Noah

reply to post by ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

At least you are honest about your position randy. I can respect that.

I really have no choice in the matter tho do I?

randyvs
Just one thing, I don't see it as a problem. You do.

You have fooled yourself into thinking you don't have a problem.
You've admitted that you are unreasonable and won't accept truth.
That's a problem. To think otherwise is disordered.

randyvs
I really have no choice in the matter tho do I?

Of course you do. The choice ... accept the truth that large parts of the Old Testament are proven to be myth. Or falsely believe that the Old Testament stories are literal truth .. word for word from God Himself ... even though the facts show otherwise.

You haven't addressed the math facts that I posted. Here you go ... once again ... because you seem to have missed it - Todays DNA diversity numbers, as well as the population numbers, prove the world wide flood didn't happen. That's math. Math doesn't lie. For us to have the population we have today, then God would have had to spot zap millions of people back onto the planet after the 'world wide flood'. Newly created people. And that didn't happen .. did it? Nope.

Could Noahs' Ark Have Actually Happened?

If the 2350 date were correct, then human civilization would’ve had to undergo an extreme population explosion in the millenium following the flood. According to Biblical sources, there would have been millions of Jews leaving Egypt, so assuming a global population of 40 million around that time (~1350 BC), and comparing that to global population estimates later in history (an estimated 200+ million by 0 AD), would require an incredibly high population growth between 2350 BC and 1350 BC (5,000,000 fold increase in 1,000 years), and a much lower population growth after 1350 BC – usually less than 5 fold population growth within any 1,000 year period between 1350 BC and 1800 AD.

(4) Genetic evidence shows that human beings are far too genetically diverse to be descended from a single family in 2350 B.C. If Noah’s Ark were true, then all men alive today would’ve gotten their Y-chromosomes from Noah, and all human mitochondrial DNA would come from Noah’s wife and the three daughter-in-laws. Studies of the human Y-Chromosome show that you’d need far more than 4,300 years to accumulate that many mutations. Human beings could not be descended from a single male in 2350 B.C. What the studies show, instead, is that, in order to explain the number of mutations in the human Y-Chromosome, you have to allow for roughly 60,000-90,000 years. Similarly, human mitochondrial DNA requires roughly 160,000 years to accumulate that many mutations — showing that Eve could not have lived 6,000 years ago as the Bible says.

randyvs
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Wait, you say that science isn't credible because it changes its mind on things all the time (happens when new evidence comes to light allowing scientists to update current theories and hypotheses), then say that the bible is more credible because it refuses to change its mind despite OVERWHELMING evidence that contradicts it? That is highly illogical.

Negative! What I do believe and have really said nothing of,
is that one day science will change it's mind enough to have
come full circle and agee with what the Bible said all along.
It's already happened actually in a number of instances I
can't quite recall. (bold added)

Not good enough. If science has come around to support biblical accounts, I want proof and evidence, not your word. Also, keep in mind, that it is entirely likely that some events in the bible actually occurred, albeit without the supernatural element. I do maintain that the bible is a work of historical fiction, so it isn't surprising that some events in the bible actually happened. Just like you can find real events happening in other works of historical fiction. That still doesn't prove that Noah's flood story as depicted in the bible is even close to true. Every time science updates its position on that story, it becomes less and less credible. So I think you will be waiting an awful long time for science to come full circle and substantiate your beliefs.

Here is more math (and engineering) proving that Noah's ark couldn't exist as depicted in the bible:

Noah's Ark is too big to float

So, depending on what you use for a cubit, Ye Arke is about 450 feet long, 75 wide, and 45 tall, right? I work best in etres, so lets do a bit of conversion: that's 137.16 by 22.86 by 13.716 metres, right? For ease of calculation, let's call it 140 x 23 x 14. This give you 45.080e+3 cubic metres. One cubic metre of pure water is one metric tonne. Salt water is a bit more dense. Be nice, add another thousand tonnes or so... Ye Arke displaces 46,000 tonnes. Maybe 46,400 at max. And I'm being generous. (The reader who knows something about ship-building will also spot a certain minor problem with the above figures. No creationist has ever seen it... in part 'cause if it's corrected, things get worse for Ye Arke.)

The sheer size. HMS _Victory_, still preserved at Portsmouth, was 186 feet long on the gundeck. HMS _Victoria_, the last full-rigged 1st rate ship of the line to serve as flag of the Channel Fleet, built in 1859, was 250 feet long on the gundeck. And she had a steel frame because the RN had found that building wooden ships much bigger than 225 feet long was not a good idea because they tended to straddle or to hog on being launched; that is, they tended to bend, their bows and sterns to stick up out of the water at an angle, (that¹s straddling) or to bend the other way, the bows and sterns supported by waves but the midships sections out of the water (or at least not as well supported) (that¹s hogging) and either way their keels tended to crack under the strain. Even with steel frames, wooden ships bigger than 250 feet long tended to hog or straddle. Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself. One possible source: _The Wooden Fighting Ship In the Royal Navy, 897-1860_, EHH Archibald, Blandford Press, London. Sorry, my copy was published back before ISBNs. Edward Archibald was at the time of writing the curator of the National Maritime Museum, Portsmouth, England. Or build a wooden boat 250 feet long and see what happens. Ye Arke was the size of _two_ 1st rate line of battleships, laid end-to-end. Noah was a shepherd. He knew better than the shipwrights at Chatham who built the ships with which the RN dominated the world for 150 years? If I'm wrong, and it is possible to build a 450 foot wooden vessel, by all means demonstrate it. I'll even put up some of the money... so long as I get to record the launch of said vessel. And so long as those who say that such a craft would be safe are willing to stay on it while it's being launched. Me, I figure that I'd get some _great_ pix.

ElohimJD

Krazysh0t

The Earth Canopy? By that are you referring to the vapor canopy hypothesis? You know, that crazy biblical claim that if it were true would crush every single land animal on the planet into red paste?

First, let us look at atmospheric pressure. For the earth's atmosphere, the pressure is almost exactly hydrostatic, since it is held to the earth by gravity and velocities are too low to significantly change the pressure. In plain language this means that the air pressure at any point is equal to the weight of the air in a unit area column above that point. At sea level, air pressure in US engineering units is about 14.5 pounds/sq inch because a column of air one inch square extending to the top of the atmosphere weighs (Guess what!?) 14.5 pounds. On top of Mt. Everest, the pressure is lower because the lowest and densest 9km of the atmosphere is below that point.

Now the "vapor canopy" would form a part of the atmosphere, being a body of gas (water vapor) gravitationally held to the earth. It would in fact be most of the pre-flood atmosphere. There would have to be enough vapor to form 9km of liquid, when condensed, and, therefore the vapor would weigh as much as 9km of water. The pressure at the earth's surface, where Noah and family lived, would be equal to one atmosphere PLUS the weight of a 9km column of water of unit area. This is equivalent to the pressure 9km deep in the ocean. What is this pressure? Well, each 10m of water is roughly equivalent to one atmosphere, so the pressure would be 900 atmospheres. The atmosphere would also have a composition of about 900 parts water vapor to one part of what we call air today.

No,

But similar.

God Bless,

Care to elaborate then or do we just have to have faith that whatever you said is correct?

FlyersFan

Krazysh0t
we will ever know what ACTUALLY happened back then short of a time machine,

Science is our time machine. We have ice core samples that take us back past 4300 bc when Noahs Ark was supposed to happen. The ice core samples prove it didn't happen. We have living 100,000 year old coral reefs and 80,000 year old living trees. The fact that they are undisturbed and living mean that the flood didn't happen. Those are our 'time machines' back in time. And time machines take us there ... with no lies ... bold naked truth.

Oh I know and agree with you. The reason I emphasized the word actually was because I was getting at the actual events that transpired that inspired the flood story. Whether it was some dude on a raft with his livestock weathering an unusually long flood or a family being the sole survivors of a particularly devastating flood. Who knows? All I know is that there are many ancient stories depicting a flood account from different civilizations, so something musts have happened. Then after whatever happened, the survivors told a tale (probably embellished a bit to make it sound more extravagant) and the telephone game took over until we have God coming down and telling some sap to pack his family up with all the animals of the world with a giant boat.

Krazysh0t
Oh I know and agree with you.

I know. That was really for the consumption of 'others'.

And I agree with you on the embellishments. We know for a fact that the biblical account of Noahs Ark is dead wrong. It's myth or folklore. Someone had a really big flood in a part of the world and ... using the childrens game of 'telephone' through the centuries, mixed with a whole lot of religious fanaticism ... we get 'Giglimesh' ... which was stolen by the Hebrews hundreds of years later and changed into their version of the myth/folklore.

But the bottom line ... it didn't happen.
So whatever Hollywood does with the story doesn't matter.
It's all fictional anyways.

reply to post by FlyersFan


It isn't a problem for me just for you. PERIOD. One you have to learn to live with.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Off the top of my head the seven yr cycle of farming.
Science only confirms the Bible. I'm sure you'll smack that
down with semantics or some scientific ass wipe tho.
but your request has been met.

reply to post by randyvs

Nope. Not my problem. You are the one that has to live with denying reality .. not me. BTW .. you didn't address the mathematical facts I presented. You know, the ones that show the population couldn't be what it is today if everyone got wiped out 4300 years ago in a world wide flood? Care to address them?

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are the one who doesn't understand that we are talking about
someone who defies reality in the first place. For cry'n out loud.
FLY stay in context. And you call yopurself a Christian ? Bah!

The flood happened only because our Father in Heaven said it did.
Not because you say it did or didn't. You need to keep God clearly
in mind. But that seems hard for you Mr. Christian.

Since you avoid scientific truth like a vampire avoids holy water, I gave math statistics.
You still didn't address the mathematical facts that show the population couldn't be
what it is today if we all came from Noah and his family 4300 years ago.
Please address that.

randyvs
You are the one who doesn't understand that we are talking about someone who defies reality in the first place.

Oh dude ... I'll give you this ... you are entertaining ...

You do realize that it's possible to be a Christian and also accept the fact that Noahs Ark didn't happen, right? Following Jesus teachings of 'love God and love Neighbor' and believing that Jesus came to Earth from Heaven to save souls, are not contingent upon belief in things that have been proven not to happen. I"m Christian. And yet, I can accept the facts that show much of the O.T. stories are myth and folklore. It doesn't effect my salvation. If you accept the reality of the situation, your salvation won't be effected. You are still a Christian ... belief in Noah or not.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Strike down one miracle and you're not a Christian because you
doubt God. You are no Christian like I've ever seen.

randyvs
The flood happened only because our Father in Heaven said it did.

No god didn't say it did. MEN claiming to speak for God regurgitated old folklore and rewrote it to fit their religion. The facts show this to be true. Facts are facts. Truth is truth. The numbers don't lie.

Speaking of numbers ... please address the mathematical numbers I gave about the population of the Earth.

But that seems hard for you Mr. Christian.

MRS. Christian ... thank you very much.

Again .. a person can accept the fact that Noahs Ark did not happen, and that in no way effects their belief in God or their belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior. The two are mutually exclusive of each other. If you are basing your belief in God on folklore and mythology instead of on fact, then you have built your faith-house on sand instead of solid rock.

Don't be afraid to accept the truth of the situation. It's reality.
And it won't effect your faith in God. It's okay randyvs ... go ahead and give it a try.
Try reality on for size ... see how it fits.

randyvs
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Off the top of my head the seven yr cycle of farming.
Science only confirms the Bible. I'm sure you'll smack that
down with semantics or some scientific ass wipe tho.
but your request has been met.

edit on Ram32114v06201400000053 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Are you referring to this? Shmita

During shmita, the land is left to lie fallow and all agricultural activity, including plowing, planting, pruning and harvesting, is forbidden by halakha (Jewish law). Other cultivation techniques (such as watering, fertilizing, weeding, spraying, trimming and mowing) may be performed as a preventative measure only, not to improve the growth of trees or other plants. Additionally, any fruits which grow of their own accord are deemed hefker (ownerless) and may be picked by anyone. A variety of laws also apply to the sale, consumption and disposal of shmita produce. All debts, except those of foreigners, were to be remitted.[2]

Which isn't the same as this: Crop rotation

Also I fail to see how science confirmed anything about this. According to the wiki article for crop rotation:

Middle Eastern farmers practiced crop rotation in 6000 BC without understanding the chemistry, alternately planting legumes and cereals.

6000 BC predates the bible by the way. Not to mention we have records of this taking place outside the bible. Therefore the bible is NOT the original source of information for crop rotation. I don't really care about the shmita, that is just some silly ritual that the Hebrews do and has no scientific baring or use.

So I ask again, but this time I guess a little bit more specific, what things talked about in the bible has science confirmed? I'd really like to know, plus I'd like some actual links, articles, and evidence this time; not vague ideas that you leave me to interpret as I will.

randyvs
Strike down one miracle and you're not a Christian because you doubt God.

There was no miracle of Noahs Ark. It didnt' happen.
And most of Christianity understands this and it doesn't effect their belief in God.

You are no Christian like I've ever seen.

Then you need to get out more because the vast majority of Christians do NOT believe in that the myth of Noahs Ark actually happened.

Again ... address the mathematical numbers I gave on the population.
Where did all these extra people come from? And the different skin colors?
If Noahs Ark happened in 4300 BC, we couldn't have nearly this many people on the planet.
And certainly not all the ethnic diversity. So address the numbers ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

There was no miracle of Noahs Ark.

Say it as much as you want. That's your doubt to deal with.
I don't doubt God. See it's called the living Bible because it
is the living truth. No lies because God himself would not allow it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Who cares about all the things that would have to line up AFTER the flood ended like population density and such when the dimensions of the ark are GIVEN in the bible and when constructed by skilled shipwrights, the ark falls apart when put in water? We can actually reconstruct the ark that is said to have been built by a sheepherder (read: NOT a shipwright of any sort) and engineering, math, and physics literally make that structure a physical impossibility to EVER function as a boat for a long period of time. It doesn't matter what randy says about science coming around to a flood happening, the very dimensions of the ark given in the bible make the story an impossibility. That isn't science either, it's just straight up engineering and math.

randyvs
Say it as much as you want. That's your doubt to deal with.

I don't 'doubt' Noahs Ark. I KNOW it didn't happen.

I don't doubt God.

Neither do I.
Noahs Ark didn't happen.
That in no way effects God or my belief in God.

Still waiting for you to address the mathematical information I gave about the population numbers.
Where'd all the extra people come from? We all shouldn't be here if Noahs Ark happened.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Who cares about all the things that would have to line up AFTER the flood ended like population density and such when the dimensions of the ark are GIVEN in the bible and when constructed by skilled shipwrights, the ark falls apart when put in water? We can actually reconstruct the ark that is said to have been built by a sheepherder (read: NOT a shipwright of any sort) and engineering, math, and physics literally make that structure a physical impossibility to EVER function as a boat for a long period of time. It doesn't matter what randy says about science coming around to a flood happening, the very dimensions of the ark given in the bible make the story and impossibility. That isn't science either, it's just straight up engineering and math.

Exactly, You and I understand better than Mr. Christian.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Very, very true.

The OP doesn't like science, so I switched to math. That's why I brought up the population today being impossible if Noahs Ark happened. A person can't argue with Math. It's absolute.

A few pages ago I brought up something similar to what you just said here. I brought up that there would have been at least 16,000,000 critters on that ark .. plus food for them all for a year .. plus fresh water for them for a year. The math says, that all couldn't fit on the ark.

Math .. the absolute infallible language of the universe.