you say judaism is wrong yet Jesus pbuh was a jew.

I say it's fulfilled and obsolete.

Its kind of ridiculous to believe that Jesus pbuh was a christian who worshipped himself

It's kind of ridiculous to believe that a mass murdering liar (muhammad) would be visited by an angel with the only truth from Heaven. It's kind of ridiculous to believe the fabrications he invented about Jesus 600+ years after Jesus died. It's kind of ridiculous to believe Muhammads self serving 'visions' ... even his child-bride seemed to not buy into them.

the message of Qur'an is simple, pure monotheism.

Funny guy. No, the message of the Qu'ran is ... 'buy into Muhammads fabrication and don't think about it too deeply or else you will be killed and then suffer hellfire for it.

Otherwise hindus are no different in believing that God incarnates in human form.

Christian = ONE GOD, three aspect manifestations of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Hindus = very different.

What part of the op you have a problem with? Pure monotheism?

Don't play stupid. The opening post isn't about 'pure monotheism'. It's proselytizing a fabrication with the threat of hellfire if you don't buy into the bunk.


SIDE NOTE - INTREPID HINTED AT NEW, MORE ENFORCED RULES, FOR THIS FORUM.
I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO IT. NO MORE PROSELYTIZING - I HOPE.

logical7
The point is that truth is truth irrespective of anyone liking it or not.

And the truth is that opening post quote of yours was nothing more than you proselytizing a hellfire threat made by a murdering thief and liar from 1400 years ago. That's the truth - like it or not.

reply to post by logical7

Its not about going to hell for not believing, its about "why" not believing in God or the next stage of "why" not believing in messengers of God.

*cracks knuckles*
*stretches*

Okay, I got this one.

Your OP was all about hell being the fate of those who disregard the things written down that Muhammed "said" .....

(READ: did not write down himself = suspect to begin with. Just like Obama's 'sign language interpreter' didn't actually 'communicate' what Obama said. It's in the news. Look it up. A perfect example!!! )

.....out of his own human mouth, decaying gums and all...(

From the opening post .... More 'hellfire for those who don't buy Islam'

10. But those who disbelieved (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic
Monotheism) and denied Our
Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses,
lessons, signs, revelations, etc.),
they will be the dwellers of the
Fire, to dwell therein forever. And worst indeed is that
destination.

So ... people who don't buy into the Islamic fabrication are supposedly going to hell.

Hey logical ... it says 'SIGNS' ... guess what?? Muhammad had NO SIGNS. He gave no proof of his alleged visions. None. No healings .. no raising people from the dead .. no feeding thousands with just a fish and some bread ... no blind gaining eyesight ... no deaf hearing ... no calming the seas .... nothing. He just made claims ...and his statements contradicted the gospels and ancient Jewish scripts. But for pointing out the obvious flaw and failure in this ... a person gets sent to Hell? Really? Dare to tell the truth that there are no signs except negative ones (muhammad contradicting accepted testimony in scripture) and you go to hell.

Yeah .... okay.

reply to post by TheWrightWing



Wow. You should really read the bible more. You seem as if you don't even know whats in it. Its worthless arguing with people who don't even know their own Holy Books yet want to criticize mine. Heck, your very own actions scream that you believe that verse should be followed by every Christian, yet want to criticize it because its in the Qur'an.

FlyersFan

The Christians have ONE God who manifests in three aspects ... Father, Son, HolySpirit.

Some of them believe that doctrine. Not all.

The Muslims do not.

Muslims have one God, who doesn't muddy the waters by dividing himself into three.

Christians worship Jesus as God Incarnate. Muslims do not. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again, some of them do. Those who do go against Jesus' own direct teaching, but hey, if they can throw out other biblical teachings at random and on a whim, why not that one too? They do it so that they can throw away Jesus' God, the One he preached, and make up their own as they go along. Much easier to do if one simply ignores this teaching or that one.

Which is why I find it funny as hell when such people say that Mohammed's God was "made up", and ignore the fact that theirs was.

See? I TOLD y'all there are pretty entertaining Christians out there!

Akragon

OpinionatedB
reply to post by nenothtu

 

lol... I thought Jesus spoke in parables to make it easy for people to understand, more relate-able for the average person...

I didn't know they were supposed to be hard to understand! Where does He say His style of speech was to make it difficult? I am just curious I simply never heard such a thing..

edit on 18-12-2013 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

nope...

he spoke in parables so only certain people would understand...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For the benefit of those who want to check it out for themselves, that is Matthew 13:10-14.

MamaJ
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The error that makes the presumed gap appear wider than it really is is the assumption that all humans are the "God's Children" referred to in the Bible.

They aren't. The Bible itself makes that pretty clear.

Even in the New Testament.

I think the above is debatable. We are ALL his creation. We are ALL born into "sin".

Everything I say is debatable - that's why I say it!

We ARE all his creation - but so is Satan when you get right down to brass tacks. That doesn't make Satan "good", nor does it make all people "God's Children", any more than it makes Satan God's child.

It does hint and give ideas regarding children/father but never really clear as one verse will contradict another. Leaves the reader confused as to which is the accurate verse and who are God's "children".

That depends on how deeply one digs, and how willing he is to allow other verses to illuminate those that are in apparent contradiction.

Maybe it's with each choice who your father is , or who accepts Christ ( per the Christian perception). Baptists believe baptism is the only way to be "saved".

Baptists are fools, then. Baptism is an ordinance, "the answer of a clear conscience to God". it's NOT an automatic get-in-to Heaven-free card, nor is it a requirement. I was baptized many years ago by some "independent Baptists" - i.e. not followers of the Southern Baptist Conference, or really ANY Baptist conference. They made it clear what Baptism was, and that it wasn't an automatic ticket to heaven, nor a requirement to get there. However, as I said, they were "Independent" Baptists, and that might have been all the difference in the world in what they believe, right there.

Maybe it's the way your spirit aligns with that of Christs. That's my conclusion anyway.

That's it. that's EXACTLY it.

Sometimes, however, what is not said is just as important as what IS said.

reply to post by logical7

The point is that truth is truth irrespective of anyone liking it or not.

Yep.
That's the point.

chiram

All human beings are members of ONE family. We are all children of God.

"I … will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters,” saithe the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:18)

A very pretty sentiment, but I don't happen to believe it - the Bible itself specifies that much, and it specifies it in the very verses surrounding the ONE you quote here, out of context. What is of paramount importance there is just WHO is being referred to as "you" and "ye". Since you did source it to book chapter and verse, I'll leave it to those who want to know who that is to seek it and find it on their own.

We are ALL children of God, but due to evil inclinations in some, we have the capacity to become “children of the wicked one.” I assume this what you meant?

Not at all. That's not what I believe. I don't believe there are evil inclinations in "some", I believe there are evil inclinations in ALL.

I believe we have the capacity to become what we were created for, each individually, before the foundation of the world. We were all "created from the same clay", but different ones were created for different purposes, different destinies.

reply to post by nenothtu


Chiram: All human beings are members of ONE family. We are all children of God.

Nenothtu: A very pretty sentiment, but I don't happen to believe it - the Bible itself specifies that much, and it specifies it in the very verses surrounding the ONE you quote here, out of context.

C: Not at all, I do not believe the verses are out of context. In the first place, we are all ‘sons of God’ or ‘children of God’ same thing.

I… will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughter saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:18)

C: Such interpretations mean that in the universal sense God is the Father of all. Of course on an individual level we are given choices/conditions that to become TRUE children of god, we should not look for Him inside man made places (Temples or Idols) but within ourselves. The difference lies between what is termed the ‘children of God’ and the ‘TRUE children of God.'

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:6)

C: We are ALL children of God, but due to evil inclinations in some, we have the capacity to become “children of the wicked one.” I assume this what you meant?

Nenothtu: That's not what I believe. I don't believe there are evil inclinations in "some", I believe there are evil inclinations in ALL.

C: Yes that’s correct, there is the capacity for evil inclinations in ALL, didn’t explain that too well. We all have the ability to lean towards evil tendencies, as well as to lean towards good tendencies. Evil lies in the veil of duality of one’s own mind, where duality implies both good and bad. The one can’t exist without the other.

reply to post by chiram


Jesus clearly explained the matter, and He was not in agreement with your interpretation.



John 8:39-44

New King James Version (NKJV)

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

reply to post by Akragon


Thank you for showing those verses for me. That was very kind of you.