Roswell: A Red Herring?

The GUT

signalfire
If you want to know how useless Wikipedia is information-wise, just compare their discussion of Lloyd Pye's Starchild Skull with the website itself. All attempts at correcting the record have met with instantaneous coverups and lies. One wonders who actually has access to Wikipedia and what their agenda is, but it's not the truth.

Starchild Skull site

Wiki page

Are you saying the following quote wasn't good?

Brazel told the Roswell Daily Record that he and his son saw a "large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks."[2] He paid little attention to it but returned on July 4 with his son, wife and daughter to gather up the material.

en.wikipedia.org...

Although, ahem, I'll take your word for it that the Starchild site is an unimpeachable and balanced source of information, it has zero to do with this topic, correct?

It's that kind of changing of the subject and ignoring of the facts that we are talking about here. It's not conducive to honest research and is more suited to shoring up one's unsupported opinions and obfuscating the honest search for truth wherever it may lead.

edit on 8-11-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

I wasn't changing the subject, I was demonstrating (for anyone who wants to bother reading both the Starchild Skull site and the Wiki entry on it) that Wikipedia can't be trusted as a source as they appear to have a debunking agenda. Many attempts have been made to correct it and they are all erased.

I've seen many other descriptions of the Roswell crash debris that were far more detailed and anomalous, including claims that the debris field was over a 100 feet across and 3/4 of a mile long and that the initial sampling taken filled a pickup truck and didn't make the tiniest dent in the amount of debris left over... Must have been some weather balloon...

reply to post by The GUT


Evening GUT,

Rendlesham was 33 years ago, Roswell happened 33 years before that. The two most likely cases that draw you in to Ufology before that blanket of confusion falls over your head.

Is it likely we'll get another "poster" UFO story in the near future? The truth is we don't know. But my gut (no pun intended) feeling is that it isn't going to happen.

Say either incident happened again tomorrow there would either be a complete and utter military lockdown or a diversionary cover-up. Perhaps that is actually where the truth really lies in both cases.

If we look at all main bullet points of UFO lore down the years it is of a government cover-up, craft that fly about at tremendous speed with lights ablaze, space brothers telling us to lay down our weapons and look after our planet, then little grey guys wanting to make a hybrid race by abducting us. If you look into it in more depth you wonder about the finer details and why not one iota of real hard evidence has ever come out into the public domain in 66 years to prove any of this.

I'm still wondering. It's not as if the opportunities haven't arisen to get good evidence. But the photographic and video evidence is always "contentious" at best. The best documents are either 'fakes' or not quite giving the game away. The witness testimony is often fantastic but ultimately leaves you with nowhere to go but to believe it or not.

I've come to the conclusion that if ET exists then visits are likely to be very rare (much like our own probes of Mars and the other planets in the solar system), and are probably carried out by intelligent machines rather than biological lifeforms. To me that leaves most UFO cases as simple mistakes of more mundane events, military experiments, mental delusions, exaggeration or lies from attention seekers and possibly something really weird that isn't alien but is not something we can, as yet, understand.

Is Roswell a red herring? I think we may as well ask if it was actually ever a fish?

mirageman
The witness testimony is often fantastic but ultimately leaves you with nowhere to go but to believe it or not.

It would be nice if more (or any) or the witness testimony was directly corroborative. If you have 50 guys out stomping around in a field looking for tin foil, it would be nice to have three of them all say, "Yeah, me and my two buddies were there and we all agree that we did this and saw that." The testimonies all seem so isolated from each other. "I was a lone guard in a hangar and looked under a tarp and saw aliens." What are we supposed to do with that kind of testimony? Believe it without question?

And in the end, like you say, there's nothing to back it up. I still say that if something happened as important as finding aliens crashed in the desert, the sheer volume of paperwork the military would generate in response would be enormous. Literally tons of paperwork that would be impossible to contain. Where is it? Where are the people who wrote it, or typed it up, copied it or telegraphed it?

It's like with the JFK assassination. It's amazing how so many people can seemingly misremember and confuse things, take an insinuation and run crazy with it, or just straight out lie to try and be an important part of the story.

I am still on the fence on Roswell,but i think there are other cases just important, the Cash-Landrum case,when i asked John Alexander about it on the AMA he stated it wasn't ours,so that leads me to believe it was a actually UFO,if it was a foreign craft from another country the military would have been all over it,just helicopters that were see in the area by a number of people and then the Air Force deemed it not important enough to investigate it further,i think it is time to put Roswell to rest and look into other cases

jasmine23
I am still on the fence on Roswell,but i think there are other cases just important, the Cash-Landrum case [...]

It's funny, but as much as I don't care for the value of eyewitness testimony, one of my favorite UFO cases is the Hickson-Parker Pascagoula Abduction case, and that is nothing but anecdotal. I guess I like it because it's something unique. Despite crashed saucers and aliens and so on, Roswell just seems so mundane and unimaginative.

I have always found some of the similarities between the Roswell Story and the Missouri Crash in 1941 to be a bit too similar to completely discount either of them, or completely buy them either. If we are to assume the first crash in 1941 took place and the picture of the alien is authentic (which i still doubt) then it would set a precedent for how the Gov. handled any subsequent alien crashes.

A preacher praying over the bodies of dead aliens after examining a crashed ufo complete with "hieroglyphic style writing could be a linking factor, or an exciting detail added to an interesting story about a mundane crash.

reply to post by The GUT


I think skepticism is fine in dealing with any extraordinary phenomenon as long as it’s balanced by an open mind.

The one thing about Roswell and which may indicate a government op is not only the constant blatant lies the gov has done but the fact that the omnipotent aliens from space DIED in the event.

This may be an op to make them look vulnerable.

The blatant lies are just to call to attention that it was a true UFO event if they are going to such lengths to lie so obviously. The op is to demonstrate that these vaunted aliens aren’t as smart as people think they are if they get killed in accidents just like us humans.

As for Rendlesham

It sounds real but one part I don’t understand is how that guy could have remembered all those 1’s and zeros over time.
He has one hell of a memory.

It's like questioning the bible? But I will go along with this.. I think we never know what happened there, is the truth ?
What of all the myths that we know for so long have really happened ?

It's more like basic instinct to feel what's true or not I think?

signalfire
I've seen many other descriptions of the Roswell crash debris that were far more detailed and anomalous, including claims that the debris field was over a 100 feet across and 3/4 of a mile long and that the initial sampling taken filled a pickup truck and didn't make the tiniest dent in the amount of debris left over... Must have been some weather balloon...

I've seen those descriptions, too, signalfire. Not "many" though. How many first-hand accounts can you source for that? Please do so here or be more careful with sloppy assertions and questionable research skills.

Problem is, they not only contradict each other and the most direct evidence, but they also contradict the initial reports and the pics that Marcel said were real in a way that he couldn't later back out of and retain any credibility.

That doesn't bother you and make you retain some reserve over the blind belief of Roswell being an extraterrestrial event?

Over the years, I have read a ton of books and seen a ton of documentaries all discussing Roswell, and after absorbing, and reabsorbing all the different testimonies from different witnesses, (quoted from), It gives the feeling that it happened and was indeed not from earth.

Sure a lot of the tales are told by independent witnesses, but there are so many, and they encompass different themes, of which, the themes having multiple testimonies in each of them.. I feel they can't all be untrue..

The clinchers for me are the stories of people being threatened by military that were in Roswell in a very final way, (illegally by the way),
but this has never stopped those with the power to abuse authority.. Stories of people involved that turned up missing with no one (in the military) willing to even discuss this, after the fact..

I would bet my life that Roswell was a real event involving extraterrestrials just because of the types of people that were witnesses back then.. Church going farmers like my long gone grandparents just do not make stuff up, or lie... Ever..

0bserver1
It's like questioning the bible? But I will go along with this.. I think we never know what happened there, is the truth ?
What of all the myths that we know for so long have really happened ?

It's more like basic instinct to feel what's true or not I think?

Best answer so far, but credit also to the poster who mentioned Cash-Landrum. They sued the American government, and they lost, a travesty of the law IMO, (Governments don't carry insurance BTW, you have to sue) So if Roswell did happen, all that is needed to do is change the story now and again, and in the meantime ridicule the characters involved.

The GUT

signalfire
I've seen many other descriptions of the Roswell crash debris that were far more detailed and anomalous, including claims that the debris field was over a 100 feet across and 3/4 of a mile long and that the initial sampling taken filled a pickup truck and didn't make the tiniest dent in the amount of debris left over... Must have been some weather balloon...

I've seen those descriptions, too, signalfire. Not "many" though. How many first-hand accounts can you source for that? Please do so here or be more careful with sloppy assertions and questionable research skills.

Problem is, they not only contradict each other and the most direct evidence, but they also contradict the initial reports and the pics that Marcel said were real in a way that he couldn't later back out of and retain any credibility.

That doesn't bother you and make you retain some reserve over the blind belief of Roswell being an extraterrestrial event?

'Operation mincemeat' launched in 1943 was one of the most successful war time
deceptions ever attempted. Masterminded by Charles Cholmondeley and Ewen
Montague. The plan involved the dead body of a tramp and a plethora of faked
documents, by convincing the Germans that the Allies planned to attack Greece
instead of Sicily. That incident changed the course of WW2! .......SO as

The events at Roswell happened two years after WW2 and I think countries were
still twitchy in the aftermath of war. Germany was occupied by the Allies, and the
'cold war' had begun .... I suppose there would have been much flexing of muscle
power and sabre rattling by all of them .... So any 'deceptive diversion' would be
a plus to any of the countries that could carry it off? ............Maybe that's where
Roswell came in!!......



www.bbc.co.uk...

alienreality
Over the years, I have read a ton of books and seen a ton of documentaries all discussing Roswell, and after absorbing, and reabsorbing all the different testimonies from different witnesses, (quoted from), It gives the feeling that it happened and was indeed not from earth.

Those would obviously seem, then, to be the pro-Roswell books and biased documentaries by the likes of Randle, Carey, Moore, and Friedman it would seem? Unless you can demonstrate otherwise? Do you only give truck to what you want to hear, or have you considered the equally valid and well-researched critiques?

I would bet my life that Roswell was a real event involving extraterrestrials just because of the types of people that were witnesses back then.. Church going farmers like my long gone grandparents just do not make stuff up, or lie... Ever..

I would totally agree that "church-going farmers" are often the salt of the earth and extra-ordinarly believable. Can you list those witnesses and their qualifications here? Or are you demonstrating the point of this thread regarding poor research and baseless assertions?

Its certainly healthy to be skeptical.

Did'nt the Other Roswell thread have evidence that Brazel was forced by the military to change his story from Crashed saucer and "They're Not Green" dead little men to, bits of sticks, foil and Christmas tape?.

You know.....There are people even now (or especially now), that say the WW2 Holocaust did not happen, and is Allied propaganda? And, The Japanese history books mention Nothing of the Japanese Imperial army murdering 10 million Chinese in the 1930s-40s. Young Japanese people still think it was aggressive USA that started a war against Japan.

So who really knows what happened? Those that did are all dead. Any written document can easily disappear or be rewritten...and that "Foreign" stuff could easily "Never Exist" or be filtered to US companies in the guise of "New Government tech experiments", and no-one would be the wiser... because..
The Government Never Lies!!....

reply to post by The GUT

I believe, but I'm picky. So my two major questions are:

1.) Am I relatively alone on this at ATS?

2.) Am I wrong to question these sacred cows of ufology? Does that somehow make me "less than?"

I'm 100% convinced that the debris field was project Mogul debris.
You are not wrong nor "less than".

I'm also very dubious about the Rendlesham forest incident.
I once was intrigued and thought this incident might be more
credible, but ever since the 'alien code' material, I've lost
all interest in that embellishment.

Any time someone receives a 'message from aliens' and the
gist of it is either that the world's in danger and that we
should do something about it (no $+*&^&^ Sherlock), or that
"God is love", then I know the "Alien communication is not
alien at all).

Frankly, I'd be surprised if even 1/10 of 1% of alien/ufo
reports were actually extraterrestrial in nature. Now
that does leave quite a few incidents. But I'm not a
"cheap date".

KPB

The GUT

I've seen those descriptions, too, signalfire. Not "many" though. How many first-hand accounts can you source for that? Please do so here or be more careful with sloppy assertions and questionable research skills.

Problem is, they not only contradict each other and the most direct evidence, but they also contradict the initial reports and the pics that Marcel said were real in a way that he couldn't later back out of and retain any credibility.

Official story is contradictory too...it changed, remember Skyhook, in itself a standing joke of the day where you sent an apprentice out to buy a skyhook?

Then there is the other thing, the debris field, how many hands were involved in that?

The thing is there is no way that the OSS would not have known about Russian nuclear experiments on the ground through their intelligence, never mind some dicks throwing up balloons with microphones.

gort51
because...The Government Never Lies!!....

Yeah, like, "We have a crashed saucer!"

"Knight knew what most people only vaguely suspected -- that Intelligence Agencies engage in both the collection of valid signals (information) and the promiscuous dissemination of fake signals (disinformation). They collected the information so that they could form a fairly accurate picture of what was really going on; they spread the disinformation so that all their competitors would form grossly inaccurate pictures. They did this because they knew that whoever could find out what the hell was really going on possessed an advantage over those who were misinformed, confused and disoriented.

This game had been invented by Joseph Fouche, who was the chief of the secret police under Napoleon. British Intelligence very quickly copied all of Fouche's tactics, and surpassed them...by the time of the First World War, Intelligence Agencies everywhere had created so much disinformation and confusion that no two historians ever were able to agree on why the war happened, and who double-crossed whom...
By the time of the Second World War, the "Double-Cross System" had been invented -- by British Intelligence, of course. This was the products of such minds as Alan Turing, a brilliant homosexual mathematician who (when not working in espionage) specialized in creating logical paradoxes other mathematicians couldn't solve, and Ian Fleming, whose fantasy life was equally rich (as indicated by his later James Bond books), and Dennis Wheatley, a man of exceptionally high intelligence who happened to believe that an international conspiracy of Satanists was behind every conspiracy he didn't invent himself.

By the time Turing, Fleming, Wheatley and kindred British intellects had perfected the Double-Cross System, the science of lying was almost as precise as Euclidian geometry, and nearly as lovely to the detached observer.

What the Double-Cross experts had invented was the practical political applications of the Strange Loop. In logic or cybernetics, a Strange Loop is a set of propositions that, while valid at each point, is so constructed that it leads to an unresolvable paradox. The Double-Cross people drove the Germans bonkers by inventing disinformation systems that, if believed, were deceptive, but if doubted led to a second disinformation system. They enjoyed this work so much that, at times, they invented Triple Loops...

These Strange Loops functioned especially well because the Double-Cross experts had early on fed the Germans the primordial Strange Loop. "Most of your agents are working for us and feeding your Strange Loops."
Many German agents, it later turned out, had managed to collect quite a bit of accurate information about the Normandy invasion, but many others turned in equally plausible information about a fictitious Norwegian invasion; and all of them were under suspicion, anyway. German Intelligence might as well have made its decisions by tossing a coin in the air."
--Robert Anton Wilson

www.skilluminati.com...

gort51
Did'nt the Other Roswell thread have evidence that Brazel was forced by the military to change his story from Crashed saucer and "They're Not Green" dead little men to, bits of sticks, foil and Christmas tape?.

What is the evidence for that evidence then? Brazel was pretty clear very early on: Sticks, foil, rubber.

smurfy
Then there is the other thing, the debris field, how many hands were involved in that?

I give...how many?