What will you say/do, if you are wrong about Jesus

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

So how many ''humans'' do you see that are raised from the dead.........

Well, humans are raised from the dead all the time. People have been "brought back to life" after being clinically dead for signifigant amounts of time.

Jesus Christ Fullfilled the Old Testament.........there is much proof of this.......

Actually, there is no proof to this. Unless you consider the Bible as proof, that's about it.

All throughout the Old Testament there is prophecy and prophets whom speak of a Saviour...................

And death, famine, destruction. The Old Testament is full of killing and retribution. Kind of odd that an all loving God would be so eager to deal out death and destruction to his "sons and daughters." Don't you think if there was a God that cared, he would stop his word from being further manipulated and save many people a grizzly death at the hands of religious fanatics?

Have you even stopped to consider the horrors "religious" leaders have forced upon people throughout history? Namely christians and catholics.

To worship a God the Old Testament describes is to sin against humanity.

[Edited on 24-5-2003 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

And for that matter, there is no proof of our existence at the A.T.S.forum apart from our hours spent on here posting threads!!!
Do we exist???
Do i exist???
Did Hitler exist???
Did Stalin exist???
or for that matter, does the world exist???
Are we non existent!!!
Where is the PROOF............

oK.........raised from the dead ........who after 3 days,locked in a cave.........blocking the entrance with a large rock.....having guards sit all night and day out side........waiting for someone to come and steal the body...........if they slept or did not obey.........they would have been killed...............so where did the body go???
I have not heard of another exact incident that fits this scenario.........
Christianity is not about ''man power'' it is not even called...........a religion............it is a way of life........it is part of our existence..........
eg........man's law must be obeyed..........break that law .......and there are consequences to face up to.......

That is the same with God's law............although, the punishment of disobedience at the garden of Eden was to be cut off from God, We have a free will to chose our future punishment............unlike the punishment of ''''Man's law'''.............there is no sorry, i wont do it again,
or one more chance,
or ill be good the next time........man's law is dealt with punishment according to the offence...........
God's punishment is ..............one that is fair .........confess your sin.........and you will be forgiven....confess with sincerity.......and all will be wiped clean..............
Is it so hard to follow the law of God???.............
It is easy to hate.........or to condemn......or to do bad....
But to love ..............truly love someone more then you love yourself, is a sacrifice one must make .......to love the other and feel their pain is much greater then to hate......hate is easy........to truly hate a person(anger, loath, to dislike ,seek vengeace...........is easy......too easy.......
Love ,even those that hate you..........brings out harmony,Humility......brings out the goodness in all .......

Helen, you should get the full stop key on your keyboard fixed. I think its sticking when ever you use it.

One full stop is enough. Maybe deleate a few.

Originally posted by Maddas
Helen, you should get the full stop key on your keyboard fixed. I think its sticking when ever you use it.

One full stop is enough. Maybe deleate a few.

What's a full stop.................................................................................................................................................. ............................................

oh........sorry...................
ok.........
lol.....
im sorry * there* no full stops*
I have yet to discover the full function of my key board.
Thank you***************

maddas.........i hope you know that i was not being smart.

I was trying to be funny.

Is that better?

one full stop.
and one question mark!!!

And for that matter, there is no proof of our existence at the A.T.S.forum apart from our hours spent on here posting threads!!!

What does this have to do with anything? Are we all macros sending these messages to one another?

Do we exist???
Do i exist???
Did Hitler exist???
Did Stalin exist???
or for that matter, does the world exist???
Are we non existent!!!
Where is the PROOF............

Have you ever heard the phrase "I think therefore I am."

Hitler and Stalin's existance was painfully real for those caught in their destructive wake.

You may have problems believing you exist, but many of us don't. If being alive isn't proof enough for your own existance, then I am afraid you have some deeper problems to consider.

oK.........raised from the dead ........who after 3 days,locked in a cave.........blocking the entrance with a large rock.....having guards sit all night and day out side........waiting for someone to come and steal the body...........if they slept or did not obey.........they would have been killed...............so where did the body go???
I have not heard of another exact incident that fits this scenario.........

Where's your proof of this? Like I said, the bible is about all you are able to claim as proof.

Christianity is not about ''man power'' it is not even called...........a religion............it is a way of life........it is part of our existence..........
eg........man's law must be obeyed..........break that law .......and there are consequences to face up to.......

Christianity is a religion no matter how you slice it. Just the fact that those who worship claim it to be a way of life is like telling everyone that, I'm right, you're wrong.

That is the same with God's law............although, the punishment of disobedience at the garden of Eden was to be cut off from God, We have a free will to chose our future punishment............unlike the punishment of ''''Man's law'''.............there is no sorry, i wont do it again,
or one more chance,
or ill be good the next time........man's law is dealt with punishment according to the offence...........
God's punishment is ..............one that is fair .........confess your sin.........and you will be forgiven....confess with sincerity.......and all will be wiped clean..............
Is it so hard to follow the law of God???.............
It is easy to hate.........or to condemn......or to do bad....
But to love ..............truly love someone more then you love yourself, is a sacrifice one must make .......to love the other and feel their pain is much greater then to hate......hate is easy........to truly hate a person(anger, loath, to dislike ,seek vengeace...........is easy......too easy.......
Love ,even those that hate you..........brings out harmony,Humility......brings out the goodness in all .......

I am sure you don't have to describe how God punishes people who disobey his laws. Even those that don't meet brutal endings because of God.

I say again, if you want the all time provider of hate, death, false promises and exaggerated claims, christianity is the way to go, no contest.

Other religions do have prophets/teachers who raise the dead and who appeared to their disciples after their deaths. Buddhism is full of these stories.

And as for Jesus "fulfilling the Messianic prophecies", this is not true. He did NOT fulfill the Messianic prophecies in the Torah -- if he had, the Jews themselves would have accepted him.

*AFTER* his death, Christians went hunting through the Torah to find verses that proved Jesus was really the Messiah. These are the ones he "fulfills."

But, heck, using those rules, you could find prophecies after the fact that proved ME to be the Messiah.

Well, Helen is what one would call "fanatic". In other words, she right, you going to hell for not believing me.

People, there have been this type before, they are dead set against listening to facts and dead set on spouting edited scriputers.(sp?)

And a good arguement, what proof besides the bible is there of all this? Never seen proof of Jesus rising from the dead, or that he healed, or walked on water. No proof but a book with zombies, giants, aliens, so forth.

Originally posted by helen:
But if im right.............then Your Wrong............For there can only be one right.......and not two,or three or four........

So, let me get this straight helen: there is one path, one "right" for everything? If you come to a fork in the road, with an arrow pointing down one path that says: "Denver, 610 miles"; and the other saying: "Denver, 610 miles"; and they both lead to Denver, are those not two paths, two "rights"? I'm sorry, but you are wrong. There is always more than one choice, one path, and one right. To believe otherwise is ignorant, and to refuse the consideration of such is stupidity.

And what exactly is the point in proving "I'm right, and you're wrong"? What do you gain, aside from more enemies? It has been said that if you convince an atheist that god (by "god", I do not mean "Jehovah, Lord God, Father of Jesus", I mean "god" as in whatever it is one chooses to worship) truly exists, he will ultimately hate you. This is true.

Also, harrassing someone as many posters here have done is NOT the way to prove a point, and in fact there really is no point to this discussion, anyway - other than trying to get someone riled up and some feathers ruffled. That is true stupidity.

It is no one's place to say "I am right, you are wrong", especially when there is no hard, un-disprovable evidence to something. Especially when it comes to religion. Telling someone that their religious beliefs are wrong is akin to telling someone that their house should be seized, and their family shot in a public execution. It is nobody's place to tell a person this, and I am sick of Uber-Christians like yourself keeping an ignorant, one-track mind about things, and choosing a religion that functions only because fear is a primary factor in it - then pushing it on everybody else.

If you believe in Christianity, fine. Believe in it. Don't shove it down the throats of others - if they choose to believe in it, that is their right, as is NOT following it. You have no right to shove YOUR religion down someone's throat, if they choose not to believe in it.

Now, if I AM wrong about Jesus, I suppose I will "burn in a lake of fire", as I am probably entitled to such for not loving "Our Lord God". However, helen, you asked for our thoughts on this topic, and we supplied them to you. We did not particularly enjoy being told that what we think is wrong, especially by someone who may be wrong herself.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Byrd
Other religions do have prophets/teachers who raise the dead and who appeared to their disciples after their deaths. Buddhism is full of these stories.

And as for Jesus "fulfilling the Messianic prophecies", this is not true. He did NOT fulfill the Messianic prophecies in the Torah -- if he had, the Jews themselves would have accepted him.

*AFTER* his death, Christians went hunting through the Torah to find verses that proved Jesus was really the Messiah. These are the ones he "fulfills."

But, heck, using those rules, you could find prophecies after the fact that proved ME to be the Messiah.

other religions of proof....of raising the dead......yes , but are they fullfillement of what prophecy has said?
What do you mean went 'hunting''???
The Apostles doubted like any other human would have, but they accepted Him(Jesus) as the Saviour........As for the Jews.......it was also prophesied that many wont believe and when another comes in His (Jesus) name, him they will accept..........that one prophecy has not yet happened..........
And not all Jews have the same mind..........some do believe and some have doubt today, and some Christians have doubts today..........does that make it a lie..........no, all it means is that the prophecy of many not accepting Jesus as the Saviour has come true........even today .........even to those so called Christians who re write the Scriptures to suit themselves for whatever reason it may be...........

As for prophecy about quote///......But, heck, using those rules, you could find prophecies after the fact that proved ME to be the Messiah.

I dont think so......that has been said many times by many people........it means nothing...........it proves nothing........
Prophecy Has to be fullfilled 100% and Jesus Christ has fullfilled the prophecy of the Old Testament......
Go to your library and read all the early books from the early century.............some were passed down orally..as said in the New Testament......some will say that they did as they pleased..........Yes, lets say they did..........Now, for what reason may I ask???
They are not asking you for money!
They are not seeking your soul!
They are not putting you through torture, to accept Christ.............
It is you Free will to accept or not to accept..........it is your choice..............
I have not met a Christian who forces you to become a Christian........that is not a true Christian.......It is a matter of ''YOURSELF'' wanting to find the truth........and asking questions........real questions and getting honest answers........it is a choice you have now........
Like when the early Christians had a choice of following Jesus Christ........or being put to their death......using many forms of severe punishment ,tortures to worship Idols or another God ..........they chose Death......because death is only a bodily death........and with death......Jesus Christ conquered death.......

Prophecy sais that the time will once again be that........accept the god of this earth, the Antichrist , or accept the true God.........
Yes many have come in Jesus Christ's name, claiming to be Christ..........but not the whole world know of them......
When that one person cl;aims to be God, and comes with his false prophet, the whole world will hear of it.......the whole world will say........Where has this man come from.....where has he been?
Like Christ had a forerunner, St John the Babtist.......so will the Antichrist......he will have a false prophet welcome him to the world.......as the one that truly is God........to establish a World Worship of him........The prophets of the Old Testament..Elijah and Enoch will also be around to accuse the Antichrist of being Fake.....and the whole world will know.........not one or two or three people, but the whole world........when that time comes, no one knows.........but the signs of the times are here ........

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by helen670
So how many ''humans'' do you see that are raised from the dead.........
Jesus Christ Fullfilled the Old Testament.........there is much proof of this.......
Muhammed , although spoke of God.....where does one look for him concerning him to be a prophet and the last of the prophets.........

Look Illmatic........if im wrong about Jesus Christ........then yes ''Islam '' is close to Worshipping God.............
But if im right.............then Your Wrong............For there can only be one right.......and not two,or three or four........

Yes prophecy is definately important.......how else did the birth of Jesus Christ get fullfilled........it was written in Genesis...............
All throughout the Old Testament there is prophecy and prophets whom speak of a Saviour...................


[Edited on 5/24/2003 by helen670]

I already challenged you to try to find someone else who might have been the last Prophet of God, since your so correct when you say it wasnt Muhammad.

There's many verses in the OT that refer to a Savior? Funny, last time I checked there were verses that didnt.

I, Even I, am Yahweh, and beside me there is NO Savior. Isaiah 43:11

How is Islam "close" to worshipping God. Helen, you have no clue what your talking about. That's why the name itself Islam means submission to God. That's why 5 times a day Muslims bow down in worshipping God..

Illmatic that verse.......quote//I, Even I, am Yahweh, and beside me there is NO Savior. Isaiah 43:11

Originally posted by helen670
Illmatic that verse.......quote//I, Even I, am Yahweh, and beside me there is NO Savior. Isaiah 43:11

Exactly that is in the old testement. Now jesus said that the god named "Yahweh" wasb't the true God. There goes a condraction right there.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by helen670
So how many ''humans'' do you see that are raised from the dead.........
Jesus Christ Fullfilled the Old Testament.........there is much proof of this.......
Muhammed , although spoke of God.....where does one look for him concerning him to be a prophet and the last of the prophets.........

Look Illmatic........if im wrong about Jesus Christ........then yes ''Islam '' is close to Worshipping God.............
But if im right.............then Your Wrong............For there can only be one right.......and not two,or three or four........

Yes prophecy is definately important.......how else did the birth of Jesus Christ get fullfilled........it was written in Genesis...............
All throughout the Old Testament there is prophecy and prophets whom speak of a Saviour...................


[Edited on 5/24/2003 by helen670]

I already challenged you to try to find someone else who might have been the last Prophet of God, since your so correct when you say it wasnt Muhammad.

There's many verses in the OT that refer to a Savior? Funny, last time I checked there were verses that didnt.

I, Even I, am Yahweh, and beside me there is NO Savior. Isaiah 43:11

How is Islam "close" to worshipping God. Helen, you have no clue what your talking about. That's why the name itself Islam means submission to God. That's why 5 times a day Muslims bow down in worshipping God..

Illmatic that verse.......quote//I, Even I, am Yahweh, and beside me there is NO Savior. Isaiah 43:11

That is one line taken out........put the whole verse in......
chapter 43 , verse 10......Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord,and my servant whom I have chosen;
that ye may know and believe Me,
and understand that I am he:before Me there was no God formed,
neither shall there be after Me.
11/I ,even I , am the Lord;and beside Me there is no Saviour.
12/I have declared ,
and have shewed, when there was no strange god among you:therefore ye are My witnesses,
saith the Lord,
that I am God.
13/Yea, before the day was
I am He;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand:
I will work, and who shall let it?
You see Illmatic........you have to read the whole of the chapter to understand.........This is talking of the future Saviour that is to come.......that He will send to us a Saviour.........in the flesh......one God.......
In the New Testament Jesus Christ speaks like that of the Old..........I am He.....
I am.....
That is why He was crucified.......because of the claim of Him being God........and it was written that He was to be crucified........for a lamb was sacrificed in honour of God......the blood was spilt for Sin........but Jesus Christ said......I am the lamb........
He came as a servant .......to be accepted by everyone and to show that He was Humble......to show us that all can be saved, through Him.........

The only answer that she has rec ieved so far is ,"Mohammads revelations are the ame that are in the bible". Are they truly the same, and did Mohammad promise any thing to his followers? Did he promise them eternal life with him, offer them salvation, any thing? What can he do for his people? And I have a question,, I think that some are saying or part of islamic belief is that Jesus was a mere prophet but a sinless, special man...am I correct? To think about that one....I know there was "no not one" who is or was sinless....Jesus was a devine inspiration, the son of God, sent to earth to save the people, Gods son in the flesh...NOT just man for if he were just a man then he had sin but he did not...........................................Believer

I was wondering why when some one like Helen or myself or any other christian expresses thier opinion on a post about thier beliefs and or personal experiences , they are presumed to be forcing thier religion on others and or claiming we're right and thier wrong, when all one is simply doing is voicing an opinion and/or asking a question of one of another religion....sounds like theres not much proof or much BELIEF in ones religion to even want to express it to others in a way or fashion to try to get the opposing person to see or believe what they are trying to say about thioer religion..............huh who I think I lost myself....But you know what I mean..............................................................Believer

well, if im wrong the first thing ill do when im judged is apologise to the lord, then ill reach back and slam my fist into his chin, call him a wanker and then walk straight into hell. thats seriously what i would do, i mean seriously who needs a god that plays head games with you.

[Edited on 25-5-2003 by seedy_sid]

Abstract Alao said:

"Exactly that is in the old testement. Now jesus said that the god named "Yahweh" wasb't the true God. There goes a condraction right there."

Does the NT say this or are you talking about the Gnostic Gospels?


Peace

Originally posted by seedy_sid
well, if im wrong the first thing ill do when im judged is apologise to the lord, then ill reach back and slam my fist into his chin, call him a wanker and then walk straight into hell.

thats seriously what i would do, i mean seriously who needs a god that plays head games with you.

[Edited on 25-5-2003 by seedy_sid]

Now how do you answer something like that???

You DONT!!!

Originally posted by seedy_sid
well, if im wrong the first thing ill do when im judged is apologise to the lord, then ill reach back and slam my fist into his chin, call him a wanker and then walk straight into hell. thats seriously what i would do, i mean seriously who needs a god that plays head games with you.

See, this is the kind of anger and resentment that "God" has spurned. Maybe you should ask why a god of love brings so much hate to himself...

Originally posted by helen670

Originally posted by seedy_sid
well, if im wrong the first thing ill do when im judged is apologise to the lord, then ill reach back and slam my fist into his chin, call him a wanker and then walk straight into hell.

thats seriously what i would do, i mean seriously who needs a god that plays head games with you.

[Edited on 25-5-2003 by seedy_sid]

Now how do you answer something like that???

You DONT!!!

Your right Helen You cant answer something like that, all you can do is pray for someone who would even think of striking the Lord and savior. Thats so rediculous I cant even think of a response but to pray................................................................Believer

Originally posted by MiStErBeLLaTrIx


Living easy, living free Season ticket on a one-way ride Asking nothing, leave me be Taking everything in my stride Don't need reason, don't need rhyme Ain't nothing I would rather do Going down, party time My friends are gonna be there too I'm on the highway to hell No stop signs, speed limit Nobody's gonna slow me down Like a wheel, gonna spin it Nobody's gonna mess me round Hey Satan, payed my dues Playing in a rocking band Hey Momma, look at me I'm on my way to the promised land I'm on the highway to hell (Don't stop me) And I'm going down, all the way down I'm on the highway to hell!!!

Ok ,hope it is what you wished for!!!
And being a one way ticket..........there is no return.......