Roswell: A Red Herring?

reply to post by Krakatoa


This is a debatable statement since people who have had experiences with ETs have a perfect right to claim THEY HAVE PROOF
Just because its not public proof doesn’t mean there is no evidence.

This may be a lesson from the wise ETs in epistemology:
If you don’t experience something you don’t know it.

Willtell
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

This is a debatable statement since people who have had experiences with ETs have a perfect right to claim THEY HAVE PROOF
Just because its not public proof doesn’t mean there is no evidence.

This may be a lesson from the wise ETs in epistemology:
If you don’t experience something you don’t know it.

Willtell: Please don't confuse the skepticism some of us have with certain stories (mythologies) to mean that many of us don't believe that something very strange is going on.

Some of us are just picky about our sources and information (disinformation.)

There just might be SOME buttholes who want to keep any "cosmic" info all to themselves and are thusly willing to lie and bait suckers for their own purposes, eh?

reply to post by The GUT


I agree.

My point actually was a comment on the reality of truth or “evidence” which brings into the picture that in a sense the experience of the UFO event can be likened to a religious experience as one of a personal nature.

One can’t give an inner experience to another.
But if one has on outer experience all they can do is relate it as it is. But the hearer won’t necessarily believe it. So it is proven to them who had the experience.

Think about it. Truth doesn’t follow our whims.

Galileo new the earth was round but the population was programmed to think a lie that it was flat by dogmatic ignoramuses of the Church.
So where was the truth? According to public awareness or the private awareness of a man of knowledge Galileo?


The greater point is that this UFO thing is of a experiential evidentiary nature.

The GUT
For anyone who hasn't seen it, Krakatoa has provided a very excellent Roswell debris analysis and OP in the finest of ATS tradition. Check it out. Whether you agree or not (I do) I believe you will find it a worthy read and worth flagging for the quality and time put into it:

My New Roswell Debris Review

Thank you sir, I am humbled by your praise and welcome civil discourse on the Roswell topic on that thread as well.

0bserver1
reply to post by smurfy

 

The fact that according to some all the cloaked mysteries that's even being acknowledged by corporations within the same organization ,have never happened and that we all suffer from disillusion is ridiculous.

Ahhh some are born with winkers and probably wear them for life...

It's much worse than that. The thing is Roswell has no pictorial evidence from the scene, absolutely none of an 'event' that is acknowledged to have taken place, while there are pictures available of a Blackbird crash cleanup?
The pictures of Ramey and Marcel in an office is also so far from the scene, (although there is much written about the seven office pictures, and the document that Ramey is holding ) so it a question of those who were there, the military crew who would have done the clean-up, after all, this was at least a 'top secret' project and going by that with what is given officially, would have been a fairly modest affair akin to picking up papers. So who were the guys? Who was the detail?

Why a distraction about the office pictures seemingly analysed in the 90's by an offcial source, (I forget which ) when there should be a detailed report somewhere on the clean-up and by default, those involved instead of the focus on the Ramey office pictures of which the detail is ambiguous.
It all goes back to the original story and Brazel, Marcel and whether a crashed disc/disk, or bits of a balloon, and the other anecdotes from those who did have names on the tin.

I sometimes have my own thoughts about Roswell.

See, what bugs me is how most ufo leave little traces at all, and crashed ufo in times where America could barely set up it own self defense network, and even had fighter jets in their armory. They would of have ample opportunity to extract.

Also, Aliens letting their technology get into hands of a people who had just discovered how to harness an atom two years earlier, and has virtually limited understanding of technology. Wouldn't they be a bit scared if our understandings of advanced technology got much better in time?

Roswell could of been just a false alarm, or a ploy pulled by the government. Possibly in order to create UFO Phenomena awareness.

Or Roswell was real, and it was practical joke done by an advanced alien race.

To send us advanced technology, for our species and government to help develop into our own technologies which could be based off their technology . I do remember a video which I think it was called "secret space wars" I believe, saying much of the technology came from roswell. Lasers, to cd's, and even fibre optics. However, not sure if thats statement is true.

Who knows, the aliens bodies they found on the craft could have been faked, and the scientist said " THIS IS GOING TO BE AWESOME" , when they realized it was rubber like that famous video that came out of no where.

I do believe Aliens have a sense of humor.

Specimen
...
To send us advanced technology, for our species and government to help develop into our own technologies which could be based off their technology . I do remember a video which I think it was called "secret space wars" I believe, saying much of the technology came from roswell. Lasers, to cd's, and even fibre optics. However, not sure if thats statement is true.
...

Well, I can attest that the history of the majority of these technical advancements do have a documented trail of discovery that pre-dates 1947. Fiber optics, for one, This technology has a well documented history, going back over 200 years. In fact the idea of transmitting sound and images via a light source actually goes back to the late 18th century (1790 France to be exact). Advancing the idea from there, and combined with the ability to create more pure glass, the idea of transmitting a video image was born.

In the 1920s, John Logie Baird patented the idea of using arrays of transparent rods to transmit images for television and Clarence W. Hansell did the same for facsimiles. Heinrich Lamm, however, was the first person to transmit an image through a bundle of optical fibers in 1930. It was an image of a light bulb filament. His intent was to look inside inaccessible parts of the body, but the rise of the Nazis forced Lamm, a Jew, to move to America and abandon his dream of becoming a professor of medicine. His effort to file a patent was denied because of Hansell's British patent.

Sources:
History of Fiber Optics Technology
A Fiber Optic Chronology


The other "advanced" technologies have equally documented progression histories, all from the brilliant minds of humans. All too often we look back at the men and women that came before us and (mistakenly) think they were backward and not capable of advanced thought. But many people that are ignorant of the real history mistakenly believe that the only way this could have happened was through "alien" involvement. Personally, I think that does our species a disservice. We are a smart ape, really smart, and capable of so much. Why do we constantly have the need to give credit of our brilliance to outside influences, and not the brilliance of our own species?

The GUT

Imo, folk really embarass themselves when they fail to research and understand the backstory and disinformationists.

They get an "A" for ignorant enthusiasm and an "F -" for knowledge. What can we do but shake our heads at the poor uniformed cheerleaders of B.S.? Poor suckers.

EarthCitizen: I truly like you, but you are, imo, the epitome of what's wrong with ufology and the kind of naive denizen that ATS ofttimes seems made for. It may sound harsh, but some of my greatest life lessons were learned this way: Grow up, refine your research skills, accept no crap from the "tin heroes" of ufology, and intellectually demand ALL the available information...not just that which suits your fantasy life.

I'm pretty sure we'll remain friends, EC...and I'd even wager you will thank us someday soon.

edit on 9-11-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Your petty insults have no bearing on the truth. The people you folks attack are the heroes responsible for any real disclosure we have had up till now, and people like you will keep looking at the trees but never see the forest.

On one hand you people outrage me, but on the otherhand I have pitty for you. Sooner or later, if and when the truth gets released, you will feel shameful for being so closed minded and misleading people.

Most people cant handle anything close to the truth and they need to make excuses to feel comfortable with their boring routine. I say the hell with political correctness and let everyone get floored. It is painful but necassary in the long run. At least we wont have world war 3 because of a religious superiority complex.

Krakatoa
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Religion and science helping each other?

Wow, I can see there will be no convincing you of the reality of history here, so, I will not try. We must just part agreeing to disagree here.

Roswell did happen, what is debatable, forever, is what it was that crashed. From almost 20 years f independent research, I have come to one conclusion that it was indeed a crashed balloon from Project Mogul. You, may disagree, and that is fine. Lets not derail this thread discussing the ephemera dichotomy of religion vs science as that is a bottomless pit IMO....and not relevant here.

Huzzah!

Yes its a false dichotomy! The ptb want people polarised into the evolutionary vs creationist camp perpetually, because its the perfect distraction for them to do other things. Other things like reverse engineer space-craft, plan wars to depopulate, crash economies, etc.

Last time I heard AA theory was only taken seriously by 1% of the worlds population. PTB are succedding. Good for them and bad for the people.

reply to post by Krakatoa

Look...

Don't get me wrong, their were plenty of folks in the time before the modern age that had many a great ideas, before they became a reality. They were unsung heroes. They had the ideas and visions, but lacked the application and know how. Even if their the grandparents of giving life to that know how.

But if Roswell was real, and it involved an alien space craft, that got into the hands of an army that became a super power two years earlier, and was willing to test nuclear arms on their on turf. Wouldn't any alien organization say to themselves "This is going to be trouble", and feel a little bit threatened? Know your enemy kind of bid.

Not only that, was the technology a couple of decades later introduced?

Was the crashed craft, an orange orb? Why didn't it just vaporize into thin air.

I could care less if thanksgiving was man made or not. And NO, most people don't believe aliens interfered history. Those are just seudo and sci-fi ideas from certain groups or individuals , and if aliens did, it much too long ago to even remember, or recorded.

And the history and the idea of sending information, audio, visual, or bits, is none other then the idea of the wire. BASIC CABLE a good example of sending visuals and audios, and has been around for years.




Fibre optics is just much more faster, can send huge amounts of info, and is more digital. The idea of fibre optics is old, but the actual construction or the fruition of the idea, is no more or less then a decade old.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Your Quote >>>>> "Last time I heard the AA theory was only taken seriously by 1% of
the worlds population "


That should tell you something surely? I personally wouldn't risk anything
with those kind of odds !!

Roswell is particularly filled with stands of confusion and differences. Even some of the original main researchers are now throwing stones at each other.

So I don’t think it will be easy to reach consensus...

But we should try because on 2 levels it is important:

One is the Majestic 12 connection. Understand that Roswell is a story attached not only to what Corsi describes in his narrative of the alien technology given to us, but it is also attached to the MJ 12 narrative of Stanley Freidman. So you have the technological aspect of it and the political aspect of it through the MJ 12 story.

Therefore the Roswell incident whether by design or accidental is at the heart of the UFO narrative.

It has tentacles that if exposed as a fraud or revealed as the truth will have ramifications beyond the events in New Mexico.

But keep this in mind. Roswell is only one straw in a basket of thousands of straws.

If Roswell is a red herring then where does it leave Ufology in general?

If the alien crash of 1947 was a non-event and is taken out of the game does everything else crumble around it? If we also dismiss Rendlesham as a Christmas night out in Britain for Americans abroad what are we left with?

Well plenty actually.

Both cases are not the foundations on which Ufology needs to remain standing. Perhaps they are actually holding it back?

Maybe we've been looking in the wrong direction for far too long? Seduced by the blockbuster cases because they are full of action choosing to ignore the 'holes in the plot'.

We only need to find one single case that is 'truly out of this world' to change things forever on this planet. But we can't dismiss that Roswell is a damn good story. That's ultimately our problem.

eletheia
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Your Quote >>>>> "Last time I heard the AA theory was only taken seriously by 1% of
the worlds population "


That should tell you something surely? I personally wouldn't risk anything
with those kind of odds !!

That was before AA tv series on history channel. Today its probably much higher but I haven't checked so I dont know. What is there to risk? People need time to get accustomed to the idea because its too far fetched.

The evidence is not lacking at all!

....
And NO, most people don't believe aliens interfered history. Those are just seudo and sci-fi ideas from certain groups or individuals , and if aliens did, it much too long ago to even remember, or recorded.

Now, let's be honest here. I never said "most people"...I said, exactly, "But many people that are ignorant of the real history mistakenly believe that the only way this could have happened was through "alien" involvement". This is not most people as you claim I said, but a subset of the total population, and of that, a fraction of those that are ignorant of the historic origins of our modern technology and can only attribute the advancement to reverse engineering of alien tech (that nobody can show actual evidence even exists).

Fibre optics is just much more faster, can send huge amounts of info, and is more digital. The idea of fibre optics is old, but the actual construction or the fruition of the idea, is no more or less then a decade old.

With all due respect, the advancement in fiber optics that increased the bandwidth exponentially was the perfecting of the reflective inner lining of the glass fiber that preserved the signal much better with much less signal loss. That happened around the 1960's if I am not mistaken.

reply to post by Willtell




Like every hoax ever perpetrated there is a lot of smoke and mirrors - information
and disinformation by the bucket load ... so briefly :-


MJ 12 was a committee of scientists, military leaders, and government officials
supposedly founded by Harry Truman in 1947, 2 years after WW2, and as I
mentioned in a previous post the various governments were suspicious of each other
and there would have been a lot of sabre rattling and disinformation going on
to see who would hold the 'higher ground'

Harry Truman the said initiator of MJ 12 died in 1972 and it was not till six years after
his death that indications of such a groups existence first appeared in 1978 in
declassified Canadian documents. Another reference to MJ 12 surfaced in 1980, and
was later identified as a hoax. In 1984 yet a further set of documents was discovered
in the US archives closely resembling real declassified documents, but which the
FBI have declared to be "completely bogus"

All the alleged original members of MJ 12 were notable for their Military, Government
or Scientific achievements, and all were deceased when the said documents
surfaced, the last died a few months before the MJ 12 papers first appeared!!
... very convenient!?... No one alive to contest the legitimacy of said documents

A copy of said documents was mailed to British researcher Timothy Good in 1987 from
an anonymous source. Good first reproduced them in his book "Above Top
Secret" (1988) and later judged the documents to be likely fraudulent!

For anyone to believe that any documents that is marked as 'Top Secret' with
Government logo's, and 'for certain eyes only' to be authentic and legitimate ...
THINK AGAIN there is another 'hoaxer' out there I know of who Xeroxed his
countries crest from his passport and made 'Top secret' documents which he sold.
Hoaxing various researchers, and often wearing official military uniforms of high
ranking officers to compound his deceptions.

Harry Truman the said initiator of MJ 12 died in 1972 and it was not till six years after his death that indications of such a groups existence first appeared in 1978 in declassified Canadian documents. Another reference to MJ 12 surfaced in 1980, and was later identified as a hoax. In 1984 yet a further set of documents was discovered in the US archives closely resembling real declassified documents, but which the FBI have declared to be "completely bogus"

reply to post by eletheia



Now if we were doing a formal research operation this would be a milestone.

It is exactly in 1978 when STANTON FRIEDMAN revived the Roswell incident to colossal proportions.

And your post reminds that he was the guy that received, along with a couple other researchers, the MJ 12 documents.

That’s a smoking gun if there ever was one.

It would be interesting to know whether he went on that interview with Marcel because of those documents or the other way around.

Or whoever is behind this information peddling( hoax or not) can be traced by following Friedman and the people around him.

reply to post by eletheia


If the documents were real, and they were, do you really think the government would admit to them being real, rather than attack their legitimacy? You must be very naive or more likely have an agenda to spread misinformation.

The reason they waited for everyone to be deceased, I guess is so that the people involved in MJ12 would a)not be implicated in criminal investigations and/or b)they would not be able to contest anything.
In other words it makes it much easier for everyone that way.

Think again indeed! (rolls eyes)

Timothy Good is a good researcher from everything I have gathered so far, but like many good researchers they fall victim to extortion by evil forces here on earth. People call them nwo, bilderbergers, bankers, illuminati, etc.

There really is a cover up going on and its sad to see so many people support it. Roswell is just one of many crashed saucers being covered up. Many/most of these recovered craft have been taken to secure remote locations, like area 51 and wright patterson afb, to be reverse engineered and to study the physiology of the alien corpses.

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by eletheia

 

If the documents were real, and they were, do you really think the government would admit to them being real, rather than attack their legitimacy? You must be very naive or more likely have an agenda to spread misinformation.

The reason they waited for everyone to be deceased, I guess is so that the people involved in MJ12 would a)not be implicated in criminal investigations and/or b)they would not be able to contest anything.
In other words it makes it much easier for everyone that way.

Think again indeed! (rolls eyes)

Timothy Good is a good researcher from everything I have gathered so far, but like many good researchers they fall victim to extortion by evil forces here on earth. People call them nwo, bilderbergers, bankers, illuminati, etc.

There really is a cover up going on and its sad to see so many people support it. Roswell is just one of many crashed saucers being covered up. Many/most of these recovered craft have been taken to secure remote locations, like area 51 and wright patterson afb, to be reverse engineered and to study the physiology of the alien corpses.

LOL ... (rolls eyes and shakes head .... God how I miss the old emotions!!

I am by no means naïve, I am a realist and have no other agenda other than the truth
I hate (people who's only desire is to believe) being taken in by slick con. artists, and
snake oil salesmen.....

To quote you >> "The reason they waited for everyone to be deceased I guess" ...
guess is the operative word there! and yes they wouldn't want to be called
out for lying. That's how they get away with it .... no one left to contradict their claims ...LOL

There is only one plot which every one of them run with, dressing it up and
putting a different slant on it to fit it into their own individual agendas. Every time
one of these 'hoax's' gets looked into, the same old names rise to the top.
(probably some what reassuring to them all being in like company lol)

I take exception to likening 'Bankers' to evil, my grandson is one! There really is no
cover up going on, 'evil' as you put it is making money from naïve people wanting
to believe by one means or another, and all on the same recycled material.
And again YES Roswell is one of them, along with Lesotho, and the Kalahari .....LOL

I said earlier that I had no axe to grind and it could be said that "God" in his wisdom
led me to ATS to reveal some truths I was given a computer which I had no
idea how to use (LOL I'm still a novice).... I was shown the basics and told
"google is your friend" google anything, click and see what comes up.
So after a few tries I put in the name of someone (not very nice) that I knew, and
couldn't believe the results ... pages and pages of information came up ....
and the lies

I got someone to set me up an account on ATS and the rest is history ..............
'Surely the truth is stranger than fiction'