A Message from The Qur'an

wildtimes

And PS: Take your heavy metal and the Christians with you, eh?

HEY!

Without heavy metal or Christians around, what am I supposed to do for entertainment?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I'm not sure why we should consider your god the one and only when he's not even the first. Given how long you have existed on this earth, I'd say you should probably cover your bases and go all the way back to the very beginning of theism according to all cultural mythologies and all historical records across all nations in the history of the world.

Do you mean The Fat Chick that all the Europeans were making statues of 30,000 years ago?

wildtimes
Hey, isn't our host, the OP, going to join the discussion?
He was the one who called this meeting.

that's alright, it was over by the second post...

see I think we can find a common ground you and me to fight injustice?

I'll be Batman and you can be little Miss Wonder!

you in?

OpinionatedB
This is why someone cannot simply read the Qur'an and decide they understand what it means.

If I tell you someone tried to kill my neighbor this morning, it would sound as if this person is a horrendous human being who needs locked up.

But if the historical context was that someone tried to kill my neighbor because he murdered this man's wife and was about to kill him next, but this person fought valiantly against my neighbor's attack and prevented his own death... then that seriously changes your perspective.

The Quran is not a difficult book, it is plainly worded, and to suggest that "God" would make his last message to his creation difficult to comprehend, sounds like blasphemy to me.

Don't you agree?

Context, do you mean like the condition "Until"?

And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah

Full context: Quran (8:39) The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Full context: Quran (9:29) According to this verse, "People of the Book" (Jews, Christians) are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status.

So until all submit to Islam, there will be jihad. Is there another way to "interpret" these plain conditions?

When did those conditions expire? Please, point out the verse.

Is there a "context" or "interpretation" for this?

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Full context: Quran (48:29)

What else could that particular Message from the Quran possibly mean?

TheWrightWing

AfterInfinity
We are animals. We share the same biology and instincts and needs.

We are far more than animals.

Let me know when you discover any historical record kept by dolphins, or when polar bears land on Mars.

On topic:

Message from Islam? Allah hates unbelievers. Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38

Message from Christianity? God loves all his children.

The same "God"? Hardly.

The error that makes the presumed gap appear wider than it really is is the assumption that all humans are the "God's Children" referred to in the Bible.

They aren't. The Bible itself makes that pretty clear.

Even in the New Testament.

FlyersFan

MamaJ
I still wonder where is Abraham's karma? Did it pass on to his seed with Hagar?

I still wonder - did Abraham ever really exist?
If not ... Christianity could survive, but Islam and Judaism would be mortally wounded.

Christianity could only survive that case if it is chasing after a different god than the one the Bible (both OT and NT) specifies.

TheWrightWing

The Quran is not a difficult book, it is plainly worded, and to suggest that "God" would make his last message to his creation difficult to comprehend, sounds like blasphemy to me.

Don't you agree?

No more so than to say that Jesus spoke in parables to obscure the meanings from those not intended to embrace them.

As I recall, he even mentioned that himself.

SisyphusRide
5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..”


...preferably with a pocket knife



Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)


infidelsarecool.com...

UK will pay... your 911 is on it's way!

news.nationalpost.com...

edit on 16-12-2013 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)

you only prove that you used up all you ammunition to bash Islam right in the 2nd post, from out of context wishfully translated texts to videos like the 3rd jihad.. Rather than just discussing a very simple and universal message in the op.

So I again Invite you to point what exactly you disagree in the OP.

FlyersFan

logical7
discuss..

Okay. My two comments -
- The qu'ran is a complete fabrication. Total fiction.
- All that threat of hellfire for those who don't believe in the Muslim 'allah' ....
Typical religious cult guilt-nonsense.

edit on 12/16/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Surah Furqan

1. Blessed be He Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong,
i.e. this Qur'an) to His slave (Muhammad ) that he may be a warner to the 'Alamin
(mankind and jinns).

2. He to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and
the earth, and Who has begotten
no son (children or offspring)
and for Whom there is no
partner in the dominion. He has
created everything, and has measured it exactly according to
its due measurements.

3. Yet they have taken besides Him other aliha (gods) that
created nothing but are
themselves created, and possess
neither hurt nor benefit for
themselves, and possess no
power (of causing) death, nor (of giving) life, nor of raising the
dead.

4. Those who disbelieve say: "This (the Qur'an) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad ) has invented, and others have
helped him at it, so that they
have produced an unjust wrong
(thing) and a lie."

5. And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has written
down, and they are dictated to
him morning and afternoon."

6. Say: "It (this Qur'an) has been sent down by Him (Allah) (the
Real Lord of the heavens and
earth) Who knows the secret of
the heavens and the earth. Truly,
He is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful."

do you someone about whom the Qur'an seems to be talking of..?

TheWrightWing
reply to post by logical7

 

"And whosoever believes in Allah and performs righteous good deeds,"

And what exactly are these "deeds"?

The new covenant makes clear: Respect the 10 Commandments and recognise the Messiah: Christ.

It is a tradition of cult leaders to declare that "God" says to obey them and fulfill their whims, who issue convenient "decrees" from God affirming the "prophets" desires must be satisfied.

Just ask Aisha : "Truly Allah seems to be very quick in fulfilling your prayers."

to know what the deeds are just read Qur'an.

To answer the other point, Tell me if God wants to communicate with humans how else He should if not by appointing a prophet and asking people to listen to and obey him?

If you are a christian and have a "hindu"istic belief that God came in human form(avatar/incarnation) to communicate then its a different thing altogether.

A parable can be that a king appoints a representative/messenger and so if anyone refuses to acknowledge him it is same as refusing the message of king and disobeying the king.

Not believe that the messenger is from the king and an imposter etc is another matter and so the king sends him with the royal seal/sign.
Similarly God sends messengers with signs and miracles to prove their authenticity and then when someone still rejects then he/she has no justification left to not recieve the consequences.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

"Discuss" what? How we're all going to hell because you posted some ancient, translated rantings from a person who 'claimed' to have been met by an angel in a cave?

Rubbish.

5. Has not the news reached you of those who disbelieved
aforetime? And so they tasted
the evil result of their disbelief,
and theirs will be a painful
torment.

So, someone came back from the place of painful torment with this 'news'?

Which "outlet" was it that spread it?? Some guy holding a saber and leading a camel?

Lots of people thought Hitler was a noble leader as well. We know what happened with that.
Let's discuss how Hitler is similar to Muhammed - wanting to kill everyone who didn't believe what he said.

edit on 12/16/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Its not about going to hell for not believing, its about "why" not believing in God or the next stage of "why" not believing in messengers of God.

It points at the problem in the soul that makes a person disbelieve at different levels.

Do you identify yourself with the part of op, "..will a mere man guide us?.."

how else do people with that mentality expect to know the truth and right path?
Should they get visited by angels personally? Or maybe God should talk directly to them?

Or do they think that they are self sufficient to arrive at the truth without the help from God?


The news of the consequences of ancient people means the worldly consequences. You do know how many great civilizations got destroyed once they moved towards disbelief, injustice and corruption.

Its simple God's law that when people in a civilization starts wronging their own soul and others around them, they naturally get destroyed over time.

So basically when they leave the, "Love God and love the neighbour" idea as a whole(majority)

reply to post by nenothtu


lol... I thought Jesus spoke in parables to make it easy for people to understand, more relate-able for the average person...

I didn't know they were supposed to be hard to understand! Where does He say His style of speech was to make it difficult? I am just curious I simply never heard such a thing..

reply to post by nenothtu


your supposed to be the curmudgeonly Regent of ATS! They don't have Christians and heavy metal in your castle!

lol... do you have a castle?

reply to post by FlyersFan

If it were 'exactly' the same, then it would be exactly the same. But it's not.

through your eyes it might not be,

many will agree with you, probably a majority will


However, I see through my own eyes and the similarities just being used as opposites are too clear in my eyes.

How others see when their view needs to divide in order to feed the fear and hate is their perspective, I give mine, it clashes, with me hoping that unity will overcome without whats need for it to overcome.

But many are stubborn in their beliefs, I know I am extremely.

reply to post by InhaleExhale


Again ... any similarities are because Muhammad PLAGIARIZED from Judaism, Christianity and the Zoroastrians. It's not because Muhammad had 'visions' ... it's because he used the stories he had heard from those sources as a basis for his fiction. However ... that's where the similarities end. The Christians have ONE God who manifests in three aspects ... Father, Son, HolySpirit. The Muslims do not. Christians worship Jesus as God Incarnate. Muslims do not. BIG DIFFERENCE.

reply to post by logical7


So you just spew more threat of hellfire crap in answer? Typical cult behavior.
Address the issue if you are capable ... that the Qu'ran is complete and total fabrication.

- The qu'ran is a complete fabrication. Total fiction.
- All that threat of hellfire for those who don't believe in the Muslim 'allah' ....
Typical religious cult guilt-nonsense.

AfterInfinity
Or maybe it's the NT and OT god who is the liar. That's probably what the Muslims would tell you. And what do you have that they don't? Where's your tie-breaker?

If the 'God' of the NT and OT is a liar, then so is the 'god' of the Qu'ran. BECAUSE ... Muhammad just plagiarized the NT and OT stories and then padded them with his own fabrications to create his so-called 'visions' for the Qu'ran. The base source for the Qu'ran are stories poorly transcribed from the OT and NT ... so if those are corrupt then so is the Qu'ran.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by nenothtu

 

lol... I thought Jesus spoke in parables to make it easy for people to understand, more relate-able for the average person...

I didn't know they were supposed to be hard to understand! Where does He say His style of speech was to make it difficult? I am just curious I simply never heard such a thing..

edit on 18-12-2013 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

nope...

he spoke in parables so only certain people would understand...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

reply to post by OpinionatedB


I'll get back to you on that later - not enough time right this minute. Maybe after work this evening.

ETA: Nevermind - Akragon already did it, but forgot to source it with chapter and verse so yo can look it up yourself for confirmation. I'll do THAT when I get home - unless it gets done by someone else while I'm at work.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by nenothtu

 

your supposed to be the curmudgeonly Regent of ATS!

They don't have Christians and heavy metal in your castle!

lol... do you have a castle?

Yes, I have a castle. No, Christians are not banned from it - nor are Muslims, Hundus, Buddhists, etc. It's just that alleged Christians are the funniest of the lot. The rest of y'all are too damned serious!

Yes, there is heavy metal, and lots of it. Mostly when you ain't at home! Also, headphones HAVE been deployed at times when you ARE at home... just so's ya know...