Old picture of Japanese Samurai

ElectricUniverse

Of the over 25 Shinobi Ryuha the Iga Ryu and the Koga Ryu were the most prominent ones.

A Brief History of Ninjutsu



(Extracts of an interview with Saito Soke, 16th Grandmaster Iga Ryu Ninjutsu)

There were more than 25 ninjutsu ryuha, and among them the most prominent styles were Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu. Later came Kishu Ryu and this came from Iga/Koga Ryu, and was merely a branch of these styles. Initially there were only 2 major ryuha and they were Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu. The next styles were Koyo Ryu and Ninko Ryu, and these came from the middle parts of the rugged mountain area of Honshu. The content of the documents of Koyo Ryu and Ninko Ryu were simplistic in comparison to documents of the Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu. The techniques of the Koyo Ryu and Ninko Ryu were often very simple and are still techniques used by the Yamabushi (they are still linked to the Yamabushi Heiho). If the styles of the Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu are examined closely there are only very subtle differences between them. Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu are infact the same style and are of perfect similarity, even differences in the kanji characters are minimal.
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www.igaryu.com...

i wasnt disputing the existence of koga ryu
i was pointing out that it was not recognized as a still intact lineage by the japanese groups who do verify that kind of thing.
it would seem however that even the school hatsumi represents are not accepted by these two organisations either. so i retract that part of my post. _no_ ninjutsu schools are classed as authentic koryu.

you can believe what you want about your teachers. but i have met enough to know its all one big smoke and mirrors game.

okamitengu

exactly the self important statement i would expect.

Not a self important statement. If I were to say "assuming that anyone studying kyudo ever tells the truth." That would be an obvious attempt at insulting you, so don't try to play innocent and then continue insulting me.

But, since you wanted to continue insulting let me actually point at who has been really lying here.

Yes, I am aware you discuss this in another thread but you wanted to keep trying insulting me so I will prove who is a liar.

Let's start with your claim that you have been researching the Kokuryukai (Black Dragon Society) for 30 years. In fact, let me even excerpt your claims to prove my point.

I am only excerpting part of your claims that prove who is/has been lying.

okamitengu
hello all,
i have been for many years now researching a pre ww2 group called the kokuryukai. black dragon society.

i have ammassed a wealth of documents, none of which i brought with me to japan, but very interesting stuff.
...
now im looking to chat with anyone who thinks they know more about this. bear in mind before you contact me, i have nearly 30 years of experience with this. so no time wasters please.
...

With that much time of research you should know that the Black Dragon Society not only is part of a bigger Order of himitsu kessha, which yes I am aware that you mentioned that, but you should also know, if you really have done 30 years of research, that the Order of himitsu kessha that the Black Dragon Society is a part of have used black arts, including what can be described as Satanism.

Now let me continue.

Another member, who seems to have more knowledge than you on the Black Dragon Society, states in that thread of yours, and I quote:

erniemink1
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All I can say is I wish I could help those who have been victimized by them. You would find it hard to believe what these people are capable of unless you witness what they do and who they are for yourselves. If anyone wants to talk to me about any of this including illuminism, satanism, gangland stalking (cult-based stalking) or know someone who needs help, let me know. Thank you. I am taking a risk posting this but it gets old after a while, don't you think?

I am not sure about his whole account of having trained under them, I met someone who also told me the same thing many years ago which I didn't believe, but at least what the member says about the Black Dragon Society and the other orders that merged forces with them is true, and a lot more.

To this you respond.

okamitengu
well my involvement does show cruelty but satanism? since i have never seen any evidence any of them believed in christ or satan i find that one hard to believe.

clarify?

if you wish to discuss this in private feel free u2u. i can give u my email address via that method should you choose to discuss this.

okamitengu

To me this shows that you don't have 30 years of experience, and having researched into the Black Dragon Society, not even 3 years of research back in 2009 when you made this claim.

You obviously don't know much about the himitsu kessha (secret societies), or even know the policy of hakko ichiu (All eight corners of the world under one roof) whose modern tenets describes some of the main goals of the Order that the Kokuryukai have been a part of. The Black Dragon Society merged with other himitsu kessha that were also trying to bring nationalism and fascism back to the people of Japan and had other similar goals. Among those orders that joined were the Yakuza, the Order of the Green Dragon(based on the secret group of the "Green Men"), and the Genyosha (Dark Ocean Society), among others.

Among the goals the society has, because of the beliefs of the Green Men/The Green Dragon Society, one is to attain occult powers. The society had been researching for decades old books and scrolls from all over the world trying to find the key to more occult powers. Not only that, but among the three main goals of the society one is to make sure the line of the Emperor not only survives, but that the living Emperor becomes a god, and they have been planning to do this through massive death rituals. To the himitsu kessha the Emperor is a divine being deriving his divinity from the great Amaterasu-Omikami, who is the Goddess of the Sun according to their belief.

To make the story short, the Order claims, mostly the Green Dragons (who are still part of the Order), to have used the black arts to drive some men insane, to kill them and even to make them vanish. They even went so far as to claim to have caused the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923, because they believe that only by unleashing hell and to cause massive deaths in Japan, can they absorb enough power to recreate the rituals that will transform the Emperor, or his line, into a god. The other reason for them wanting to unleash disasters in Japan was, or is, to steer the Japanese people from international and socialist influences, and to infuse a more nationalistic, and fascist identity on the people of Japan. (which is ironic since fascism is a form of socialism but that's a matter for another thread)

However many among the Kokuryukai thought that the earthquake was just a coincidence, even when they themselves also wanted to cause disasters in Japan to steer outside influences away from Japan.

The Kokuryukai, and the rest of the Order of himitsu kessha do not want, if they still exist, anything good even when they would fight against the western NWO. The Kokuryukai are just one small section among the Order of himitsu kessha, and to me it is extremely weird that with 30 years, or even with 3 years of research that you wouldn't have found this out.

This is only the tip of the iceberg of the information about the Black Dragon Society or the Order of himitsu kessha that the Black Dragon are a part of and which was known about even back in the 30s-40s. Even the Office of Naval Intelligence knew this information back then, and you want to claim that you have 30 years of experience and research on the Order of himitsu kessha yet you don't know this?... To me it is really obvious who is lying.

It's obvious that you have only heard Ben talk about a few things about the Black Dragon Society and you decided to exaggerate your knowledge of it.

Again, that's without me going over the claims you made about the Kobudo of Japan, or the Koga Ryu. And I am not even mentioning your claims about Sensei Juan Hombre, but for your information, just because people have been studying Martial Arts it doesn't mean they know the history of Martial Arts.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Agreed.

Like Viking's. They are depicted as dripping with manliness, bad-ass, super buff warriors wielding 6 ft battle azes.

Yet media would leave out the rape, plunder, and murder. That part is not so badass, so they leave it out.

Or French musketeers. They are elegant, strutting princely warriors. But then people do not realize they were chosen from aristocratic blood, and to them, there very biological makeup makes them better than you, and they definitely acted so. While you stood by with your eyes wide open with admiration and amazement, they would be wondering what is wrong with this poor, dirty mongrel, and why he is standing so close to him.

Samurai were the same. They, just like other warrior classes, have been romanticized so much for media entertainment. We have kids (like me and my friends not so long ago) debating who is more deadly, and who will end up killing who.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Really, modern western culture doesn't bother looking at all the angle, subtle or obvious, religious or secular, of any culture that is not of 'Murica. You can see this further perpetuated with the ignorant, classist, racist comedy we see on television. But funny how media loves to up the coolness of samurai's, viking's and Musketeers. Truth is, these warrior classes, their lifestyles and the roles they existed to fulfill are probably the darker, more unpleasant side of these cultures.

Jukiodone
Probably taken right before the older Samurai took the younger Samurai off for some "love training".
Bi-Do...Samurai had as many names for man-boy-love as Eskimos have for snow.

Long over romanticized view of people with questionable morality (basically Mercs)...give me an AR15 in just about every other scenario except a small confined space.

Metal work is unquestionably brilliant but I would question their monicker as "best trained fighters ever"..reckon Pirates or Ninjas would give them a run for their money (LOL)

edit on 27-11-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-11-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

Well said, same as the Spartan's and their man-boy love. Another romanticized warrior class with their dark culture left out.

Where did your background come from? THAT looks pretty badass.

reply to post by SlyGuy


Compared to up close, sword to sword combat? Light work.

It takes considerably less skill, and bravery, to pull triggers than to swing hammers/maces/swords/spears...

call me a roman tic,,, but i was always partial ,too ,, this kind of a scenario,,

ElectricUniverse

okamitengu

exactly the self important statement i would expect.

Not a self important statement. If I were to say "assuming that anyone studying kyudo ever tells the truth." That would be an obvious attempt at insulting you, so don't try to play innocent and then continue insulting me.

But, since you wanted to continue insulting let me actually point at who has been really lying here.

Yes, I am aware you discuss this in another thread but you wanted to keep trying insulting me so I will prove who is a liar.

Let's start with your claim that you have been researching the Kokuryukai (Black Dragon Society) for 30 years. In fact, let me even excerpt your claims to prove my point.

I am only excerpting part of your claims that prove who is/has been lying.

how does any of that prove any lies. nothing i siad was untrue, from my experience.
at best it shows we have different sources for our investigation. it shows that we have come at the same issues from different directions.

you really got offended by something. im not sure where you saw me imply you were lying, i was only pointing out those "clans" are not accepted as authentic by the bodies in japan that regulate these things.

now as to my experience, i dont really mind what you believe. but to assume you are dealing with ninja, should be to assume that at some point they will feed you something misleading or to test.
you wouldnt talk to a CIA operative about his training or work and assume that its truth.

if you took my statement about not trusting your sources completely as an insult, then you seem to have some real insecurity issues, either about yourself or your training.

im not fussed what you think about me or about ben, ive met him in person once and have been in touch with him since then.

my personal contact with those who told me they were black dragon goes back to 1978.
but again, with any of these things, its pays not to believe anything and instead try to find out for yourself.

as i said, in everything i had touched, i saw no satanism. they worship no western deities. they have thier own entire off shoot of shinto and buddhism.

now if you are one of those christians who believe any idolatory is witchcraft and satanism, then by that definition you will be right.

i think this conversation should be moved to U2u im happy to discuss this directly with you if you choose to clear up what you think was an insult of some kind.

this thread is being heavily derailed. my apologies to the OP.

okamitengu

how does any of that prove any lies. nothing i siad was untrue, from my experience.
at best it shows we have different sources for our investigation. it shows that we have come at the same issues from different directions.

It shows you are lying because in "30 years of experience and research" you should have found that out. That information is not that hard to find yet you were totally unaware of it.

okamitengu
you really got offended by something. im not sure where you saw me imply you were lying, i was only pointing out those "clans" are not accepted as authentic by the bodies in japan that regulate these things.

Right, as if your 2 attempts at insulting me were a joke... lol

You showed your true colors by not knowing what you are talking about, merging all Nihon Kobudo into one, and thinking you could speak for them. There are many different Kobudo in Japan, and even the 2 most prestigious ones state that quite a few other kobudo decided not to be part of those 2. Not only that but in their web page they even state that there are many Ryuha they haven't been able to get to verify, and not to take their list as the final word. As I mentioned there are many other Kobudo in Japan, and there isn't a single Kobudo that has the final say.

okamitengu
now as to my experience, i dont really mind what you believe. but to assume you are dealing with ninja, should be to assume that at some point they will feed you something misleading or to test.
you wouldnt talk to a CIA operative about his training or work and assume that its truth.

so I should take your word instead?... I rather take the word of my own Sensei thank you very much...

okamitengu
if you took my statement about not trusting your sources completely as an insult, then you seem to have some real insecurity issues, either about yourself or your training.

Again, don't try to play innocent. Your statement was clearly trying to insult Shinobi after I stated having studied Ninjutsu. It's that how you treat people in Japan who practice Martial Arts?...

okamitengu
...
my personal contact with those who told me they were black dragon goes back to 1978.
but again, with any of these things, its pays not to believe anything and instead try to find out for yourself.

And you actually think that anyone who belongs in the Order will tell you so?...That's another tale-tell sign that you don't know what you are doing. NO ONE who belongs in a himitsu kessha will tell you about it. You might as well ask them to paint a big red target on their backs and their families for your 5 minutes of fame.

okamitengu

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as i said, in everything i had touched, i saw no satanism. they worship no western deities. they have thier own entire off shoot of shinto and buddhism.

now if you are one of those christians who believe any idolatory is witchcraft and satanism, then by that definition you will be right.
...

The Green Men/Order of the Green Dragon, who are part of the Order, have dealt with the black arts and have performed death rituals. Not to mention that among the other himitsu kessha of the Order they wanted to transform the Japanese emperor, or his successor into a god. It has nothing to do with my beliefs but with theirs. Death rituals/sacrifices, the use of magic/black arts, and the belief that they can absorb the energy of countless dead people through massacres/death rituals is the definition of Satanism. If that doesn't sound similar to Satanism I don't know what does.

Westerners are not/have not been the only people in the world who have believed in religions which are in essence Satanist.

Anyway, you are right, apologies to the op for derailing the thread, but I got tired of your attempts at insults.

bigman88
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Agreed.

Like Viking's. They are depicted as dripping with manliness, bad-ass, super buff warriors wielding 6 ft battle azes.

Yet media would leave out the rape, plunder, and murder. That part is not so badass, so they leave it out.

I do not believe that every warrior was a rapist. Plunder and Killing is the goal of war btw.

Every culture has its moments.

Vikings are my style, Samurai also. Too bad my ancestors found religion, the whole world could of have been Viking.

There is slicing the throat of your opponent, getting sprayed and tickled in the face by their blood, ramming your sword through an enemy's gut,and watching their innards come out as soon as the blade come out of their bodies. The thrill of sparring,clashing steel with someone else and come out the victor.

There is also grabbing your weapon, hearing the whistle of bullets run past you with haste, the deafening sound of so many drums around you.The blinding of the dust in your eyes as speedy metal breaks the cover you're leaning on, the exilaration of knowing they missed you. Watching many men die,their brains come flying out of their bodies,bullets going inside them multiple times. Sometimes you don't even get to see who you killed, their face,expression,skin,eyes,hair, all unknown until too late.

Somewhat poetic,i know. But i tried to exemplify(that a word?) what i guess war must have been for them,and what it is to modern soldiers.

seabhac-rua
The probability that the samurai pictured here ever saw actual combat is very small.

These pictures were taken in the late 1800's when Japan was opening itself to the west, a time when the 'way of the sword' was in decline.

Many of the westerners who took these pictures lived and worked in Japan's large cities. Most of the samurai that were photographed in this period were either officials or lower ranking retainers, very few of them were actual swordsmen in the sense that they dedicated their lives to perfecting their martial skills.

edit on 26-11-2013 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

this is what i picked up from the photo. it feels like a ruse and you get the sense that most of the 'samurai' in the picture are trying to put on like they are harder than they are. they were merely stylistic imitators of a bygone era that had essentially faded.

i just don't sense that cold hearted killing machine vibe from any of these chaps.