Noah

Trollsmustdie
I was ready to spend a significant amount of time and effort on this thread but I see it would be futile.

Let the ignorant be ignorant.

Sharing information is never futile. Calling people ignorant because they don't believe in what you do us ignorant.

On thing I would like to say though is;

if a real born again Christian is loving you enough to inform you of Gods word, the Bible ( I prefer to read the King James Bible ) and he is incorrect,
you have nothing to loose.

What is a "real" born again Christian and why are they more of an authority than Catholics or Methodists for example? Even when I thought there was a god I never thought the bible consisted of gods words. Every book in it is written by men for men.

But, if he is correct then you are in serious trouble.

I don't get your meaning here. What kind if trouble and what are they right about?

Also, the ones that say there is no evidence, you clearly choose not to look.
Let the ignorant be ignorant

That's a bold and saucy assumption and rather ignorant in and of itself. I can only speak for myself, but I've looked from both sides of the coin for many, many years. I was very active in my church when younger and did quite a lot of studying which led me to the conclusion that it's about as real as the Greco Roman pantheonIf there's evidence please point it out to me. I'm open minded enough to entertain any actual evidence.

I don't believe in Luck but you do so,
best of luck with what ever it is you think you know.

I'd say the same in return.

peter vlar

tsingtao

you people claim we pick and choose. lots of stuff we don't understand, but we, as christians admit it.
we try to be good, lol, don't you?

"We as Christians" admit you don't understand things? No offense, but that's a first for me. The usual party line from that camp is that the bible is the infallible word of god. I suppose whether I try to be good or not depends on your definition. I try to treat people with kindness and respect and act as what I feel is a good person.

it's very funny when people make a definitive claim about something about God and stuff they have no clue about.
lol. pat post.

I made no claims about god. I don't know if there is one or not. I simply have seen nothing to indicate there is one outside people's imaginations but I'm always open to new evidence. Everything else I wrote I actually do have a clue about so it's actually you who is speaking without a clue regarding my knowledge base.

so now there is a claim genetic abnormalities started with noahs family, after the flood?
wow.

Hold your shock and awe over this as its Not quite what I said. What I said was that if all the people in the entire world were killed except for Noah and his family as claimed in scripture then those 6 or 8 people and their descendants would be forced to inbreed as there were no other people alive to mate with. After a few generations the genetic abnormalities would have been extraordinarily pronounced making it impossible for humans to exist as they do today. The science behind this is completely sound and there is even a modern day example in Australia. Only in the Australian case there is an entire town not just a handful of people and the genetic drift over just 50 years was really detrimental to their health. It would most definitely have been more pronounced in the case of Noah's family with fewer people of breeding age. Facts are facts. Sorry.

ever tried to find anything in the dessert?

Yes and if the number of Semitic people involved in the exodus actually took place for 40 years there would be tons of evidence of their camps and travels.

flood? seems like there were many noah's. some written some not, i guess.

There were many tall tales, some written some not. There were no Noah's that existed outside of the fairy tale that can be tangentially proven let alone definitively.

slave is a very fluid word, ya think? ideologically? financially? sexually? or were they working on cotton plantations?

which was it?

Damned if I know. Ask the person I was responding to. They mentioned slaves. I gave a counter argument as to how unlikely the scenario is in my opinion based on available data and evidence of which there is none outside the OT/Torah. Read the story of Exodus and tell me what kind of slaves they were.

edit on 3118443231am2014 by tsingtao because: (no reason given)

edit on 3159453231am2014 by tsingtao because: (no reason given)

yeah, you don't know everything do you, about being good.

and why spout off about not knowing if there is a god, like you know there is one?

as for noah and your genetic disaster theory, prove it. you can't. yet here we are.
waiting for science to fix everything. did i mention waiting?

and where would that evidence be? under how many feet of sand? we know where they ended up, right?

i believe you are wrong about the flood and noah clones. i resent the fact that you called it a fairy tale.
your proof is just your opinion.

we know the jews didn't build the pyramids or even that the egyptians did.
they were bound to egypt in some kind of way. probably not slaves in the modern sense. then again, i hear we are slaves to a myriad of things, even today.
if i want a literal translation, i can get it.

i translate chinese movies for subtitles into english. things just get lost in translation, don't they.
in fact i feel bad when i translate it into modern english, i really like the old literal translations.
more character to it.

slave can mean alot of things. especially in a 4000 yo language.

Sorry, but I haven't read all 22 pages but I thought I'd share this..



I think some people are taking this waaaay too seriously!

One could call the bible a fiction, especially with the amount of changes it's had over the centuries, who knows what's what these days?

And the Noah's ark story isn't a Christian exclusive anyway, it turns up in the Quaran and the Mesopotamians and Sumerians have flood stories that precede anything Christian.

Oh well.

tsingtao

yeah, you don't know everything do you, about being good.

and why spout off about not knowing if there is a god, like you know there is one?

If by spout off I discuss my agnosticism then sure but your question makes no sense do I don't quite know how to respond.

as for noah and your genetic disaster theory, prove it. you can't. yet here we are.
waiting for science to fix everything. did i mention waiting?

So you're telling me that 7 billion people are descended from Noah's 3 sons and their wives? See below for links and more information on inbreeding.

and where would that evidence be? under how many feet of sand? we know where they ended up, right?

Yes, actually we do know where they ended up.the Torah tells us the places they rested. And if they were in Egypt why is there no mention of them on Egyptian records or any archaeological trace of them? The exodus is supposed to have occurred 480 years before the building of the first temple under Solomon. the archaeological record made this date impossible: Egyptian records of that period do not mention the expulsion of any group that could be identified with over two million Hebrew slaves, nor any events which could be identified with the Biblical plagues, and digs in the 1930s had failed to find traces of the simultaneous destruction of Canaanite cities c.1400 BCE — in fact many of them, including Jericho, the first Canaanite city to fall to the Israelites according to the Book of Joshua, were uninhabited at the time.

i believe you are wrong about the flood and noah clones. i resent the fact that you called it a fairy tale.
your proof is just your opinion.

What Noah clones are you talking about? I never said anything about clones.

I'm sorry that it bothers you so much that I think the story is little more than a fairy tale but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it just as you are entitled to believe whatever works for you. None of that changes the impossibility of stable genetics from the inbreeding of the children born post flood is a fact. It's basic biology.

Unions contracted between persons biologically related as second cousins or closer (F ≥ 0.0156) are categorized as consanguineous. Higher rates of neonatal and post-neonatal deaths, and deaths of children younger than 5 years were observed in consanguineous couples.

Also, medical professionals have found “significant association between parental consanguinity and congenital hypothyroidism.” Congenital hypothyroidism seems to correlate with the degree of consanguinity—children of first cousins are more prone to than those of second cousins.

Amid all the confusions, it is very well accepted that among genetic disorders, only autosomal recessive disorders are strongly associated with consanguinity. However, there are ample of studies showing that in a population with a high rate of consanguinity, there is a significant increase in the prevalence of common adult diseases like mental disorders, heart diseases, gastro-intestinal disorders, hypertension, hearing deficit, and cancer.

Here's an article on inbreeding in Kentucky- kentuckybluepeople.wordpress.com...

we know the jews didn't build the pyramids or even that the egyptians did.
they were bound to egypt in some kind of way. probably not slaves in the modern sense. then again, i hear we are slaves to a myriad of things, even today.
if i want a literal translation, i can get it.

Oh cool, were playing semantic games now because there is absolutely no evidence of Jews in Egypt or a mass exodus of them FROM Egypt as I have shown above.

slave can mean alot of things. especially in a 4000 yo language.

The Pentateuch was written in Hebrew which wasn't a common language until a few hundred years before the alleged birth if Christ. Even if by some miracle it was written in proto Hebrew it was definitely not written until centuries after the Exodus was supposed to have occurred. It's nowhere near 4000 years old.

reply to post by peter vlar

there is absolutely no evidence of Jews in Egypt or a mass exodus of them FROM Egypt as I have shown above.

Since WHEN has history ever spoken the truth?

The truth is ALWAYS covered-up by lies.

Egyptian historians used the art of propaganda through falsification of history as a mind control technique.

Finding the truth sometimes requires believing the opposite of what propaganda is telling us...

"It was also illegal to record any history in Egypt that made the Pharaoh look bad. That is why they did not record the God of the slaves whooping their butts. If any scribe did that, he probably would have been killed. As an Atheist friend of mine who loved Egypt told me, Egyptian history was basically propaganda." Source

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

Murgatroid
reply to post by peter vlar

 

there is absolutely no evidence of Jews in Egypt or a mass exodus of them FROM Egypt as I have shown above.

Since WHEN has history ever spoken the truth?

The truth is ALWAYS covered-up by lies.

Egyptian historians used the art of propaganda through falsification of history as a mind control technique.

Finding the truth sometimes requires believing the opposite of what propaganda is telling us...

"It was also illegal to record any history in Egypt that made the Pharaoh look bad. That is why they did not record the God of the slaves whooping their butts. If any scribe did that, he probably would have been killed. As an Atheist friend of mine who loved Egypt told me, Egyptian history was basically propaganda." Source

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

I don't disagree with notions such as "History is always recorded by the victors". It's kind of like how you selected one specific item to target from all the varying examples I gave to support my supposition. But I'll play along.

The issue I take with your approach to this is you are focusing solely on the Egyptian end of the equation. I could see the possibility of Egypt altering their version of history for posterities sake. However, the enslavement story didn't end with Egypt. The Exodus supposedly led the Hebrews through the Sinai desert for 38 years nd then on into Canaan. The Torah even describes the places the Hebrew people following Moses stopped to rest a d make camp. It is physically impossible for 600,000 men on foot (plus their wives children and the elderly according to Exodus 12 37-38) to leave absolutely zero trace in the archaologicsl record. When factoring in the wives children etc. we're looking at well over a million people which makes the improbability of no archaeological record even greater. As I said above, the Torah describes places the Hebrew people had stopped, made camp etc. yet you're trying to tell me that the state of Israel is complicit in covering up one of the most important religious events recorded in the Torah ? That they purposely covered up archaeological evidence of the Exodus when proving it, in the minds of many in the Knesset, would affirm even more their right to control and live in Israel. There have been multiple archaeological expeditions in the Sinai peninsula as well as Canaan/Israel and not a single trace of that vast amount of nomads has ever been located despite the alleged locations being described in the Torah. I'm sorry but that is some serious cognitive disconnect. That isn't even getting into archaeological records and finds in Israel itself that do not support the Exodus one iota such as the fact that the Torah claims the Israelites took the city of Jericho by force yet the city had already been long abandoned by the time of the alleged Exodus.

Again, I could see the possibility of one country like Egypt trying to save a little face but what you are talking about is a multinational conspiracy to hide the history of the Jews that includes Israel. That simply defies all logic.

reply to post by peter vlar

Again, I could see the possibility of one country like Egypt trying to save a little face but what you are talking about is a multinational conspiracy to hide the history of the Jews that includes Israel. That simply defies all logic.

Ok, forget what I'M saying just for a moment...

Probably nothing I say would convince you anyway.

Here's what you need to ask yourself...

WHY do countless respected leaders disagree with everything you say?

These are people who were privy to knowledge that you and I would NEVER have access to BTW.

George Washington, JFK and countless others as well as hundreds of whistle blowers.

IF there WERE no multinational conspiracy, WHAT exactly did JFK lay his life down for?

There are FAR too many people who disagree such as Danny Casolaro, Fletcher Prouty, and on and on and on...

Another MASSIVE issue you seem completely blind to: TPTB agree with everything you say.

Don't take that as a personal dig, that's NOT what it's not intended to be.

It's getting very late and I'll just leave you with this:

Past presidents of the United States and other high profile political leaders have repeatedly issued warnings over the last 214 years that the U.S. government is under the control of an “invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”

According to six of our former presidents, one vice-president, and a myriad of other high profile political leaders, an invisible government that is “incredibly evil in intent” has been in control of the U.S. government “ever since the days of Andrew Jackson” (since at least 1836). They “virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties… It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”

As a result, “we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.”

“A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interests, combined in one mass, and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in banks.” – John C. Calhoun, Vice President (1825-1832)

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”— Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States

From Washington to JFK: Former Presidents Warn About Illuminati

reply to post by Murgatroid


Just something quick before I pass out since its almost 3 AM... I should have been clearer in how I worded my comments regrading international conspiracies. The context I meant it in was a multi national conspiracy amongst scientists including te Israelis who would have the most to gain by showing evidence of the Exodus. I was actually a big fan of Danny Cassolaro N the work he was doing on the "octopus" conspiracy before he was killed off. So yes, I most definitely do believe in conspiracies of the nature and magnitude. Just look at the P2 scandal of the late 70's and early 80's. it stretched from Langley to Chicago where Marcinkus as from to the Vatican itself and on to several international bankers and finally Brittain. Sorry for not being more clear on that. Ad no, I didn't take any of your comments personally. A full of myself as I can be sometimes I also know that I'm just human and fallible like everyone else and thus can be not just wrong but very wrong sometimes. I'm here to learn not just share knowledge or as some people think, shove my views down their throat by any means necessary. I'm all for denying my own ignorance by trying to see others point of view as well as giving mine.

reply to post by peter vlar


I am astounded at the path this conversation has taken. Peter your
knowledge commands respect as always.

Murg

And Murgatroid makes a great point in regard to the lack
of historicity for a hebrew expulsion from egypt. One
could say this is how history might become mystery and
then even myth in some instances. The egyptians just
wouldn't mention such an absolute defeat in their own
history. At any rate I applaud you both.

reply to post by randyvs


Just out of interest, have you seen the film yet randy? And if you did, was it worth seeing?

reply to post by MissBeck


I knew this question would come before I could get
there. As embarrassing as it is to admit I haven't
got there yet. I'm leaving in just under an hour to go
to the matinee. So I'll inform tonight.

reply to post by randyvs


Excellent! I want a full report! Cinemas too expensive over here, so I will have to wait until it's out on TV, or DVD if it's worthwhile.

reply to post by MissBeck


Expensive here as well. That's why the matinee.
But will do.

randyvs
reply to post by peter vlar

 

I am astounded at the path this conversation has taken. Peter your
knowledge commands respect as always.

Murg

And Murgatroid makes a great point in regard to the lack
of historicity for a hebrew expulsion from egypt. One
could say this is how history might become mystery and
then even myth in some instances. The egyptians just
wouldn't mention such an absolute defeat in their own
history. At any rate I applaud you both.

edit on Ram40714v01201400000046 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Randy, I really do appreciate the sentiment. If people of such diametrically opposing views as you and I can find a middle ground and agree to disagree while still trying to be respectful of one another it gives me a little hope for the world and the future my/our children will inherit. One of the downsides is that I spent so many of my formative years in a very religious upbringing so I've read all the scripture inside and out which makes it a little easier for me to see through the facades so to speak. Just because I may not agree with the historical aspects of Christianity and Judaism doesn't mean I don't have the utmost appreciation for those who can step away from all of that and focus on the message of Christ. i.e. people who are kind and respectful of all and living a life Jesus himself would've been proud of because at the end of the day that's what you'll be remembered for more than who you pray to. OK...off my soapbox now. Enjoy the film. I'm interested in your take on it.

reply to post by peter vlar

reply to post by MissBeck

I'm interested in your take on it.

And were back. In words:

Visionary and imaginative as the story is told loosely along the original
story line. To let any bias against the OT, prevent one from seeing
this movie, would be a big mistake. Darren Aronfsky ( an atheist )
promised a very different film and he has delivered. Russel Crowes
presence in the film is of course awesome. I recommend it highly
and any interests will be satisfied much better if seen in the theatre.

All bias aside a great great movie. It's Hollywood.

reply to post by randyvs


Great stuff randy! Thanks. I'll definitely watch it anyway, despite good or bad reports. Just way after everyone else!